i am looking at this because, this might sound dumb but, it will fit very nicely in my rack....and since i am a light weight, i will be able to handle it with ease...price is similiar to 950/770 combo...there HAS to be some very good opinions out there...initially guys you suggested that i explore all areas...so thats what i'm doing....patiently awaiting feedback!!!

The TGIII lists for four times the amount of the 950! It is a better unit in appearance, features, and sonics but of course it should be for the difference in price.

There's a pretty lengthy review of the Sunfire at Secrets that was posted just this week. The Grand III is definitely in a different price bracket than the 950 (with an MSRP of $3495, it's closer to the Anthem AVM-20 or Krell Showcase than the 950).

The Sunfire no doubt can offer superior sonics, and the reviewer at Secrets seemed very pleased with the "holographic imaging" processing for two-channel material. It also offers several additional features for those who need them, and some of the user interface features sound pretty slick. The signal acquisition time may actually be longer than the 950's, based on the Secrets review (he indicated that it typically took 3 to 4 seconds, which could make channel surfing with satellite a bit of a headache for some people -- and I haven't read the manual yet to see if there's a way to "lock" an input's format). I think if I were looking at a $3,000+ pre/pro, I'd look very closely at the Sunfire and the AVM-20. After reading the review (and with no other experience with the Sunfire than the review and Sunfire's web page), I did see a few possible drawbacks to it. Personally, I prefer being able to assign digital inputs to sources -- more flexibility, even if it does possibly make initial setup a little more complex (one more step). Also, I prefer having the display tell me what processing mode is being used rather than having an LED light up next to a silkscreened label on the faceplace. Little stuff, but they reminded me of the lengthy debates we've had here about the 950's user interface and made me wonder if some users would end up disappointed.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I think he's talking about the new sunfire receiver:

http://www.sunfire.com/products/ultimatereceiver.shtml

Never heard it myself

I've never heard it either, but I found at least one place online selling it for $3,300 (retail is $4,000 or $4,200). Still a bit pricier than a 950/770, but not as far away as the Grand III plus a seven-channel amp.

There's a review of it here that I just sort of skimmed. It sounds like a piece of gear worth demo'ing if it's within the budget, but I don't know how good a price a brick & mortar Sunfire dealer would offer.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

your right..i was looking at the receiver the sunfire ultimate...can get it for about $3200...prior considerations that i have excluded are the denon 5803 and yamaha rx-z1..so now it is narrowed down to these two..950/770 or sunfire ultimate receiver..by the way..you guys are great!! this forum is a big plus for my decision making..

I have listened to both the Sunfire TG3 and the Outlaw 950 on the same audiophile reference grade system. If you like the effect of Bob Carver's "Sonic Holography," you will really like the TG3. There are some other great features too, especially relating to movie viewing and listening.

If you are primarily interested in music, and a stereo purist, who occasionally will use DPL2 (or DTS Neo, etc.), I believe the Outlaw 950 deserves much more credit than it sometimes gets when compared to more expensive A/V pre-pros. In stereo bypass, playing CD's or high resolution disks on a player capable of upsampling, the 950 is in the same transparency ballpark, in fact the same batters box as the others. The bass management control of the 950 is just as capable.

The 6-channel bypass mode is also first rate. The base management solution is very good for most users, but I suspect many others (bosobase in particular) could find more creative and adjustable algorithms that would be at least as good as the triple crossover system the 950 uses for multi-channel digital sources. Regardless, it is also as transparent as the two channel bypass mode.

i've been a fan of bob carver for 30 years and have owned (and still own) phase linear and carver pieces, and also like the sunfire line.

at the CES show, the sunfire listening room was, to me, one of the most impressive sound-wise. (though, those 'rooms' are all sound treated and rigged with the best of everything to insure the best performance of the pieces shown.)

yes...i'm unusually fanatic about the low end of sound reproduction. i designed and commisioned my own bass guitar and waited 15 months for it to be built to exacting specifications due to years of hearing my work be butchered live and in the studio. i've heard many, many playback systems over the years.

this is what i like most about my 950. the low end is warm, full, accurate and CLEAN. i tweak a very sophisticated discrete LFE discrete RB system i designed and had built, but, any given system only has the ability to tweak what it receives.

also, the midrange is nuetral and the highs are remarkably detailed. it has all formats. it's simple enough to operate (and if any part of the 950's navigation quirks confound you, you have this forum...a BIG plus). it's cost is truly amazing. it's warranty (which is fanatically backed by outlaw, and, therefore MEANS something) is one of the best.

after 35 years of stereo (vinyl and tape) and 20 years of cd, i'm way past ready to move on, so, i practically never listen to it. i therefore, have no opinion about the 950's abilities in this area.

however, when it comes to multi-channel (dts-cd, dts, dd, sacd, dvd-a), i can't say enough good about the outlaw 950. i hesitate to recommend any product or company because it can erode your credibility for zero profit, but i highly recommend the 950 to anyone...often!

preamp/amp is better than receiver and amps are getting smaller, better and cheaper every minute, which makes this more true each year, to me.

finally, in my posts, i use the word 'system' often. the entire chain from source to speaker and placement, calibration and room are all equally important to multi-channel listening enjoyment.

from production to engineering to software to placement to calibration to fanatical tweaks of every kind (heck, we even have a world-class conductor around here, someplace), the saloon will help you maximize your purchase in every way.

bob carver is a very cool guy and sunfire makes great products...but...the 950/770, all things considered, is the winner...buy it.

Cappy,

I think the Outlaw 770 amp will smoke just about every flagship receiver...receiver amps are limited in performance, primarily because of the difficulty of shielding massive 200 wpc amps within the same chassis and the preamp section. Most 200x5 amps are 70-100 lbs and require massive heat sinks. However, the Sunfire amps use different technology from other solid state amp mfgs and run super/duper cool. The Sunfire Cinema Grand I does 200x5 and weighs only ~ 40lbs. To this end, Sunfire is the one company that can make a receiver with amps not much different from their separate power amps.

And most people don't use more than 50 watts anyway

amplification headroom is for clean reproduction of transients, not loudness. more is better...period.

bob carver is a great guy to talk to (or read) on this subject.