Jed,

You make a good point, and one that I am trying to make. It seems like alot of Outlaw supporters have no problem saying that the 950 has the same sonics as 3-4k prepros (which we see over and over), when they themselves can't validate this. Seems like a little like "follow the crowd" mentality.

And sure, like most A vs B vs C comparisons, there would be a few who have tried B&C and pick Outlaw; but there are many others who would pick B&C over Outlaw.

I do know three friends and dealers, people I have met in person, who have owned the Outlaw or AT clone and say it performs well for its price, but not as good as other gear they own...two preamp/prepro models which I have owned and can judge personally. Two comments were "the AT prepro was good, but its no Aragon or Sunfire" ...and "good for HT, but $500 preamp is much better for 2 channel...and this preamp is not as good as the AVM20"

OK, I'm in the game...
I just received my blue dot 950 (swap) with the LFE fix. It was delivered to my office, and before I could get it home, I thought I would bring it by a B&W speaker dealer that I work with regularly.

You see... I am not an audio engineer, but a simple architect who schleps a living designing studios and home theaters for some really knowledgeable clients. I also design churches, and other audio and video performance spaces on a regular basis. To paraphrase Kevin C. Brown in another thread recently, "Speaker placement can have more effect than a lot of high priced equipment." That is true, and the rooms audio characteristics are also huge factors that can limit the potential of the most expensive and/or spectacular equipment. So... on to the dealer showroom, with a very good demo space, and a pair of B&W Nautilus 800's. Alan Parsons uses B&W N800's in his studio, and he paid for them.

Before hooking up the 950, we listened to the Sunfire TG3, a Lexicon MC-12B, a top end McIntosh (can't recall the model), and the Meridian 568.2 (the el-cheap-o $7,500 Meridian Pre-Pro). We limited our listening to 2 channel only, and mostly in by-pass (or equivalent) modes. We all thought the Lexicon was the king of the hill, and by the way... the most expensive on the hill. All sounded good, as none of these high priced pre-pro's were lacking seriously in any category, but the Sunfire was the one unit that price being equal, we would have left an orphan.

We then hooked up the 950, with its' philistine neophyte unbalanced RCA outputs. You see, I have been threatening my speaker dealer friend for some time that I would do this... bring in this "sold over the internet" piece of equipment that he will not let me mention in his store in the presence of other potential customers, except my own clients. Well he and the other sales staff had heard of Outlaw, but never heard Outlaw equipment, so they were curious.

There are some general rules of thumb I use to determine the interest level of people in a particular piece of equipment, and they are...
1) how soon they go for the volume to crank it up,
2) how long they leave the volume cranked,
3) if after cranking, they turn it down, way down, and listen for dynamic characteristics at low listening levels, and...
4) for how long they just stare at the box.

After about 20 minutes, both listening and staring, my friend, who has sold over $70,000 worth of equipment to my clients in the past year, made me box up the 950 and go home. It was 4:00 PM, and some real customers were probably on their way.

Before I left, we spoke about the business of selling "quality". "Some things are just not priced high enough" to convince people it is worth their time and attention," he said. "People need to feel good about the sale; that they have got something special." He said that he felt that the Meridian had qualities that were clearly better... About the 950, he and the other sales staff agreed it made the system sing, and that is no small achievement. These speakers (N800's), and the two Classe amps (bi-amp configuration) expose every flaw in the supporting cast of equipment. "I have heard a lot of well respected components sound like sh**t on this system; this Outlaw passes," and then he just smiled.


[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited March 30, 2003).]

AGAssarsson,

Good demo, and it seems like you prefer the Outlaw over the Sunfire TG3. A friend/dealer of mine carries AT and certainly would take the Sunfire/Aragon over the AT clone. I think there are more like him than like you.

Smart Little Lena,

Are you Mary? I am sorry that my posts have inflicted grave pain on you. Enjoy your first 5.1 system!



[This message has been edited by Ricky (edited March 30, 2003).]

Maybe there are a lot more of them than me... or us for that matter.
I used to own a Sunfire TG2, and have had Carver equipment dating back to the early 80's.
The Sunfire TG3 is great, but to my ears, just not significantly better than the 950. In the listening session described above, no one in that room would say the 950 was clearly better than the Sunfire, but it did not get knocked out of the room either. All of us said it held its own against some very stiff competition. This is the point you seem to have trouble with. It was comparable if not always just as spectacular to the other equipment in the room.

I am not a slave to economics, so if I wanted a Sunfire TG3 bad enough, it would be mine. In terms of pure sonic performance, the differences between the two pre-pro's are simply not so striking. In my experience, this opinion is not restricted to Outlaw owners only.

On the other hand, if the Lexicon MC-12B costs a dollar, or $12,000, it is still demonstrably superior to either the 950 or the Sunfire. The Lexicon is clearly a more qualified piece of equipment, and the additional cost could be considered to have actual value above and beyond the wow factor sought by so many pseudo-audiophiles. But it is just not fair to compare the Sunfire to a Lexicon, after all it costs so much more. That's just not fair...

By the way, his screen name is Soundhound, not Soundhog. When my speech emulation software malfunctions, it too sometimes makes some hapless mistakes. Sometimes it is just too much fun to beat a piñata to stop after just a few posts. Hockey anyone?

[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited March 31, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited March 31, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited March 31, 2003).]

Uhmmmm THEY DON'T HAVE A LIFE???

Ricky, sorry but I couldn't help but point out this GLARING logic fault in your point......

