other receivers have? (besides an amplifier)

I'm seriously considering this piece, but I'd like to see why I would go with this and not a decent reciver plus the 7100 Amp.

Price Range for comparable Receiver being around the $1000 mark.


[This message has been edited by Hokie99 (edited March 10, 2003).]

....the expensive THX logo?

what's the price range? if you're considering something like the Denon 5803 or Marantz sr9200 (2 that I was considering before ordering the 950 and friends) the only thing you'd gain is S-video -> component conversion... but you'd lose some if you go with the internal amplification.. but either of those would be more expensive than almost any combination you could put together here

[This message has been edited by Unferth (edited March 10, 2003).]

Analog crossover on the 5.1 inputs. No receiver at all has this.

I'm not sure this is a strong plus as implemented.

The obvious one is the flexibility of separates - amps are much more stable technology than the processor, and in any case they are logical candidates for decoupling. If you need more amp, no problem. If you want to get newer processing modes or whatever, no problem.

On the minus side, some have commented on the 950 having a less than perfectly polished user interface and set of 'convenience' features, like relabelable inputs, per-mode trims, etc.

I'm not sure what subset of that the competitive receivers would implement though.

You're saying that the Outlaw has this, but no receiver does. This is for DVD-Audio correct?

That is correct, Kevin is saying that the 950's 6-channel analog input has analog bass management, which receivers will not have. Useful for DVD-Audio and SACD both.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

i tried an onk 898 receiver before the 950 (the first receiver of any kind to ever be in my system).

there was a horrible hiss in the front right speaker with some modes. there was a clicking sound in the sub which, after 2 weeks, spread to the center chanmnel. the 'local authorized service tech' said he didn't have a clue what the cause was, or what to do about it.

the difference with the 950, for me, is that outlaw acknowledges a problem immediately and sets a course to correct it. onkyo didn't even acknowledge that other folks had the same problem i did.

needless to say, i sent it back. i thought it sounded pretty good otherwise, but when i connected the 950, wife, sons, friends...ALL... said the 950 sounded light years better. (same amps, same speakers, same software)

i believe that BM is crucial to dvd-a/sacd. the 950's BM is very accurate and worth at least $100 of the total price.

5 year warranty...from a company that obviously backs it. receiver manufacturers will charge a good bit extra for that sort of extended warranty.

you won't get 'hall', 'church', 'stadium', etc., which is just varying digital delay, or, a REALLY cheesy digital reverb feature.

i'm not sold on ES/EX/circle surround/logic 7...i think, for now, 5.1 is where multi-channel sound is at. price/features/warranty/and SOUND, the 950 is the product of the decade. the icbm is a very close second. i haven't heard any of the multi-channel outlaw amps, but i also believe they are a great value.

Trying to consolidate all the replies, here is what we have so far:

Receivers Advantage

• Up Conversion of S-Video to Component
• THX certification
• DSP modes

Outlaw Advantage

• 6 channel Analog Crossover(including BM) for DVD-A/SACD
• DTS-ES discrete
• crossover freq for individual speakers or for sets of speakers
• 5 year transferrable warranty

I didn't count the separates as a plus because that's pretty much a given. This is good, can we get a few more


[This message has been edited by Hokie99 (edited March 11, 2003).]

Receivers around $1000 will not have upconversion of s-video to component video.

I personally do not consider THX certification an advantage since I prefer to pay for sound quality, not a badge.

The DSP sound modes is also not a good criteria by itself. It is actually how the sound modes are implemented. That is logic 7 is a sound mode as is "hall" but they are in no way equivalent modes or methods.

I didn't really mean thx cert. to be an advantage of recievers

...Am I right in the assertion that THX cert. is just basically a stamp that the device has a fixed 80hz crossover on all channels and has at least some number of watts per channel and probably some kind of distortion or S/N requirements...

Also, don't companies have to pay for the certification? It's just used for a selling point for the uninformed masses at Best-Buy and Tweeter (the latter more-so)

is that the jist of it? or is there something more worth while with it?

