Ok so what is the deal? Do we get LFE (other than redirected bass)if all speakers are set to small in DTS-ES? Do we get LFE (other than redirected bass) when the fronts are set to large with surrounds set to small? I was really starting to like this thing too... Where is the Outlaw rep? You would think they would want to comment. I wonder if the Atlantic and Sherbourn versions of this Pre/pro are experiencing the same Issue?

[This message has been edited by nohjy (edited March 08, 2003).]

Here are the results of my test pass:

Outlaw 950, purchased 2/10/03
No amp hooked up
SVS 16-46 PCi connected to SUB
JVC XV-S60BK DVD player connected via coax digital
LOTR EE for source, used fireworks chapter

DTS-ES selected from DVD menu, started movie:
Rear speakers set to NONE: LFE signal present
Rear speakers set to LB/RB: LFE signal present (louder than NONE, some crossover?)
Rear speakers set to BS(LB): LFE signal present (same volume as LB/RB)

Switched to DD 5.1 EX:
LFE signal available

(Here's where the fun starts!)

Switched back to DTS-ES with rears set to LB/RB
No LFE signal present

I switched the rears from LB/RB to BS(LB), passing through NONE in the menu: LFE returned

In BS(LB), I returned to the DVD menu (DD), then back to the movie (DTS-ES): LFE absent

I switched the rears from BS(LB) to LB/RB, passing through NONE in the menu: LFE returned

In LB/RB, I returned to the DVD menu (DD), then back to the movie (DTS-ES): LFE absent

I switched the rears from LB/RB to BS(LB), without passing through NONE (arrowed the other direction): LFE absent

I switched the rears to NONE: LFE returned.

In NONE, I returned to the DVD menu (DD), then back to the movie (DTS-ES): LFE present

I switched to LB/RB, went to menu and back in order to lose LFE, then powered the unit off then on: LFE absent

Conclusion:

If you have rear speakers set to anything but NONE, and you switch from DTS-ES to DD (the LOTR menu is in DD), when you switch back to DTS-ES your LFE is gone. But wait, it gets better, and this may be important on the technical troubleshooting side! After you lose your LFE, if you change your rears to NONE, OR EVEN PASS THROUGH NONE ON THE SELECTION LIST, you get LFE back. If you switch from one speaker setting to another without passing through the NONE selection (depending on which direction you travel through the list), LFE does not return. There's something magic about NONE. Toggling through NONE on my way from LB/RB to BS(LB) failed once, but it may have been that I was moving too fast.

Turning the unit off then on again while the movie was playing did not bring the LFE signal back.

So, I think it's a problem switching from DD to DTS-ES with rear speakers enabled, and the state is not reset when the power (well, at least standby) is cycled.

The only reason my first DTS-ES pass worked was because I started the movie from the menu with the rears set to NONE.

Can anyone repro this? Prove me wrong? Find something I missed?

--Mike



[This message has been edited by Llamas (edited March 08, 2003).]

LLamsa: I definately give you credit for your extensive testing!

But...



Two questions:

1) OK, so I'm supposed to remember this every time I want to watch a DTS-ES movie on with the 950?

2) One thing that doesn't make sense, most menus of the DVDs I'm familiar with, are only in DD, so in effect, you *have* to switch from DD to DTS at some point? Right? I will have to try this, because when I tested for this the other night with the Stargate DTS-ES disc, I *specifically* tried DD first because I knew that should work. (Easier to prove a negative if you get a postive 1st.) I will also try this by *initially* setting up the DVD input with DTS too. Interesting.

And if Sanjay's out there... When I watched Stargate last weekend: popped the disc in, set DTS-ES from the disc's menu, and played it. So maybe I got the LFE in that case anyway. So maybe I don't have to re-watch it with CES DTS...


jgubman- I agree with every you said. Except that I would have gone for the Ref 50...

I'm starting to get a not so warm and fuzzy about Cirrus DSP. Think of all the other bugs we put up with. Have to be in a 5.1 mode before you switch to DVD or you only get the front 2 channels for the tone generator or the 6 ch input. And Pioneer replaced the Cirrus DACs that were in originally in the 47a with Burr Brown's for the 47ai because the 47a got such bad reviews for audio sound quality. (I never did view this company as robustly as Moto, or AD with their SHARCs.)

