though i refuse to post anything in that forum, i do occasionally read with interest.

i happened to see the 'outlaws ride again' thread last night, where KCB single-handedly fends off all comers with logic and a very high degree of knowledge-based comparison information, which led to his choice of, and satisfaction with, the 950.

it's hilarious to me that the attackers resorted to a 'what if someone offered you an 'X' pre/pro (that costs 4x the price of the 950) in a straight-up trade' scenario.

i would take the trade in a heartbeat...sell the 'X' pre/pro...buy a new 950...and $3,000 worth of other hardware upgrade gear. (duh)

in any case...way to go KCB! you said for all of us, why we chose the 950 and remain satisfied with the choice, while being deluged by ridiculous jabs and nonsense, all the while, remaining calm, polite and factual.

the point, for me, is that, as always, i learned new things from your well researched posts...and absolutely nothing from the attacker's posts.

The 950 still beats all other pre/pro in value,I just read the Sherbourn review ($1500
or more)and it is basically the same (other components, they claim). The rest is in the 2k $ or more.

As with many things it's a sort of hyperbolic cost / benefit curve. Sure, you can get better, but as you move that direction the curve gets steeper, and fairly quickly. I really think Outlaw Audio has scored by finding a very sweet place on that curve.

I was surprised I wasn't getting more support from other Outlaws over there!

It's just wierd, in that there *seem* to be those out there, that are genuinely bothered by the fact that for $899, Outlaw *can* and *does* sell a product that does compete with other manufacturer's products at (IMO) 3x the cost and maybe more. There are some features missing granted, but just for pure audio quality...

I have a thought process in my head about why Outlaw gets trashed so much over there, but I can't quite articulate it yet.

For example, and *someday* I will have a 7.1 capable pre/pro with non-mono rears (just my thing, can't explain it), but I read a review of either the DC-2 or MC-1 that said, when the reviewer opened it up and saw the quality of the parts inside, they were genuinely surprised. In a bad way. They specifically mentioned "cheap" DACs and op amps. And I seem to remember another review mentioning the too-large-for-the-price-point jitter that was added to the signal also by one of these. Yet they get rave reviews, partially, I believe, *because* of their price.

Any of that make sense? Kind of like the 950 upsets the balance of the world in some people's mind, and they attack it. Shoot, *someday* I'll be able to describe my thinking about this better.

KCB: i agree with the 'name game' now, more than ever.

before the internet and forums like this one, research was limited to what the local (and, sometimes, not so local) B&M stores had to show and tell. they were always rigged demos with manufacturer propaganda as a sales pitch.

other than that, were the 'stereo review' type mags that seconded what the sales people told you.

a perfect example, for me, is meridian. super high end stuff. very tweakable, cutting-edge technology. pretty to look at. prices that are higher than a giraffe's tonsils. heck, the dvd industry adopted meridian lossless packing! they MUST be good.

i visited their booth at CES. their multi-channel display was an acoustic nightmare, very 'sit-down-and-demo UNfriendly' and the sound was thin, brittle and...well...crap.

i have since learned a bit about HOW their mlp scheme was adopted vs 3 other competitors. you hear about them? neither did i.

it's a small group of big companies that care more about copyright protection and profit and keeping a stanglehold on the 'market' than consumer convenience and sound quality.

dvd-a/sacd ia a perfect example. no bass mismanagement, no delay, analog outs and remixed 30 year old analog tapes. imagine how much more slowly it would progress without the internet.

people like bob carver, david chesky, SKG and outlaw audio are the mavericks, the rare few who break the mold and have success and they are usually poorly received in the 'press'.

htf is a clubhouse of people who parrot the anthem of the forum. a lot of them wouldn't wait for the 950 and paid too much for something else instead. now that the 950 is readily available...the last thing they want to hear is that they should have waited.

this forum is unprecedented in the marketing world. i suspect a lot of companies hate the idea of it. i wouldn't be surprised to find out who some of the 'attackers' really are.

i originally bought the onk 898 receiver-as-pre-pro. it had terrible software glitches. i called repeatedly and was referred to a local repair center. the company lied, saying they had never heard of the problems. the repair center said they had no idea what was wrong or how to fix it. i was the first (and for a good while, the only) person to post the problem at audioreview. i sent it back and sure enough, other similar posts began to appear. if not for the internet, i would have thought i was the only one with a defective unit.

sorry for the rant. again...it was great to read how you handeled the situation at htf. i could never have kept my cool like that, and it showed the depth of your knowledge on the subject, which makes your opinion of the 950 a valuable one.

It makes a lot of sense to me, Kevin. I'm not so sure it's the product as much as the Outlaw "model", or the way they choose to go to market, that seems to lead some folks to trash the line. Seems some of the worst comments I've read come from folks who have never even seen a 950, much less heard one. Good point you made about upsetting the balance of power in this business-- I think the Outlaws have done this for sure.

The very few times I've read that forum, it's seemed like it was populated by a lot of manufacturer's reps. The general vibe I get there is that people are very biased, and unwilling to accept that something less than megabucks can be any good.

------------------
The Soundhound Theater

Speaking of megabucks. For the non-cagers who have not seen this concept yet, (I hadn’t) take a look at this: http://www.geocities.com/skews_me/tomahawk.html

Lena,
that put's my V-Star to a shame

I agree with the posters here.
I visit HTF less and less,even though it was my "home" for almost 4 years.
Guys like that Ricky dude draging those forums down[see DT forum].

To spread the "blame" a bit beyond HTF, I found my Waterloo at AVS Forum. Everytime I posted something positive about the 950, I was surrounded by the pack wolves who started tearing me apart, one piece of meat at a time. I finally just stopped posting about the 950.

And that was a forum admin'ed by RAF, one of the most enthusiastic 950 beta testers.

Like all of you, I can't account for the negative passion that has accrued around the 950. But anytime so many people seem to be so cheesed off at you, you must be doing something right.

Let's see: great product, outstanding performance, low price, the best customer service in the business. I guess if I owned something else I'd be hot under the collar, too.

I thought Kevin did a great job - didn't really *need* any backup. Also in all honesty several of the 'opposition' were making good points too, but mostly it was pretty irrational knee jerk type stuff, and it's generally better IMO to let a cool head like KCB handle it without fanning the fire.

Me? With a cool head? You obviously haven't seen me play hockey...