The street price of the Denon 3803 with up-conversion is $900.

I agree the THX certification is not a true advantage.

Also DSP modes aren't necessarily an advantage, but are a feature that the outlaw lacks.

The Outlaw 5 year warranty is transferable too.

It would be rare to find a receiver in the $1000 range that is THX certified. Maybe THX Select, but certainly not THX Ultra2.

One more possibly. The 950 is compatible with DTS-ES discrete. A lot of receivers are only compatible with DTS-ES matrix.

Ahhh, most receivers only have a fixed, single crossover freq for all speakers (Yamaha), some have a global setting for all speakers (Denon), but it is rare to have settings for individual speakers or for sets of speakers (Sony and now H/K). The last is what the 950 has.

The 80 Hz analog crossover on the 5.1 inputs is a very good thing. Just that if you *don't* use it, *then* you get the dreaded "double bass" problem.

it would be cool if you could list the receivers that are truly equal competition for the 950 by price/features/warranty/sound.

the problem is that NO receiver manufacturer has a forum like this one that documents every conceivable problem with the product.

when the problem shows up here, outlaw does something about it. and any warranty service is done by outlaw, not the local jiffy lube/service tech center.

different strokes and all that. buy whatever you think is best for you, but i like this place. you get instant responses to every question. no receiver/pre-pro/player has been released without problems. getting answers/solutions...or even being made aware of a problem...is agony where the big manufacturers are concerned.

so, add this forum to the plus side for the 950.

I sort of missed the forum activity late last week and this weekend, and it looks like I missed a bit of excitement around here...

Part of the question here has to be "what receivers are we talking about?" My old pre/pro chart lists a few of the higher-end receivers along with some of the more prevalent pre/pros on the market, but it only tells part of the story. Yes, a few of the "flagship" receivers offer s-video to component upconversion (Denon 5803 and Pioneer Elite 49TX come to mind), but they are about the only ones. Many flagship receivers include THX certification and THX decoding (a variation of Dolby Digital / Dolby Digital EX), but that is less common on lower priced receivers. Analog bypass for stereo two-channel inputs is rare on receivers (I think the Denon 5803 has it) -- a feature that has become common on newer pre/pros like the 950, Rotel 1066, B&K Ref50, and Anthem AVM20. As some others have noted, many receivers still provide only a fixed 80Hz crossover for bass management, whereas the 950 has separate adjustable crossovers for mains, center, and surrounds. The warranty and the support for the 950 is unusual, as already mentioned here (5 year warranty, online community of users, manufacturer that works hard on customer service).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Oops. Posted in wrong thread. That'll teach me to post on the board so early in the morning.

But I would add my backup for Outlaw customer support and warranty. It's a REAL thing as we early adopters can testify, not just a fancy looking page in the back of the manual.

[This message has been edited by boblinds (edited March 11, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by boblinds (edited March 11, 2003).]

You mean the DTS-ES bass management issue? Somebody near the end of the page linked above said that there was a report at AVS of someone with a P2000 suggestingn that there was not a problem, but there wasn't enough information to know if the test was conducted properly.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

The 950 is missing two key features that my two generations old Denon 3801 receiver had. The 950 does not autoswitch between a digital signal and an analog signal. This is important if you have digital cable where some channals are still analog. The 950 only has 5.1 preamp inputs. 7.1 inputs would allow you to hook your DVD-A or SACD rears to the rear speakers vice the side surrounds.

Tom

If you fit into the 5 small speakers and a subwoofer stereotype, but for many the inability to turn off the inappropriate bass management is actually a minus. In my personal opinion for my system it's worse than nothing, and if I end up with a non-Outlaw unit it will certainly weigh into that choice. It's sad too, since all that would have been required would be to shut off the bass summing when the crossover switch is off.

This is great feedback. Another round of feature comparisons.

