So are you conceding that you're offering a double standard? You certainly aren't refuting it. I have no idea what kind of crazy logic leads you to your sentence "you do emphasis one point I am trying to make.". You're putting words in my mouth, BIGTIME here. WHen did I write that it was "no better" than the Sherwood? I believe the word I used was "equivalent", which means that they sound about the same to me. "No Better" strongly implies that the Outlaw sounds worse than the Sherwood, something I NEVER WROTE nore INTENDED. When did I make that jump? Once again you're accusing me of something I never wrote and never claimed based on some faulty logic in your head that tells you that since some people made such a comment then that must mean all Outlaw users believe that.

Personally I've heard some pretty serious shit at my local dealer's place, and at my friend Phil's house here in VA. And I can tell you that years of playing in rock bands affected my ears to the point that what I've got right now is probably serious overkill for me. For my purposes, the Outlaw probably does sound as good as a multi-$$$ processor.

------------------
Philip Hamm

[This message has been edited by Philip Hamm (edited March 31, 2003).]

Going on the assumption that the 950 performs as well as pre-pros costing 3 times as much, it should be almost impossible for Outlaw to improve upon the 950..After all the 950 is at the pinnicle of cost/performance right ? spend any more and your just wasting your money. I wonder what the marketing slogo will be on the next generation-(maybe it will compete with 20,000 pre-pros sonically)

JT- Aahhh, but there's still the question of *features* and ergonomics which most 950 owners will admit can be improved on:

1) Me personally? I want non-mono rears a la THX Ultra2, Logic 7.
2) Separate distance/delay setting for the rears.
3) No double bass ever, at all.
4) Fix the phase difference in the sub output between using the digital and analog crossovers.
5) Fix the problem with lack of all channel test signal or output from the 5.1 analog in *if* you're switching from a "stereo" mode prior.
6) Distance setting to the sub.
7) Setting in the config for inverting the output to the sub.
8) Separate settings in the config for LFE level *and* crossed over info from the mains. (LFE "mix".)
9) Adjustable high pass on the LFE signal alone.
10) Separate level cals for DD/DTS vs say CD.
11) Fancier faceplate.
12) Ability to edit the names in the display for the inputs.

Etc, etc, etc. Most of these have nothing to do with sonics, or at least there are more involved "workarounds," but I'd pay more for 'em.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited March 31, 2003).]

I mirror what Kevin said, but I would also add
1. A usable, or more usable second zone.
2. I would also like more future proof audio/video switching like dvi, firewire, or even 3 to 4 component.
3. Software upgradeable.

Ricky I think you value money too much as a social status. When you ask us if any of us would trade a 900 dollar pre/pro straight up for a 3k or 4k one it implies that that we can't afford them. Don't assume we can't afford more expensive, or in your terms "better", but remember some people are rich because they are better and smarter at spending their money. Just food for thought. You don't happen to own a Bose Waveradio do you?

it should be almost impossible for Outlaw to improve upon the 950.. I wonder what the marketing slogo will be on the next generation



Outlaw Press Release: Due to the great demand among forums, Outlaw is announcing their improved model 950, to which we have added one of the few lacking features which many have been clamoring for.
We are proud to announce a Cost Increase to add greater usability to the 950. We have engineered this latest feature after much intensive research regarding what the average consumer has told us they consider a base requirement in any audiophile grade AV product. We have been guaranteed by various polls that this will indeed satisfy a larger majority of consumers.

KCB,

I'd say that 8 or 9 out of your 12 deal with sonics, no?


brianca.

Spend more and you're getting more refined looks, and features that have little bearing on sonic performance such as balanced outputs, and a more elaborate user interface. The majority of the actual parts inside the 950 are identical to ones used in any such device, regardless of price.

Soundhound,

I would say that Kevins list says otherwise. Numbers 1,2,3,6 and 7 all effect the sound and by no small amount (Maybe small to you, but to my ears its not)..To simply say all that your getting is balanced connections and prettier looks is a falsehood.

As to the parts in the 950 being the same, this Im not sure of and will do some research on, but you overlook many factors that effect the sound including how the parts are layed out, workmenship, design, etc. Not to mention software tweakability (which can improve sound dramatically), automatic room calibration, built in eq if desired and yes balanced connections plus more flexible bass management, more crossovers, sub distance and independent rears. Im sure noise levels on the 950 can be reduced (have read reviews about unaceptable background noise) Im not talking about the hiss bug either.

I wonder why some beta testers have since sold their 950s, Merc in particular which was an avid 950 defender (I believe hes now using the ref 50 but not sure)

The examples you cite are user interface and feature set issues. It doesn't necessairly take tons of money to design-in these things, just some intelligent designing and market research. The hardware overhead involved would be more powerful DSPs and/or different decoding ICs, among other things. The actual parts involved in building a pre/pro are not as expensive as some would have you believe. Mundane things like the power transformer and chassis are more costly than any other electronic part.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Outlaws were already designing a second generation preamp that would take into consideration these issues.

While the skill of the designer does play a big part in the ultimate performance of a product, purchasing an "expensive" pre/pro does not necesssairly guarantee that it was designed by the best engineering talent (I've run into this more times than I care to think about).

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited March 31, 2003).]

Mary and Jed,

There is alot of history behind my obsession with this. But alot really has nothing to do with many of you. I'll describe it a little, for several months from 12-20 months ago, it seemed like every single thread had some Outlaw input in it. The 1050 receiver was in every thread. People kept on saying, why pay $900-1000 when you can get this one for $600....the problem is that those $900-1000 receivers do cost $600 with 25-40% online discounts from authorized dealers like J&R Music, Oade, Onecall, etc. A couple of guys kept on insisting that since some magazine only gave annual awards to two receivers, the Denon 5803 and Outlaw 1050, then the Outlaw receiver betters every Denon except the 5803. Huh? What about the 5800, 4802, 4800, 3803, 3802, 3801?

A year before the 950 eventually shipped, almost every thread asking for advice on receivers or separates had "wait for the Outlaw 950"...it is the substitute for just about every product, every brand, any price (higher or lower). And Outlaw did announce that they would design a highend model too before the 950 shipped (not just the recently announced 950 replacement).

But hey, this really has nothing to do with you. And anyone spending $2500+ on separates, that's basically all of us, is long, long past the point of diminishing returns. Most people spend $300-500 on a receiver, $400-600 on 5 speakers, $300 on a sub, and are very grateful if you can go to the store with them and figure out what to buy. Then, you go to their house and hook everything up. No way they know what optical, composite, component means They don't read forums, and basically have just spent their 10 year budget on HT electronics..this is stuff they give to their kids when they go away for college.

Anyway, Happy Listening!

Yours truly,
Ricky