Although I thought he had one of the only valid points in the whole thread - proves it's not what you say, but how you say it.

[The 950, IMO, isn't competing in the same arena as The AVM20, Ref50, etc]

While I see some 950 bashing on the forums, it is nothing compared to the Rocket speaker bashing over on AVS. ALthough the Rocket bunch is pretty vocal bringing some of it on themselves. For the record I own a 950 and the Rockets and am very happy with both.

For what it's worth, Outlaw gear is highly regarded on the SMR Forums, the forums that I frequent the most.

http://forums.smr-forums.com:8080/

Jeff

Charlie,
My problem with Ricky was, that he never owned the 950, so his "opinion" of it is rather "invalid".
I would never bash anything I don't have first hand knowledge of.Basing any opinion on price alone is pretentious IMO.

I think that in general, HTF sometimes has a problem with people making a global proclamation, and then because their ego's are too big (or something!), they will try to argue a losing vantage point until the death of a thread... There *are* other viewpoints and opinions as well as facts, and no one knows everything about everything... But some people, even when presented with incontrovertible fact, still won't budge.

Nice job over the Kevin (and you too Mary, I peeked at the AT Pre/Pro thread too ). Sorry for not joining the fray, but while I was never banned from HTF, I certainly came to feel very unwelcome (especially after some of the rather derogitory and insulting emails started coming in ) and haven't been there in ages.

Still loving my Outlaw 1050, 950 & 750!

------------------
pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

...unless you're talking about svsubwoofers...

i recently saw a photo of a $2k+ passive sub where it showed serious defects in the aluminum cone of the driver. the comment was made (by the co-owner of svs) that it was only cosmetic and wouldn't effect the sound. this comment was followed by sighs of relief and applause.

Ah, that Ricky dude is here

I was taking about straight, not buy one and sell...which I know how to do very well.

KCB's Outlaw vs Anthem demo was one time in someone else's system. Not the best way to judge a product. But that's valid right? People mention that I can't bash the product because I've never owned it. Well, I've heard the Outlaw on three occasions in other people's systems. And I've owned over a dozen 5.1 processors in my system.

And what personal evidence do you guys have that the 950 competes "straight" up vs $3-4k prepros? What other 5.1 processors have you guys owned in YOUR systems?

And if you think I bought down DT, you weren't there. The ownership abandoned the software and site years ago.

[This message has been edited by Ricky (edited March 30, 2003).]

Ricky, why does the 950 consume you like it does? It seems really weird. But either way, welcome back to the forum.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited March 30, 2003).]

Thanks Jed for the welcome.

First, let me state that if I were spending $3k NEW for a 7.1 setup, the 950/770 combo would be at the top of my list. Second, if I was offered a 60k Lexus instead of a 20k Honda Accord, I, like most folks, would sell the Lexus and buy an Accord. But I wouldn't consider the Accord as good as the Lexus.

Maybe you 950 owners can humor me and do two things. Forget about what everyone says, or what you read. Just you, the individual.

1) List all the 5.1 capable processors that you've had in YOUR system.

2) Why you think you would be "indifferent" sonically to having a current $3-4k prepro instead of the 950 (ie: Anthem AVM20, B&K Ref50, Sunfire TheaterIII, Integra RDC7, Aragon Stage One).

[This message has been edited by Ricky (edited March 30, 2003).]

Ricky-

#2) This is a pointless question as we've already haggled on at HTF. No one is going to trade me the 950 even up for a $3k-$4k processor, so what is the point? There *are* other reasons to own a piece of equipment. In terms of the recent "lack of LFE with DTS-ES" problem the 950 has, I have actually decided that I *would* keep the 950 even if a $3-$4k processor was *given* to me. (I *have* been heavily looking at the B&K.) Know why? Because I really like Outlaw's business model, and their truly excellent customer service. Besides, I am somewhat of a heretic anyway, because I *also* truly believe that a well designed $500 receiver-as-a-pre/pro can compete on sonics alone with $3-$4k processors. I personally do not and have never believed that there are large audio quality differences between quality designed and built electronics. I can create a larger difference in sonics in my system by simply moving my speakers than by swapping pre/pros.

And, I don't know if you realize this or not, but it is actually very common practice in practically any review I've read over the years, that any good piece of eqp *is* compared with those costing a lot more. Just because a component costs more, doesn't automatically mean it will perform any differently.

1) Yamaha DSP-E1000, Yamaha RX-V793 receiver-as-a-pre/pro, Sony TA-E9000ES, Outlaw 950. And I'll also add that I've had Adcom and Nakamichi analog 2 channel preamps as well, so I certainly know what good "sound quality" is.

"1) List all the 5.1 capable processors that you've had in YOUR system.

Hi Ricky, I’ll try to be careful here as I type, sometimes something I’m saying laughingly or earnestly, when I compose print, I will reread later, shocked at the tone of it.

This question of yours bothers me. Why? It’s a valid question. Especially when enthusiast are gathering and telling war stories but taken in the context of the agenda I think you have, it sounds arrogant to me. I have sensitivity for condescending remarks which some months, (not always..I’m generally happy go lucky easy going and calm) more than others, - set my teeth on edge. Not because I don’t respect authority, experience, seasoning in any field, (I'd be an utter fool NOT to respect it and glean all I can), - but it gets tedious when you’re a female or male and the neophyte in any undertaking.

I am a neophyte in AV, the 950/770 is the first 5.1 system I’ve been responsible for purchasing. I mix up my terminology, I loose track of what seems like an unending flow of new facts to log concerning DSP, BM, you name it …I have trouble grasping it, I grasp it…then mix it up and get it backwards. But my subjective ears are as good as yours are. Will I learn [nuance] will my ear train, will I pass through the effects of sensory overload from adding multi-surround sound and SW’s and become more sensitive to the tiny increments in performance of NF, Mids, highs, lows, where and when a particular unit rolls off. Certainly, if I pay attention and stay at it. And my ‘tastes’ will change during this process. But if I can’t ‘hear’ a good prepro with a minimum of experience. How is it I can ‘hear’ loudspeakers and decide instantly, they have more range than these or those (and be backed very often by those with much experience there). I have noticed you like it well documented that you have the used-lot pricing dollar amounts memorized, and that you’ve rotated many and various units through your system. I’m not referring to my experience at ‘in home demo’ it really isn’t a practical argument or valid at all times for many consumers who will rely and make choices on what they hear at the dealers when out listening, even after being in AV for years.

