I bought my first DVD with a DTS-ES 6.1 discrete soundtrack."Lord of the Rings" extended verison.Upon viewing,I noticted my sub's had no output. I had front speakers set at "Large", I switched them to "Small" and the sub had normal output.I then changed over to the DD-EX verison w/fronts at large and the LFE channel had normal output.
My 950 responded to the DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 soundtrack by displaying this format and processing the signal w/o LFE but it did not catch the DD-EX flag only displayed DD 5.1,I had to manually set the 950 to Dolby-EX.
So, is the DVD defective or has anyone else had this problem with decoding DTS-ES?
Thanks if anyone can verify.

the disc you're referring to DEFINITELY has LFE content. my system setup has signal indicators for redirected bass and LFE, so i can always tell if any particular format contains LFE info.

not only does LOTR have LFE content, it's the most extreme content of any disc i own.

as to whether or not it's a software problem, i wouldn't conclude that without some testing.

Thanks Bossobass, I agree plenty LFE but does not output LFE in DTS-ES with fronts set to "Large"! I have sub setting ON

Just wondering if anyone else has tested this yet? (I mean too, but haven't gotten to it yet.)

I rented "Gladiator" w/DTS-ES 6.1 soundtrack.
No LFE from my 950 when fronts set to large.
I also have a multi-format DVD-A by "Jonatha Brooke", included is a 5.1 DTS verison, No LFE output from this disc either!
I like to keep my fronts set to large,esp w/music. My 950 seems to degrade the presentation when I set the fronts to small no matter which crossover freq I select.
It doesn't seem to be a software issue.
Can anyone else try this out.Thanks

Massi2u, I have “Gladiator”, and several other DTS versions, last few days all my AV time has been shopping/setting my mom up. Am skipping going over tonight. She’s good to go till I upgrade her dish STB for HD which will be a weeks process. But the guys bought “The Ring” and rented something else so I can’t interrupt tonight. Give me till tomorrow (I home office) or worse case, if the phones are busy (I never know what emergencies I’ll have each day. I’ll run them all through this weekend.

Yeah, I was kind of figuring, that if we aren't getting LFE output for DTS-ES, it would be the same for DTS...

I just watched the new Ultimate Edition of Stargate *last* weekend. Also DTS-ES. But this thread didn't pop up until Mon...


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited March 05, 2003).]

as i've mentioned before, i'm using a bass management system that i devised a few months ago and i don't have the ambition to reconnect my setup the conventional way. however, i can verify the following:

dts-es discs: pearl harbor, gladiator and lord of the rings ALL have LFE content. with speakers all set to 'large', there is no redirected bass (as it should be).

with my system, the speaker config menu doesn't affect the LFE signal whatsoever, so i can't verify whether or not the LFE gets lost or otherwise redirected when front speakers are set to 'large' in the conventional system.

some dvd-a discs have no LFE info (this amounts to false labeling of the discs as being 5.1 when, in fact, they are 5.0... thank you, mr. elen).

massi2u: where did you buy the lord of the rings disc?

i did notice one curious thing in my tests that i didn't know before. i tested some dts-cd discs also. i tried to play them through the 6 ch bypass and got a loud hiss instead of music. i wasn't aware that dts-cd isn't output through the player's analog outs.

i'm also curious to know why you (massi2u) get nothing in your sub with fronts set to 'large'. unless ALL of your satellites are also set to 'large', you should at least be hearing some redirected bass from them in your sub.

anyway, if anyone else tests this situation out, make sure ALL satellites are set to 'large' so only LFE should be in the sub.

massi2u: when setting main satellites to 'small', i'm guessing that you have vented front speakers. depending on which ones, the 12db/octave high pass filter that's applied when setting them to 'small' alters the low freq slope to 36 db/octave and may cause a bump in response at the corner frequency (and it will be slightly different for each HP point selected). this makes for a bad crossover with a sub LP slope of 24db/octave (the standard BM LP slope), resulting in a hole and a bump at crossover. also, as KCB has said before, there may be phase issues added to this problem. finally, your subwoofer may simply not be doing a good job, making it impossible to reintegrate the redirected bass.

you can try setting your sub's LP point at 10 hz higher than the HP you select for the mains and experiment with the phase reverse switch and/or control. if you do, give it a couple of days so your ears can acclimate.

this isn't such a big deal in 2 ch music, but a sub and the same high pass for all speakers set to 'small' is definitely better for multi-channel formats.

[This message has been edited by bossobass (edited March 05, 2003).]

OK, this is what I found. I used 2 discs. Pitch Black, which is "normal" 5.1 DTS, and the new ultimate edition of Stargate, which is a 6.1 DTS-ES disc. All speakers set as large in the 950. Amps for the mains turned off.

I do not get the LFE content with DTS-ES, but with DTS I do. The plot thickens. If I "force" normal DTS on the Stargate disc, I get LFE (cycle the DTS button on the 950's remote). With DTS-ES, not.

If I "force" DTS-ES on the normal DTS disc, no LFE either. (I thought maybe it had something to do with the flag. Does automatically come up DTS-ES with the Stargate disc.)

An obvious "somewhat" workaround is to use the CES DTS mode even for 6.1 DTS-ES discs (I checked this too, got LFE), but...

Now I know the reason for software upgrades.

Scott?


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited March 06, 2003).]

Uh-oh. Looks like I'll have to try this out. I've watched a few DTS-ES disks and haven't really noticed it but I'm not set to large on any of my speakers (so presumably I got some redirected bass).