Receivers Advantage

• Up Conversion of S-Video to Component
• THX certification (may or may not be important)
• THX decoding (a variation of Dolby Digital / Dolby Digital EX)
• autoswitch between a digital signal and an analog signal
• 7.1 preamp inputs
• DSP modes (not important to most)

Outlaw Advantage

• 6 channel Analog Crossover(including BM) for DVD-A/SACD
• DTS-ES discrete
• separate adjustable crossovers freq for mains, center, and surrounds
• Analog bypass for stereo two-channel inputs
• 5 year transferrable warranty
• online community of users
• manufacturer that works hard on customer service

There is a useful tool called (IIRC) a PMI chart, where you list plus, minus, and interesting differences. I find it useful since not all differences fit neatly into plus/minus categories.

My personal list would be something like this:

950 vs RCVR

Plus:

• DTS-ES discrete
• separate adjustable crossovers freq for mains, center, and surrounds
• Decoupled processing from amps
• Analog bypass for stereo two-channel inputs
• 5 year transferable warranty
• on-line community of users
• manufacturer that works hard on customer service

Minus:

• No up Conversion of S-Video to Component
• No THX decoding (a variation of Dolby Digital / Dolby Digital EX)
• No autoswitch between a digital signal and an analog signal
• No 7.1 preamp inputs, just 5.1

Interesting:

• No DSP modes (not important to most)
• Limited analog bass management on 950
• No THX certification (may or may not be important)

Or something like that.

Plus:

• Big Bang/Buck ratio
• Quality sonics
• Amaaaazing customer support
• The saloon
• Green power button
• Cowboy logo
• Ponies
• Poems & songs

Negative:

• Takes a leap of faith to try it out
• Global calibration levels
• User interface may not be as refined as some receivers.

Interesting to see that a few of you 'ol doggies have mentioned the lack of DSP modes on the 950. I seem to recall that way-way-way back when they were planning the feature set for the 950, the Outlaws had one of their polls or contest things where they asked the community if they thought that it would be worth including "hall", "theater", "stadium", "club" modes. Again, it's a recollection at this point, but wasn't the answer a resounding "no, don't want 'em/don't bother"?

Of course, there were must have been people who did want those modes, and that's fine. However, wasn't this something that got put up to a vote?

But what do I know, I'm only a dog!

ARF ARF, says Iggy!

As Iggy says (barks?), the lack of DSP "modes" is a direct result of this forum. The results of this contest made it pretty clear that the folks here in the saloon didn't have any use for them. Oh, and mxy15 snagged himself a free 950 in that deal...

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

"The 950 does not autoswitch between a digital signal and an analog signal. This is important if you have digital cable where some channals are still analog.
-------------------------------------------
"7.1 preamp inputs"
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Outlaw please consider this for the "next" 950

Let's cut to the chase. Everyone here knows what the 950 lacks and something we all wish deep down it had - a headphone jack. I miss the one on my 1976 vintage Pioneer.

Don

[This message has been edited by scubadj (edited March 12, 2003).]

Gonk:

Much like my heros, Astro and Scooby Do, I don't bark that much. Yes, I type a great deal, but there is a special keyboard that enables me to do that.

I only bark when there are HF problems in the master's speakers.

Of course, my REAL hero is Nipper, the first true "audio dog".

But what do I know, I'm only a dog!

ARF ARF says (NOT BARKS) Iggy

This is a very useful feature that I never thought about. How do you even tell if a component does this? How would it be described in the literature?

... Roger

The Sony TA-E9000ES does this. Something like "source type autoselect."

My Yamaha did this and it also let you prioritize those signals for each input. This question was the first that I posted when I got my 950. Really wish it had it, bet the next version will

An interesting thing of note for the Sony: if you did leave it in "source type autoselect mode" (or whatever it was called), the noise floor would be noticeably higher than if you configured each input for the type of physical connection to use. So at least on the Sony, not the panacea that it could have been. The hiarchy was set on the Sony, neat that on the Yamaha you could prioritize what connection to look for 1st...