What you prefer, is still your ‘hype’ and no less so than my opinion (hype) about how happy I’ve been with the purchase currently of the capable sound of my 950.

I don't like it when I hear a tone of intimadation by those in these forums who have had time to memorize specs, and years of experience. Sure I’ll make mistakes and sure I’ll slap the wall a time or two and hopefully I will learn as I go. And I do listen to ALL of you , or else you could accuse me of being embedded in opinionated concrete with no hope of ever advancing and acquiring new skills . What bothers me about your question is the context in which you use it. You seem to be hoping to attempt to imply that some/many/all Outlaw owners are not possessed of your self declared ‘qualifications’ or experience level. (others may not 'read you' this way, I speak only for myself). I shall continue to trust my own instincts, commonsense, and in this case…. ears, while respecting and trying to learn from those who have gone before. But I’d be willing to bet if I had your exact experience, purchases, and time in AV under my belt, twin mirrored to yours, my subjective ears would have caused me to make some alternative and different selections than yours. That does not make mine right or yours wrong.

Ricky I’m jealous of your ‘experience’ and do not wish to make light of it, but what your up too, well forgive me for my cynicism that anyone who spends so much time chasing Outlaw threads has an agenda that has nothing at all to do with sound. “Forget about what everyone says, or what you read” I do when I finally make my choices, - that’s me and I am the individual.

Smart Little Lena,

I respect your comments, but do not understand how they are applicable to my two questions. I never said the Outlaw sucked or was not a good product?

The topic was whether or not the Outlaw 950 is "straight up" as good as current 3-4k prepros, like the 5 models I listed. Others say that since I never owned the 950, my comments are off base. Well, why can't I turn the tables and ask the reverse? I mean, to say a $20k Honda Accord is as good as 60k models, one should have some personal experience with some 60k models, right? I mean, isn't it MORE arrogant to say that a product is as good as others 3-4X the price then vice versa? So I will stick with asking people to humor me with my two questions.

Ricky:

All products have their compromises, either in parts quality, fit and finish, or features. The designer's job is to create a product that hits the best balance of these compromises for a given price point. The way a product is marketed also plays a huge part in the final cost of a product to the consumer.

Everybody has their own opinions on what aspect of a product is of greatest importance to them. To some, it is the pure performance of the product. To others, it is the look and style of the product. To most it is a combination of both of these.

The Outlaw business model of direct to consumer sales knocks a huge amount off the price right off the bat. The packaging, while very good and substantial, is nowhere as expensive to produce as that of 1/2" thick billet aluminum faceplate products. The electronic circuits inside are to a very high spec, and are generally as good as anything out there.

This is not to say that there are not comprimises - there have to be. The point however is that in the case of the 950, the decisions on where to make the compromises have been made very wisely, and the weight has been given to sonic performance over "features & flash".

Now, this set of priorities may not matter much to you (they probably don't), and there are many other companies out there that will be more than happy to take your money, and in doing so, satisfy your particular needs.

The Outlaw 950 has almost all of the sonic performance of preamps in the $3,000 range. It does not have the titanium anodized faceplate and balanced output connectors they have, but personally this does not matter to me. The only titanium I care about is on the muffler of my motorcycle.

Challenging someone to defend the 950 directly against ("Straight Up") a $3,000 preamp is a pretty pointless exercise in my opinion, about as pointless as defending that my wife as prettier than yours. There's more to life, and precious little time to explore it all.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited March 30, 2003).]

i'll take the lex mc12b. straight up trade, that is.

the rest of those you mention...no.

i'll wait for outlaw...the next generation and pay the asking price.

i don't have to have a reason.

Ricky, I will answer your questions but first I would like you to humor me with my question
Why is it that you do not need to have a processor in YOUR system to judge it correctly, but I do? Just curious.
And you are most certainly welcome for the welcome (that sounds strange).

soundhog,

I guess you are kinda answering my Q2. You make some good points to account for some of the price differences. The 950 would probably retail 1300-1500 as-is in a B&M. How expensive the faceplates and balanced connections would vary quite a bit, it depends on which model. IMO, most of the balanced connections are more external connectors than the more expensive true balanced, dual-differential circuitry inside.

If you say life is too short for this seemingly simple "pointless to defend against 3-4k prepro" exercise, then why did the Outlaw thread on HTF go to 90+ posts? In a similiar, and much shorter, HTF thread on the Rotel 1066 vs 3-4k prepros, several Rotel 1066 acknowledged that the other prepros were better sonically, especially in 2 channel, but they choose their 1066s for price/performance (not straight up).

bossobass,

So 3-4k prepros is not enough competition for your 950, so you would only take a 10k prepro staightup? And for no apparent reason?

you got it right, ricky...except for the 'no apparent reason' part.

Jed,

You make a good point, and one that I am trying to make. It seems like alot of Outlaw supporters have no problem saying that the 950 has the same sonics as 3-4k prepros (which we see over and over), when they themselves can't validate this. Seems like a little like "follow the crowd" mentality.

And sure, like most A vs B vs C comparisons, there would be a few who have tried B&C and pick Outlaw; but there are many others who would pick B&C over Outlaw.

I do know three friends and dealers, people I have met in person, who have owned the Outlaw or AT clone and say it performs well for its price, but not as good as other gear they own...two preamp/prepro models which I have owned and can judge personally. Two comments were "the AT prepro was good, but its no Aragon or Sunfire" ...and "good for HT, but $500 preamp is much better for 2 channel...and this preamp is not as good as the AVM20"

OK, I'm in the game...
I just received my blue dot 950 (swap) with the LFE fix. It was delivered to my office, and before I could get it home, I thought I would bring it by a B&W speaker dealer that I work with regularly.

You see... I am not an audio engineer, but a simple architect who schleps a living designing studios and home theaters for some really knowledgeable clients. I also design churches, and other audio and video performance spaces on a regular basis. To paraphrase Kevin C. Brown in another thread recently, "Speaker placement can have more effect than a lot of high priced equipment." That is true, and the rooms audio characteristics are also huge factors that can limit the potential of the most expensive and/or spectacular equipment. So... on to the dealer showroom, with a very good demo space, and a pair of B&W Nautilus 800's. Alan Parsons uses B&W N800's in his studio, and he paid for them.