Since it's the weekend, we might have to wait until Mon for something from Outlaw.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited March 08, 2003).]

Mike,

I'm a little confused about what you were exactly testing from your post, but I think what you're seeing is that by selecting NONE as your rear effects speakers, you switch the SOUNDFIELD ON THE 950 from DTS-ES to DTS (the soundfield, NOT what signal the dvd-player is passing).

I think you'd get the same results if you just leave your rear effects speakers set to BS or LB/RB and push the DTS button on your remote (and cycle through the dts soundfields).

I *think* your conclusion supports the bug that we've all been reporting: with the 950's soundfield (DSP, whatever it's called on the outlaw) set to DTS-ES, there is no LFE output.

I've since put in just a regular old DTS title (not DTS-ES) and selected the DTS-ES soundfield on the 950 (speakers set to Large, rear speakers set to LB/RB and BS) and confirmed that there is NO LFE output.

I played the DTS demo (interior of a piano w/ the keys striking the piano wire), tons of LFE w/ the soundfield set to DTS, nothing w/ the soundfield set to DTS-ES.

I just tried cycling the power on the unit during the DTS introduction while in DTS-ES soundfield on the 950.

No LFE.

I'll have to try a straight DTS title. You may be right that even though the OSD says DTS-ES, it may play straight DTS when the rears are set to NONE, and perhaps by passing through NONE when I'm changing the rears, or when starting from NONE, the 950 stays in/goes into DTS (non-ES) mode and that's what gets the LFE back.

I'll go mess with this some more. I am pretty sure that the OSD was telling me DTS-ES throughout this whole thing, but that may not be telling the whole story.

Kevin, if there isn't more to the DTS vs DTS-ES stuff mentioned above, and the only issue is when transitioning from DD to DTS-ES, then yeah, it looks like every time you wanted to watch a DTS-ES movie, you'd have to start the movie, change your rears to NONE then back in order to get LFE.

--Mike


[This message has been edited by Llamas (edited March 08, 2003).]

jgubman wins a prize!

I had to get used to the toggling, since the first time you push the button it shows the input, and second and subsequent presses change the mode, but...

The magic of NONE is that it is changing into DTS. I was able to lose LFE by my above tested method, and get it back by switching to DTS manually. I also observed that if I went through NONE on my way from one rear type to another, when emerging from the menus I was in DTS. I could then switch the DTS-ES manually, and LFE would disappear again.

So, in the end, it's as simple as:

No LFE in DTS-ES

At least I know a little bit more about what's going on when I'm changing my speaker settings...

--Mike

Well, I just tried a few things. Powering up, switching immediately to DTS-ES mode before starting the DVD, I even tried changing from 7.1 to 5.1 and then back, either with DTS-ES mode engaged *before* I started the movie playing or even during. Nothing I did would give me LFE for DTS-ES. DTS yes, DTS-ES no.

If someone could replicated this, and give the exact instructions, I'd try it.


(Yeah, going from 7.1 speakers to 5.1 puts you in DTS mode, with LFE, but when you add the 2 rears back in, and switch back to DTS-ES, no LFE.)


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited March 08, 2003).]

I cannot duplicate this. I do not have this problem. You might not be waiting long enough for the 950 to switch to the selected surround mode-- it sometimes takes several seconds.
The only way I cannot get LFE output in DTS-ES is with the Surrounds set to Large. "Surround Rear" set to any configuration makes no difference-LFE is present. Right now, by my testing, if you want to run your mains (fronts) ans center as Large- it should work fine. If you run your surrounds as LARGE- no LFE in DTS-ES mode. By the way-- who sets their speakers in this config? Just wondering.

Is this the way you set all your speakers? Surrounds and rear surrounds as large?
Before you buy that Anthem, you might want to test it first

nohjy asked:
Yes

I do.
Where are the Outlaws, you ask? Out shoveling snow?

[This message has been edited by steves (edited March 08, 2003).]