Ricky, why does the 950 consume you like it does? It seems really weird. But either way, welcome back to the forum.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited March 30, 2003).]

Thanks Jed for the welcome.

First, let me state that if I were spending $3k NEW for a 7.1 setup, the 950/770 combo would be at the top of my list. Second, if I was offered a 60k Lexus instead of a 20k Honda Accord, I, like most folks, would sell the Lexus and buy an Accord. But I wouldn't consider the Accord as good as the Lexus.

Maybe you 950 owners can humor me and do two things. Forget about what everyone says, or what you read. Just you, the individual.

1) List all the 5.1 capable processors that you've had in YOUR system.

2) Why you think you would be "indifferent" sonically to having a current $3-4k prepro instead of the 950 (ie: Anthem AVM20, B&K Ref50, Sunfire TheaterIII, Integra RDC7, Aragon Stage One).

[This message has been edited by Ricky (edited March 30, 2003).]

Ricky-

#2) This is a pointless question as we've already haggled on at HTF. No one is going to trade me the 950 even up for a $3k-$4k processor, so what is the point? There *are* other reasons to own a piece of equipment. In terms of the recent "lack of LFE with DTS-ES" problem the 950 has, I have actually decided that I *would* keep the 950 even if a $3-$4k processor was *given* to me. (I *have* been heavily looking at the B&K.) Know why? Because I really like Outlaw's business model, and their truly excellent customer service. Besides, I am somewhat of a heretic anyway, because I *also* truly believe that a well designed $500 receiver-as-a-pre/pro can compete on sonics alone with $3-$4k processors. I personally do not and have never believed that there are large audio quality differences between quality designed and built electronics. I can create a larger difference in sonics in my system by simply moving my speakers than by swapping pre/pros.

And, I don't know if you realize this or not, but it is actually very common practice in practically any review I've read over the years, that any good piece of eqp *is* compared with those costing a lot more. Just because a component costs more, doesn't automatically mean it will perform any differently.

1) Yamaha DSP-E1000, Yamaha RX-V793 receiver-as-a-pre/pro, Sony TA-E9000ES, Outlaw 950. And I'll also add that I've had Adcom and Nakamichi analog 2 channel preamps as well, so I certainly know what good "sound quality" is.

"1) List all the 5.1 capable processors that you've had in YOUR system.

Hi Ricky, I’ll try to be careful here as I type, sometimes something I’m saying laughingly or earnestly, when I compose print, I will reread later, shocked at the tone of it.

This question of yours bothers me. Why? It’s a valid question. Especially when enthusiast are gathering and telling war stories but taken in the context of the agenda I think you have, it sounds arrogant to me. I have sensitivity for condescending remarks which some months, (not always..I’m generally happy go lucky easy going and calm) more than others, - set my teeth on edge. Not because I don’t respect authority, experience, seasoning in any field, (I'd be an utter fool NOT to respect it and glean all I can), - but it gets tedious when you’re a female or male and the neophyte in any undertaking.

I am a neophyte in AV, the 950/770 is the first 5.1 system I’ve been responsible for purchasing. I mix up my terminology, I loose track of what seems like an unending flow of new facts to log concerning DSP, BM, you name it …I have trouble grasping it, I grasp it…then mix it up and get it backwards. But my subjective ears are as good as yours are. Will I learn [nuance] will my ear train, will I pass through the effects of sensory overload from adding multi-surround sound and SW’s and become more sensitive to the tiny increments in performance of NF, Mids, highs, lows, where and when a particular unit rolls off. Certainly, if I pay attention and stay at it. And my ‘tastes’ will change during this process. But if I can’t ‘hear’ a good prepro with a minimum of experience. How is it I can ‘hear’ loudspeakers and decide instantly, they have more range than these or those (and be backed very often by those with much experience there). I have noticed you like it well documented that you have the used-lot pricing dollar amounts memorized, and that you’ve rotated many and various units through your system. I’m not referring to my experience at ‘in home demo’ it really isn’t a practical argument or valid at all times for many consumers who will rely and make choices on what they hear at the dealers when out listening, even after being in AV for years.

What you prefer, is still your ‘hype’ and no less so than my opinion (hype) about how happy I’ve been with the purchase currently of the capable sound of my 950.