Before hooking up the 950, we listened to the Sunfire TG3, a Lexicon MC-12B, a top end McIntosh (can't recall the model), and the Meridian 568.2 (the el-cheap-o $7,500 Meridian Pre-Pro). We limited our listening to 2 channel only, and mostly in by-pass (or equivalent) modes. We all thought the Lexicon was the king of the hill, and by the way... the most expensive on the hill. All sounded good, as none of these high priced pre-pro's were lacking seriously in any category, but the Sunfire was the one unit that price being equal, we would have left an orphan.

We then hooked up the 950, with its' philistine neophyte unbalanced RCA outputs. You see, I have been threatening my speaker dealer friend for some time that I would do this... bring in this "sold over the internet" piece of equipment that he will not let me mention in his store in the presence of other potential customers, except my own clients. Well he and the other sales staff had heard of Outlaw, but never heard Outlaw equipment, so they were curious.

There are some general rules of thumb I use to determine the interest level of people in a particular piece of equipment, and they are...
1) how soon they go for the volume to crank it up,
2) how long they leave the volume cranked,
3) if after cranking, they turn it down, way down, and listen for dynamic characteristics at low listening levels, and...
4) for how long they just stare at the box.

After about 20 minutes, both listening and staring, my friend, who has sold over $70,000 worth of equipment to my clients in the past year, made me box up the 950 and go home. It was 4:00 PM, and some real customers were probably on their way.

Before I left, we spoke about the business of selling "quality". "Some things are just not priced high enough" to convince people it is worth their time and attention," he said. "People need to feel good about the sale; that they have got something special." He said that he felt that the Meridian had qualities that were clearly better... About the 950, he and the other sales staff agreed it made the system sing, and that is no small achievement. These speakers (N800's), and the two Classe amps (bi-amp configuration) expose every flaw in the supporting cast of equipment. "I have heard a lot of well respected components sound like sh**t on this system; this Outlaw passes," and then he just smiled.


[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited March 30, 2003).]

AGAssarsson,

Good demo, and it seems like you prefer the Outlaw over the Sunfire TG3. A friend/dealer of mine carries AT and certainly would take the Sunfire/Aragon over the AT clone. I think there are more like him than like you.

Smart Little Lena,

Are you Mary? I am sorry that my posts have inflicted grave pain on you. Enjoy your first 5.1 system!



[This message has been edited by Ricky (edited March 30, 2003).]

Maybe there are a lot more of them than me... or us for that matter.
I used to own a Sunfire TG2, and have had Carver equipment dating back to the early 80's.
The Sunfire TG3 is great, but to my ears, just not significantly better than the 950. In the listening session described above, no one in that room would say the 950 was clearly better than the Sunfire, but it did not get knocked out of the room either. All of us said it held its own against some very stiff competition. This is the point you seem to have trouble with. It was comparable if not always just as spectacular to the other equipment in the room.

I am not a slave to economics, so if I wanted a Sunfire TG3 bad enough, it would be mine. In terms of pure sonic performance, the differences between the two pre-pro's are simply not so striking. In my experience, this opinion is not restricted to Outlaw owners only.

On the other hand, if the Lexicon MC-12B costs a dollar, or $12,000, it is still demonstrably superior to either the 950 or the Sunfire. The Lexicon is clearly a more qualified piece of equipment, and the additional cost could be considered to have actual value above and beyond the wow factor sought by so many pseudo-audiophiles. But it is just not fair to compare the Sunfire to a Lexicon, after all it costs so much more. That's just not fair...

By the way, his screen name is Soundhound, not Soundhog. When my speech emulation software malfunctions, it too sometimes makes some hapless mistakes. Sometimes it is just too much fun to beat a piñata to stop after just a few posts. Hockey anyone?

[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited March 31, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited March 31, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited March 31, 2003).]

Uhmmmm THEY DON'T HAVE A LIFE???

Ricky, sorry but I couldn't help but point out this GLARING logic fault in your point......

You specifically request Basically, you're stating here that our opinions aren't valid unless we've tried other processors in OUR systems (emphasis yours). (Aside: The only other processor I've had is the Sherwood Newcastle AV-P9080 which I thought was equivalent to the 950 in 5.1 modes, but the Outlaw bests it with DPL-II, DTS:NEO, onboard analog crossover, triple crossover for digital).

Then you turn around and tell us that (emphasis mine) See the dichotomy here?

We're not allowed to come to a conclusion unless we've heard whatever other processor on our systems.

However, you are allowed to make conclusions based on hearing the Outlaw 950 on other systems, based on your extensive expereince with other non-950 products?

How is that fair?

------------------
Philip Hamm

[This message has been edited by Philip Hamm (edited March 31, 2003).]

AGAssarsson,

That 568v2 must rock. According to one Meridian dealer, Lexicon and Theta are competing for 4th place in the prepro world....behind Meridian, Meridian, and Meridian....that is the 861, 568v2, and 561

Phillip,

My comment on listening to the 950 on three occasions is in context to Kevin's 950 vs Anthem demo in someone's elses system. Funny, but you do emphasis one point I am trying to make. Even BEFORE the 950 shipped, many people (especially on HTF) were already comparing it to 3-4k prepros. Tell me how this isn't a glaringly bold belief?

And you acknowledge that the Outlaw is no better than the Sherwood in 5.1 sonics. I don't know how you can make the jump to say that these other 3-4k prepros would not sound better than either. I had the Sherwood, it is really no better than the Nakamichi AV10 receiver, HK Signature 2.0, and a variety of older decoders in 5.1. And I would put the Sherwood a step behind the Lexicons, Onkyo 989, and Aragons in 5.1 sonics. All the current 3-4k prepros have the new modes.

"Enjoy your first 5.1 system!" Thank you. I just hope you enjoyed your first.

But I pic you as an unlaid ghost. Ceaselessly searching. Some say …the journeys the thing. I had a 5.0 before anyone ever coined the term Home Theater. Something my husband rigged, but we were late to the party on DTS, and DD. 5.1. Switching to separates, gaining the latest DSP modes and adding .1 for action/adventure was a very nice upgrade.

Are you Mary? yes, and quite contrary.