You specifically request Basically, you're stating here that our opinions aren't valid unless we've tried other processors in OUR systems (emphasis yours). (Aside: The only other processor I've had is the Sherwood Newcastle AV-P9080 which I thought was equivalent to the 950 in 5.1 modes, but the Outlaw bests it with DPL-II, DTS:NEO, onboard analog crossover, triple crossover for digital).

Then you turn around and tell us that (emphasis mine) See the dichotomy here?

We're not allowed to come to a conclusion unless we've heard whatever other processor on our systems.

However, you are allowed to make conclusions based on hearing the Outlaw 950 on other systems, based on your extensive expereince with other non-950 products?

How is that fair?

------------------
Philip Hamm

[This message has been edited by Philip Hamm (edited March 31, 2003).]

AGAssarsson,

That 568v2 must rock. According to one Meridian dealer, Lexicon and Theta are competing for 4th place in the prepro world....behind Meridian, Meridian, and Meridian....that is the 861, 568v2, and 561

Phillip,

My comment on listening to the 950 on three occasions is in context to Kevin's 950 vs Anthem demo in someone's elses system. Funny, but you do emphasis one point I am trying to make. Even BEFORE the 950 shipped, many people (especially on HTF) were already comparing it to 3-4k prepros. Tell me how this isn't a glaringly bold belief?

And you acknowledge that the Outlaw is no better than the Sherwood in 5.1 sonics. I don't know how you can make the jump to say that these other 3-4k prepros would not sound better than either. I had the Sherwood, it is really no better than the Nakamichi AV10 receiver, HK Signature 2.0, and a variety of older decoders in 5.1. And I would put the Sherwood a step behind the Lexicons, Onkyo 989, and Aragons in 5.1 sonics. All the current 3-4k prepros have the new modes.

"Enjoy your first 5.1 system!" Thank you. I just hope you enjoyed your first.

But I pic you as an unlaid ghost. Ceaselessly searching. Some say …the journeys the thing. I had a 5.0 before anyone ever coined the term Home Theater. Something my husband rigged, but we were late to the party on DTS, and DD. 5.1. Switching to separates, gaining the latest DSP modes and adding .1 for action/adventure was a very nice upgrade.

Are you Mary? yes, and quite contrary.

I am sorry that my posts have inflicted grave pain on you. What [must] you think of my pain threshold! I have been known to politely ask someone to open a car door that they closed on my thumb without a whimper. I have had two children. This is simply my childish side displaying a loss of patience.
Ricky, I believe I [see] yours hearts desire. What burns you is not that the 950 is a fine pre-pro for the money. What you worry like a dog with a bone, is your campaign to force us into an admission of our proper place in the AV hierarchy. . Owners of a 900-dollar pre-pro, have the sheer effrontery to state they would or could prefer the 950 over units costing more?!

Okay, you twisted my arm long enough. NO THE 950 (fingers crossed behind my back) is NOT as good as something that COSTS more! UNCLE UNCLE.

Seriously Ricky… do you think it profitable to you? (or likely) that 950 owners who have made their choice for various and sundry reasons, would capitulate to your insistence that some 950 owners are misinformed when they conclude they got more bang for their buck, and prefer the unit over more expensive? If I held your opinion that it was not as good or better I should not or would not, own one.

I noted that you stated many times in other forums you feel you have helped countless people with their purchases. Ricky, if we’re on occasion rude or impatience with you,(And I am truly sorry). This may be due to the fact that the forums idealy should be profitable to all to advance their knowledge, exchange information, compare units and spread the joy. It is exactly when they are at their best, while people, - for the sheer delight of sharing do so graciously and generously to help others. When it gets ugly in the forums is when some decide that others have no Equal right to preferences. Would you rather be a beggar in any 950 thread, than a prince in your own castle? Alright!!! Come in have an Outlaw margarita, (sometimes known as “green Kool-Aid” ) Relax, enjoy the sounds (any sounds).

Since you asked again: in answer to #2.
If Owners of other units, do not feel while listening to their purchase that it sounds better than it costs? Dare I say,------ there might be something amiss?


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited March 31, 2003).]

Like AGAssarsson I, too, am in the game....

Just received my new 950/7100 combo roughly 2 weeks ago-- and so far my only regret is that I'm not independently wealth enough to spend more time listen/lookin' to this new combo than working.

This is not my first 5.1 but the first was definitely low-fi. Listened to many, if not most of the pre/pros all of you mentioned, but, alas, I couldn't afford them. Then, just in the nick-of-time the posse (in the form of Outlaw Audio) showed up. Not only were they affordable for me, they were willing to do what no dealer has ever offered-- listen to them and if not satisfied they'll refund them. Yes-- I could listen to them IN MY HOUSE to see? hear how they do!!!

Hope that soundhound gaff on Rick's part was a typo (also glad I didn't do it).

Ditto Smart Little Lena's posting.

Can't help it. I like Outlaw. That's how I feel.

------------------

Well, I saw that, but I just prefer to pick my battles wisely (I wish some government officials would do the same...)

Ricky:

I didn't get into this in my original post, but I think it bears mentioning. I work professionally in the motion picture industry with soundtrack music. I have done the mixing and mastering of the music in a lot movies you undoubtedly have in your DVD library - my name is in their credits. I use the 950 as part of my studio, and it is without a doubt and unquestionably up to the demands I require of it. It is sonically transparent enough to use for my work.

I could purchase any pre/pro I want - the equipment I use is all capital expenditure anyway. I chose the Outlaw 950 because of it's transparency and no-nonsense functionality. The fact that they bend over backwards to make their customers happy doesn't hurt either. I wouldn't touch some of the even extremely expensive pre/pros out there simply because they are either flawed soncially or place more emphasis on looks than performance.

I sincerely hope you find a pre/pro that meets your own high standards.