I don't like it when I hear a tone of intimadation by those in these forums who have had time to memorize specs, and years of experience. Sure I’ll make mistakes and sure I’ll slap the wall a time or two and hopefully I will learn as I go. And I do listen to ALL of you , or else you could accuse me of being embedded in opinionated concrete with no hope of ever advancing and acquiring new skills . What bothers me about your question is the context in which you use it. You seem to be hoping to attempt to imply that some/many/all Outlaw owners are not possessed of your self declared ‘qualifications’ or experience level. (others may not 'read you' this way, I speak only for myself). I shall continue to trust my own instincts, commonsense, and in this case…. ears, while respecting and trying to learn from those who have gone before. But I’d be willing to bet if I had your exact experience, purchases, and time in AV under my belt, twin mirrored to yours, my subjective ears would have caused me to make some alternative and different selections than yours. That does not make mine right or yours wrong.

Ricky I’m jealous of your ‘experience’ and do not wish to make light of it, but what your up too, well forgive me for my cynicism that anyone who spends so much time chasing Outlaw threads has an agenda that has nothing at all to do with sound. “Forget about what everyone says, or what you read” I do when I finally make my choices, - that’s me and I am the individual.

Smart Little Lena,

I respect your comments, but do not understand how they are applicable to my two questions. I never said the Outlaw sucked or was not a good product?

The topic was whether or not the Outlaw 950 is "straight up" as good as current 3-4k prepros, like the 5 models I listed. Others say that since I never owned the 950, my comments are off base. Well, why can't I turn the tables and ask the reverse? I mean, to say a $20k Honda Accord is as good as 60k models, one should have some personal experience with some 60k models, right? I mean, isn't it MORE arrogant to say that a product is as good as others 3-4X the price then vice versa? So I will stick with asking people to humor me with my two questions.

Ricky:

All products have their compromises, either in parts quality, fit and finish, or features. The designer's job is to create a product that hits the best balance of these compromises for a given price point. The way a product is marketed also plays a huge part in the final cost of a product to the consumer.

Everybody has their own opinions on what aspect of a product is of greatest importance to them. To some, it is the pure performance of the product. To others, it is the look and style of the product. To most it is a combination of both of these.

The Outlaw business model of direct to consumer sales knocks a huge amount off the price right off the bat. The packaging, while very good and substantial, is nowhere as expensive to produce as that of 1/2" thick billet aluminum faceplate products. The electronic circuits inside are to a very high spec, and are generally as good as anything out there.

This is not to say that there are not comprimises - there have to be. The point however is that in the case of the 950, the decisions on where to make the compromises have been made very wisely, and the weight has been given to sonic performance over "features & flash".

Now, this set of priorities may not matter much to you (they probably don't), and there are many other companies out there that will be more than happy to take your money, and in doing so, satisfy your particular needs.

The Outlaw 950 has almost all of the sonic performance of preamps in the $3,000 range. It does not have the titanium anodized faceplate and balanced output connectors they have, but personally this does not matter to me. The only titanium I care about is on the muffler of my motorcycle.

Challenging someone to defend the 950 directly against ("Straight Up") a $3,000 preamp is a pretty pointless exercise in my opinion, about as pointless as defending that my wife as prettier than yours. There's more to life, and precious little time to explore it all.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited March 30, 2003).]

i'll take the lex mc12b. straight up trade, that is.

the rest of those you mention...no.

i'll wait for outlaw...the next generation and pay the asking price.

i don't have to have a reason.

Ricky, I will answer your questions but first I would like you to humor me with my question
Why is it that you do not need to have a processor in YOUR system to judge it correctly, but I do? Just curious.
And you are most certainly welcome for the welcome (that sounds strange).

soundhog,

I guess you are kinda answering my Q2. You make some good points to account for some of the price differences. The 950 would probably retail 1300-1500 as-is in a B&M. How expensive the faceplates and balanced connections would vary quite a bit, it depends on which model. IMO, most of the balanced connections are more external connectors than the more expensive true balanced, dual-differential circuitry inside.

If you say life is too short for this seemingly simple "pointless to defend against 3-4k prepro" exercise, then why did the Outlaw thread on HTF go to 90+ posts? In a similiar, and much shorter, HTF thread on the Rotel 1066 vs 3-4k prepros, several Rotel 1066 acknowledged that the other prepros were better sonically, especially in 2 channel, but they choose their 1066s for price/performance (not straight up).

bossobass,

So 3-4k prepros is not enough competition for your 950, so you would only take a 10k prepro staightup? And for no apparent reason?

you got it right, ricky...except for the 'no apparent reason' part.