I am sorry that my posts have inflicted grave pain on you. What [must] you think of my pain threshold! I have been known to politely ask someone to open a car door that they closed on my thumb without a whimper. I have had two children. This is simply my childish side displaying a loss of patience.
Ricky, I believe I [see] yours hearts desire. What burns you is not that the 950 is a fine pre-pro for the money. What you worry like a dog with a bone, is your campaign to force us into an admission of our proper place in the AV hierarchy. . Owners of a 900-dollar pre-pro, have the sheer effrontery to state they would or could prefer the 950 over units costing more?!

Okay, you twisted my arm long enough. NO THE 950 (fingers crossed behind my back) is NOT as good as something that COSTS more! UNCLE UNCLE.

Seriously Ricky… do you think it profitable to you? (or likely) that 950 owners who have made their choice for various and sundry reasons, would capitulate to your insistence that some 950 owners are misinformed when they conclude they got more bang for their buck, and prefer the unit over more expensive? If I held your opinion that it was not as good or better I should not or would not, own one.

I noted that you stated many times in other forums you feel you have helped countless people with their purchases. Ricky, if we’re on occasion rude or impatience with you,(And I am truly sorry). This may be due to the fact that the forums idealy should be profitable to all to advance their knowledge, exchange information, compare units and spread the joy. It is exactly when they are at their best, while people, - for the sheer delight of sharing do so graciously and generously to help others. When it gets ugly in the forums is when some decide that others have no Equal right to preferences. Would you rather be a beggar in any 950 thread, than a prince in your own castle? Alright!!! Come in have an Outlaw margarita, (sometimes known as “green Kool-Aid” ) Relax, enjoy the sounds (any sounds).

Since you asked again: in answer to #2.
If Owners of other units, do not feel while listening to their purchase that it sounds better than it costs? Dare I say,------ there might be something amiss?


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited March 31, 2003).]

Like AGAssarsson I, too, am in the game....

Just received my new 950/7100 combo roughly 2 weeks ago-- and so far my only regret is that I'm not independently wealth enough to spend more time listen/lookin' to this new combo than working.

This is not my first 5.1 but the first was definitely low-fi. Listened to many, if not most of the pre/pros all of you mentioned, but, alas, I couldn't afford them. Then, just in the nick-of-time the posse (in the form of Outlaw Audio) showed up. Not only were they affordable for me, they were willing to do what no dealer has ever offered-- listen to them and if not satisfied they'll refund them. Yes-- I could listen to them IN MY HOUSE to see? hear how they do!!!

Hope that soundhound gaff on Rick's part was a typo (also glad I didn't do it).

Ditto Smart Little Lena's posting.

Can't help it. I like Outlaw. That's how I feel.

------------------

Well, I saw that, but I just prefer to pick my battles wisely (I wish some government officials would do the same...)

Ricky:

I didn't get into this in my original post, but I think it bears mentioning. I work professionally in the motion picture industry with soundtrack music. I have done the mixing and mastering of the music in a lot movies you undoubtedly have in your DVD library - my name is in their credits. I use the 950 as part of my studio, and it is without a doubt and unquestionably up to the demands I require of it. It is sonically transparent enough to use for my work.

I could purchase any pre/pro I want - the equipment I use is all capital expenditure anyway. I chose the Outlaw 950 because of it's transparency and no-nonsense functionality. The fact that they bend over backwards to make their customers happy doesn't hurt either. I wouldn't touch some of the even extremely expensive pre/pros out there simply because they are either flawed soncially or place more emphasis on looks than performance.

I sincerely hope you find a pre/pro that meets your own high standards.

So are you conceding that you're offering a double standard? You certainly aren't refuting it. I have no idea what kind of crazy logic leads you to your sentence "you do emphasis one point I am trying to make.". You're putting words in my mouth, BIGTIME here. WHen did I write that it was "no better" than the Sherwood? I believe the word I used was "equivalent", which means that they sound about the same to me. "No Better" strongly implies that the Outlaw sounds worse than the Sherwood, something I NEVER WROTE nore INTENDED. When did I make that jump? Once again you're accusing me of something I never wrote and never claimed based on some faulty logic in your head that tells you that since some people made such a comment then that must mean all Outlaw users believe that.

Personally I've heard some pretty serious shit at my local dealer's place, and at my friend Phil's house here in VA. And I can tell you that years of playing in rock bands affected my ears to the point that what I've got right now is probably serious overkill for me. For my purposes, the Outlaw probably does sound as good as a multi-$$$ processor.

------------------
Philip Hamm

[This message has been edited by Philip Hamm (edited March 31, 2003).]

Going on the assumption that the 950 performs as well as pre-pros costing 3 times as much, it should be almost impossible for Outlaw to improve upon the 950..After all the 950 is at the pinnicle of cost/performance right ? spend any more and your just wasting your money. I wonder what the marketing slogo will be on the next generation-(maybe it will compete with 20,000 pre-pros sonically)

JT- Aahhh, but there's still the question of *features* and ergonomics which most 950 owners will admit can be improved on:

1) Me personally? I want non-mono rears a la THX Ultra2, Logic 7.
2) Separate distance/delay setting for the rears.
3) No double bass ever, at all.
4) Fix the phase difference in the sub output between using the digital and analog crossovers.
5) Fix the problem with lack of all channel test signal or output from the 5.1 analog in *if* you're switching from a "stereo" mode prior.
6) Distance setting to the sub.
7) Setting in the config for inverting the output to the sub.
8) Separate settings in the config for LFE level *and* crossed over info from the mains. (LFE "mix".)
9) Adjustable high pass on the LFE signal alone.
10) Separate level cals for DD/DTS vs say CD.
11) Fancier faceplate.
12) Ability to edit the names in the display for the inputs.

Etc, etc, etc. Most of these have nothing to do with sonics, or at least there are more involved "workarounds," but I'd pay more for 'em.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited March 31, 2003).]

I mirror what Kevin said, but I would also add
1. A usable, or more usable second zone.
2. I would also like more future proof audio/video switching like dvi, firewire, or even 3 to 4 component.
3. Software upgradeable.

Ricky I think you value money too much as a social status. When you ask us if any of us would trade a 900 dollar pre/pro straight up for a 3k or 4k one it implies that that we can't afford them. Don't assume we can't afford more expensive, or in your terms "better", but remember some people are rich because they are better and smarter at spending their money. Just food for thought. You don't happen to own a Bose Waveradio do you?

it should be almost impossible for Outlaw to improve upon the 950.. I wonder what the marketing slogo will be on the next generation



Outlaw Press Release: Due to the great demand among forums, Outlaw is announcing their improved model 950, to which we have added one of the few lacking features which many have been clamoring for.
We are proud to announce a Cost Increase to add greater usability to the 950. We have engineered this latest feature after much intensive research regarding what the average consumer has told us they consider a base requirement in any audiophile grade AV product. We have been guaranteed by various polls that this will indeed satisfy a larger majority of consumers.

KCB,

I'd say that 8 or 9 out of your 12 deal with sonics, no?


brianca.

Spend more and you're getting more refined looks, and features that have little bearing on sonic performance such as balanced outputs, and a more elaborate user interface. The majority of the actual parts inside the 950 are identical to ones used in any such device, regardless of price.

Soundhound,

I would say that Kevins list says otherwise. Numbers 1,2,3,6 and 7 all effect the sound and by no small amount (Maybe small to you, but to my ears its not)..To simply say all that your getting is balanced connections and prettier looks is a falsehood.

As to the parts in the 950 being the same, this Im not sure of and will do some research on, but you overlook many factors that effect the sound including how the parts are layed out, workmenship, design, etc. Not to mention software tweakability (which can improve sound dramatically), automatic room calibration, built in eq if desired and yes balanced connections plus more flexible bass management, more crossovers, sub distance and independent rears. Im sure noise levels on the 950 can be reduced (have read reviews about unaceptable background noise) Im not talking about the hiss bug either.

I wonder why some beta testers have since sold their 950s, Merc in particular which was an avid 950 defender (I believe hes now using the ref 50 but not sure)

The examples you cite are user interface and feature set issues. It doesn't necessairly take tons of money to design-in these things, just some intelligent designing and market research. The hardware overhead involved would be more powerful DSPs and/or different decoding ICs, among other things. The actual parts involved in building a pre/pro are not as expensive as some would have you believe. Mundane things like the power transformer and chassis are more costly than any other electronic part.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Outlaws were already designing a second generation preamp that would take into consideration these issues.

While the skill of the designer does play a big part in the ultimate performance of a product, purchasing an "expensive" pre/pro does not necesssairly guarantee that it was designed by the best engineering talent (I've run into this more times than I care to think about).

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited March 31, 2003).]

Mary and Jed,

There is alot of history behind my obsession with this. But alot really has nothing to do with many of you. I'll describe it a little, for several months from 12-20 months ago, it seemed like every single thread had some Outlaw input in it. The 1050 receiver was in every thread. People kept on saying, why pay $900-1000 when you can get this one for $600....the problem is that those $900-1000 receivers do cost $600 with 25-40% online discounts from authorized dealers like J&R Music, Oade, Onecall, etc. A couple of guys kept on insisting that since some magazine only gave annual awards to two receivers, the Denon 5803 and Outlaw 1050, then the Outlaw receiver betters every Denon except the 5803. Huh? What about the 5800, 4802, 4800, 3803, 3802, 3801?

A year before the 950 eventually shipped, almost every thread asking for advice on receivers or separates had "wait for the Outlaw 950"...it is the substitute for just about every product, every brand, any price (higher or lower). And Outlaw did announce that they would design a highend model too before the 950 shipped (not just the recently announced 950 replacement).

But hey, this really has nothing to do with you. And anyone spending $2500+ on separates, that's basically all of us, is long, long past the point of diminishing returns. Most people spend $300-500 on a receiver, $400-600 on 5 speakers, $300 on a sub, and are very grateful if you can go to the store with them and figure out what to buy. Then, you go to their house and hook everything up. No way they know what optical, composite, component means They don't read forums, and basically have just spent their 10 year budget on HT electronics..this is stuff they give to their kids when they go away for college.

Anyway, Happy Listening!

Yours truly,
Ricky

I have to say that the 950 is on my short list of processors for my new theater, and I'm looking at others that cost several thousand. I wouldn't say that it's better than the others, but the gains are pretty slim for what you pay.
I ended up going with the 1066 way back when the 950 first came out, but it sounds like the 950 had made changes that I would like in the several versions that have come out since then. If it sounds more like the 1066 now, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a reason not to get it.


brianca..

Hi John, Actually speaking for merc is playing in dangerous waters, (and in case I got it wrong) I do believe I’ll go find my surge protector just in case any stray bolts come my way.
He may pop up and speak for himself if he’s scanning, but forgive me Merc for theorizing about you, (and what you get up to and right now I bet he is enthusiastically reviewing and enjoying (I am sure) his next change in system. Yes I think Merc did change out the 950 after a years usage. I believe I personally always felt as did Merc (if I recall his opinions) that the 950 in 2K plus units had not been beat by anything he had heard in the DVD film decoding category. He did express dissatisfaction with the 950 that in his systems setup he desired to completely bypass BM in 5.1 bypass mode, and there was a unit he could achieve this with (paying twice what the 950 runs) and since he could afford it and wished this feature he did.

John, have you never sold/exchanged/replaced/upgraded a piece of your AV? It’s going to happen with the 950 and every other product on the market. There are many men in the forums, whose life’s calling is to upgrade. I believe it was Merc, who mentioned once that if you did NOT see a change in his system regularly you would know that he was dead.

Ricky, thanks very much for the post back, I feel I got a glimpse of your issues.

When I first came into research and begin to feel a growing interest in looking around into what made good sound. I’m ashamed to admit, I fell into some fun, (but really nasty habits) I made a couple of bose jokes joining in with the crowd (really it was like shooting fish in a barrel.)

But one day pursing this new passion, I awoke to the fact, that audiophiles [can] be the biggest bunch of elitist boorish snobs, I’ve ever had the pleasure to run with, and if I was not careful I might be in danger of becoming one. (someday when I grew up). I sat back and thought about peoples’ search, experience and experimentation with sound (God hold me back even Bose). And came to the conclusion, that there are many wonderful people in this pursuit with the inalienable right to choose their hearts and (ears) desires.
SO, let me tell you what it looks like on my side of this fence, maybe on occasion (not really but lets pretend) I had an overwhelming desire to chase a Rotel owner down on my horse, - (and I do have one I could use to this purpose and believe me its FUN) hog tie em and force him to listen to my reasoning. The sun would never set on culling the herd, in this way. Cause just as soon as I have one of the varmints cornered, another one would slip away to Lexicon. See where I’m going. ….what does ANY of it matter? Never let the happiness of another diminish your own.

If other Outlaw owners ARE going around shoving satisfaction of ownership down the throats of other owners. Quite honestly I have not seen it. If there is party time at the barby going on in their own territory (threads) that is a very desirable post purchase action, - I hope every owner of every available product is doing in their threads, elst they should be out shopping.) No AV owner has the right or would be right, acting as if the fate of their neighbors golden AV setup, - rested in their (better trained) hands, this is subjectivly impossible - In fact nothing available today is the best or the cheapest or the most expensive thing Fina! that shall ever be built. They’re just another choice on the market, and I’m glad there are so many flavors.

Mary,

I'm not sure how Outlaw "future" owners could shove their satisfaction around 6-12 months before the product actually shipped

Got It!

I think mainly we were standing in the waiting line, our favorite time-killer harassing Outlaw on a weekly basis. And on a good day when we asked ‘when will it be done’ we looked like this......

not a pleasant sight. Actually I feel quite 'battle hardened' for various reasons!


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited April 01, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited April 01, 2003).]

Ricky, I bought my first DPL pioneer receiver in 1988 so I am not new to this hobby, but I usually am more of a reader and less of a poster. Like you, I witnessed the 1050 craze and the 950 hoopla on the HTF and lived to tell about it. I actually was on the first waiting list 15 minutes after opening, so I am well aware of the saga.
With that said, I still can't figure out your obsession with Outlaw. You don't own the 950, you don't like the Outlaws or their business model, so why not dedicate your time to something that makes you more happy? I am curious as to what you are hoping to achieve with your questions in this thread?
I made my decision on what I was looking for and Outlaw had everything I needed. I will admit the price was great but it certainly wasn't a deterrent as it is for some people. I understand this phenomenon because when I am in the grocery store I will buy the more expensive cheese or another product simply because I assume higher price=better product. Fortunately I know enough in this hobby to know what I prefer, and Outlaw sounded great the first time I turned it on. We all can't be Aragon fans or there would be no need for competition.


And this somehow personally scarred you? Seriously, let it go. I hope someday you can get over it, but I understand the deep emotional loss of having to read enthusiastic posts from people who were anticipating a product. That must have been really hard on you, its a miracle you survived, no wonder you are so upset. Good luck.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited April 01, 2003).]

For those keeping score, here's 1, 2, 3, 6, & 7:



1) This is a *feature* that has nothing to do with any of plain vanilla DD, DD EX, DTS, & DTS-ES decoding. For $899, I'll take the CES versions to get to 7.1. For now. I am an 80% 2 channel music guy. If it was 80% HT, then I'd have a Lex DC-2/MC-1 right now.

2) This is genuine. However, I actually tried setting all the config values in the 950 to the same speaker distance once (BM phase test). I didn't hear any appreciable difference on the small sample of soundtracks I tried. (Multichannel music, I admit would be different, but multichannel music is only 5.1 and would use the settings in your player anyway.) And that was with *all* speakers set to the same distance. That's why, for example, when I hear about people holding off on buying DVD-A and/or SACD because of the lack of true time alignment, I just chuckle.

3) Sigh. Using the 80 Hz analog crossover, THERE IS NO DOUBLE BASS. *Most* people do not have full range speakers all around. I consider full range to be -3 dB at 30 Hz. And that is not via company propaganda, that is by 3rd party independent testing a la Stereophile, or the NRC measurements sometimes in Soundstage reviews (www.audiovideoreviews.com => Loudspeakers).

6) You use the phase knob/switch on your sub to compensate for this. I personally would like this feature, but if you understand the wavelength distances involved with setting up proper phase *and* time alignment to your sub, you'd know this isn't necessary. I just want it because my Sony TA-E9000ES had it.

7) The Sony also had this too. I have an inverted input on my sub *with* a variable phase knob, and most other subs have at least a 180 deg phase switch anyway. So how does this affect sonics again?

Any others?



Hee, hee.



[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited April 01, 2003).]

Kevin,

Have you looked at the Anthem AVM-20? I think it covers most (if not all) of the items on your list.

Best,
Sanjay

Jed,

I think what bothered me the most were the biased and IMO unfair antics that a certain pro-outlaw HTF Moderator used (a few others used the word "Nazism").

Ricky, I would think the obvious solution would be to boycott the HTF and take your anger out on them. That doesn't make any sense, somebody calls you a nazi and you get mad at their gear?

I remember how heated it got, but its over, big time. The backlash was vicious over at the HTF and you guys did your damage to the Outlaws and a lot of people got banned. I just think its time to move on. Everybody seems happy with the situation but you and JT. I see you have a new processor and I hope it brings you as much happiness as mine has brought me.

Jed,

Not sure if you understood me. Nobody called me a Nazi (they called the HTF moderator a Nazi). And I did boycott HTF, I didn't post for 9 months, which is like 9 Ricky Years During DTF's heydays, someone called me 3PPH...3 posts per hour The used Aragon Soundstage bought me happiness several weeks ago, the newer model bought me all these new features.

quote:
John, have you never sold/exchanged/replaced/upgraded a piece of your AV? It’s going to happen with the 950 and every other product on the market. There are many men in the forums, whose life’s calling is to upgrade

Smart little Lena,
Yes I have, here are a few processors Ive owned,denon 3801-3802-4802,sony da4es-777es-tap-tae,onkyo898,adcom gtp-830,rotel995 stereo,bottlehead tube pre,lexicon dc-1,dc-2,mc-1,aragon soundstage.

If you do a search on htf you will see that me and Merc have had plenty of discussions/disagreements and I am NOT talking for him just mentioning the fact that he has since moved on from the 950. I am an upgrade freak as well and am always out to save a buck, buying used gear most frequently.

Your comments brings me to my point exactly. I said way back when that one of the best things outlaw had going for it was TIME, because no other pre-pro at the time had all the features and I was one who was waiting with baited breath for the release of the 950. As time passed, the competition grew( and caught up) to the 950. Now there is plenty of competition out there(many fine choices including the 950). Its not like buying speakers or even an amps because technology doesnt move that rapidly in that catagory. Maybe Outlaw will hit my "time window" in the future with a cutting edge product out before its time so to speak.

One other thing about the 950 using the same parts. For instance the aragon sounstage weighs 39 lbs while the 950 weighs 17 ?. I realize the aragon uses a better/heavier faceplate and casing is a bit heavier plus the balanced connects adds a little weight but double the weight ?..hmm

[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 01, 2003).]

That's what I wake up to every morning .. then it's turned off all day until the next morning....

But John, if Outlaw Timed out for you. Why do you spend so much TIME commenting on it? Do I have to have your Aragon, and at a later date, when you purchase something else. Do I HAVE to have that too?

So, you buy your equipment BY THE POUND??? Your comments might make sense in the case of a power amplifier where the power supply needs to be substantial, and thus has substantial weight, but you are way off base if you actually think weight has anything to do with how a preamp actually sounds.

The actual active components (ICs etc.) in ANY electronic device weigh mere fractions of an ounce.

Be aware too that there is a virute in having as simple and direct a signal path as possible. This is just good engineering practice.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited April 01, 2003).]

quote:
But John, if Outlaw Timed out for you. Why do you spend so much TIME commenting on it? Do I have to have your Aragon, and at a later date, when you purchase something else. Do I HAVE to have that too?

Mary, Im very touched that you are so concerned as to how I spend my time {Mom}. I promise I'll get off the internet and eat my dinner. As to your second comment about the Aragon, well you lost me there. If you really want an aragon just pony up and get one.

Soundhound, did I say that I buy my equipment by the pound ?..Just making an observation that if parts are exactly the same as you say(from pre-pro to pre-pro) they thereby should weigh aprox. the same as well. I agree that power supplies/transformers etc. are more of an importence in amps rather then pre-amps (but some would argue otherwise).

Also your comment about not taking money just market research. Well market research isnt free is it ? ask Lexicon how much time/money that they have put into their dsp mode (logic 7)..Theres plenty of companies that would pay dearly for their "market research"

[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 01, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 01, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 01, 2003).]

I'm very aware that some companies market "high current" power supplies for line level components, and some pre/pros have "arc-welder" power supplies, which of course weigh more. However, this is really overkill. In a component that supplies a low level signal that is mainly a voltage rather than a current, there is absolutely no need, nor sonic advantage in having a power supply that can supply more current than is needed to operate the circuitry (with reasonable voltage over-capacity to take into account low voltage AC situations).

Line level equipment like a pre/pro does not supply a significant current to the load. Simple Ohm's law calculations can tell you the amount of current and voltage that is needed for a particular signal drive. Having a power supply that can supply orders of magnitude more current that the circuitry can use may make you feel good that you have a "high quality" component, but this "feature" has absolutely no bearing on how the component sounds. All that excess current capacity goes unused simply because the circuitry doesn't require it (ohm's law).

A power amplifier is a different story, since as it's name implies, it delivers power, which is a function of voltage and significant current delivery.


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited April 01, 2003).]

{Mom}. I promise I'll get off the internet and eat my dinner.

If only it was that easy! You’d be in ‘time out’ so fast your head would spin.

You do seem to be implying that a processor and/or amplifier's weight is a good measure of its inherent quality. Since Aragon's processor is heavier than Outlaw's it must be better-- right? Well, Outlaw's Model 770, 200 watt 7 channel amp weighs more than 90+ pounds. The Aragon Model 2007, 7 channel amp, with 200 watts into 8 ohms and 300 watts into 4 ohms weighs...... 49 pounds! Hey, where's the beef? Maybe Aragon left out all the quality parts? Or, maybe they don't see a relationship of weight to quality? Or, sadly, maybe Aragon ain't what it used to be. And, maybe, some are paying a lot more money for.... a name. Aragon's line does look good though, I'll give you that. Best wishes...

Whoa Steves,

Set down your coffee and go back and reread my post. Soundhound said that all the parts were EXACTLY the same in the 950 as other higher ended pre-pros (yes I said higher ended) anyway, giving this they should weigh aprx. the same was the point as stated, secondly my next post said I agreed with his statement(its right there for you to read)..

As far as Aragons new line up of amps go I agree, quality has gone down hill, but it also has a much cheaper pricetag and lighter then the classic aragons, which were better amps to begin with (probably by a long shot)

Money for a name ?..geez how many times do I hear that same old line..yea,yea I know everybody is just waisting their money
for the name (rotel/anthem/aragon/lexicon)..etc

You know, I had a good old NHT sub amp that also ran in class "g" just like the new outlaw after what 80 watts or so ?..

[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 01, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 01, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by JohnTompkins (edited April 01, 2003).]

Steve,

The new Aragon 200x amps are closely related to the Acurus amps. I think only the new 8008MkII and Palladium 1K monos are true classic Aragon amps in the new Aragon line. The classic 8008x5 is merely a FIVE channel amp and weighs 110+ lbs and is 23.5 inches deep. The new 300x amps? I'm not sure. This is very indicative of my dealer/friend's conversation with the former owner of Mondial Designs (who sold his company to Klipsch)....Klipsch gutted some of the products.

I think the Outlaw amps are weight proportional to price and total wattage...notice the differences between the 750, 755, and 770. Unlike the B&K 5 and 7 channel 200 wpc amps that weigh exactly the same, the 770 weighs 12 lbs more than the 755.

Hi everyone,
I usually don't post here but as a I was previously contemplating buying the 950 I still read the post occasionally. I should fist say that I do not own 950 or anthem or a prepro since early on I decided non of the above would give me the sonic satisfaction in 2ch so I ended up with a tube pre (Conrad Johnson 14L) and kept using my Denon receiver for the HT. Now to the discussion of the "what's better". My experience has been after a certain point spending more will only achive much smaller increase in performance. Case and point, I have a Parasound amp HCA 2205 5x220 that I used for the front channels (left and right biamped) after my experience with the tube pre (and my great satisfaction) I decided to buy a tube amp and I bought the Rogue Magnum M120 that cost twice as much as the Parasound. I can say that side-by-side comparison the Parasound is 90% there. The extra 10% cost another 1500 or so. The moral of the story is the "perceived value". If it is worth it to "YOU" to pay extra 500-2000 for a better looking faceplate, more features or perhaps 10% better sonics then it is worth it. Just sit back and enjoy your system life is too short to sit behind the computer.

Phillip,

I apologize for putting words in your mouth and taking your words out of context. Enjoy the sounds and see ya on the forums...still have three identical B&W 602s across the front

Ricky

Those identical 602s aren't going anywhere, I love 'em!