Cary

Kevin, ...but then you don't get the supposed benefit of the discrete surround-back channel of the 6.1 soundtrack. Also, as you probably already know, CES decoding is different from ES decoding: after the surround-back information is extracted, the CES process does not cancel that content from the Left & Right surround channels (as ES/EX process does).

BTW, for anyone that has the 'Stargate: Ultimate Edition' DVD, try the 2-channel track using the PL II CES mode. Specifically, listen to chapters 28 and 21; the latter is a quiet scene and an especially effective demo of what a modern matrix decoder is capable of: you'll hear distinct left vs right and side vs rear placement of surround content. All from just two discrete channels. A far cry from the old Pro Logic days. Check it out!

Best,
Sanjay

Sanjay- CES DTS vs DTS-ES: I know, that's why I call it a "somewhat" workaround.

massi2u,

Does your DVD-A by Jonathan Brooke LFF signal come out o.k. when in any other DTS mode, aside from DTS-ES? Thanks for the test. I don't have that particulary DVD-A disc.

Kevin, Still, I'd rather take your workaround than not have surround back content and (more importantly) lose the LFE channel.

Sanjay

Oh, man... I'm at the tail end of my evaluation period, and this alone may prompt me to send it back.

--Mike

I did further comparison between DTS-ES &
DD-EX,I don't think my 950 outputs the .1 channel(LFE) at all in DTS-ES 6.1 discrete.
The only sub activity is from the redirected bass when fronts are set to small.
DTS-ES 6.1 discrete seems to be at fault.
The "LFE" functions properly in all other modes.

[This message has been edited by massi2u (edited March 06, 2003).]

Is this an isolated problem? Or are there more owners out there that are coming across this?

------------------
Play it LoUd!!

Bossobass:
I have all speakers set at large except center. Got "LOR" at Blockbusters

Sanjay- I agree. I'm a little bummed because I watched/listened to the Stargate DVD last weekend in DTS-ES mode, and now I'm thinking I should go back and watch it again with CES DTS.

Llamas- Hang tight. I bet Outlaw's customer service will come galloping forth to deliver us some news about this soon...

I wonder... The Rotel uses the same DSP engine, if they have the same problem... Heck, the 950 has been out for over a year (depending on how you count) and massi2u was the 1st to spot it...

[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited March 07, 2003).]

just wondering:

anyone else using blockbuster discs?

do you have 1 or 2 surround back speakers?

is your sub connected via the 950's sw output?

does setting surround back speakers to 'none' have any effect on the test?

Kevin, It's not a great film, but it's fun enough to hold up to multiple viewings. Watch your favourite parts in DTS CES and see how significant the difference is. Also, try those two chapters I mentioned (in the extended cut) using PL II CES mode on the 2-channel track.

Sanjay

Just got my 950/7100 combo yesterday. I set my effect speakers to none because I don't have any yet. Watched Stargate in dts for a little while and the sub was going nuts!! No problem with mine. I did throw in LOTR dts and the first chapter with the mega bass drop, I couldn't feel it but I did have my config for the sub set at -9dbs, which according to my spl was reference. I did move it back to 00dbs and the sub sounded nice and tight!

wmarkw,

The problem seems to be manifesting with DTS-ES, but not with DTS. Which mode were you in?

This is why flashable firmware is *really* nice to have.....

Charlie

so all DTS-ES soundtracks lose the LFE channel? This isn't an isolated incident?

Hmm..maybe I'll wait for a new pre/pro from the Outlaws b4 I get the 950 now.

This shouldnt be happening at all, regardless of what speakers sizes are set too. This bothers me, and I am days away from ordering the 950

------------------
Play it LoUd!!

I'll be checking this out on my 950, this weekend. I just borrowed a friend's LOTR set for this purpose.

--Mike

I've noticed when playing a dvd recorded in dts-es when I "PAUSE" play the 950 display will show Input Type DTS 3/2.0
Press "PLAY" it will show Input Type DTS DSCR 6.1
I guess this means my 950 can't process DTS 6.1 which is one of the main reasons I bought it.
Has anyone else verified this problem?

Hi. My turn. Played my copy of "Gladiator" tonight in DTS-ES mode. Played "Unleash Hell" scene with Fronts set to "Small" first, then "Large". I then set all speaks to "Large". I have LFE output to my subs in all configurations. Each configuration sounds somewhat different, but I would expect them to. My thought is this-- I would guess very few "full range" speakers are capable delivering reference level bass in any quantity below 40-50dB. Many subs will not reach reference levels (depending on a lot of things- like size of room) in the "real" bass range, but they will probably get you closer than a full-range speaker. Are you sure when you selected DTS-ES from the menu it stayed in this config? Did you physically put your hand on the sub to see if anything is being output to it? I don't know what the problem could be, but mine seems to work fine. Best of luck at finding the problem. OH, and did you call Outlaw and ask them about this?

Well..... steves findings have confused this issue even more. Im glad he ran the tests though.

Looks like I'll wait a while to see how this all unfolds before I order the 950.

------------------
Play it LoUd!!

Steves, Thanks for the help. I'm glad yours works properly. I will call "Outlaw" get mine fixed. I have tested with serveral dts-es dics. My sub amp has meters which register any signal and I've felt the woofer. The LFE works fine while in 5.1 dts.
Thanks again, mike

i wonder if this is a red dot vs blue dot vs no dot thing?

With two channel CD's (not DVD's) there's sometimes pretty good left vs right and side vs rear placement of surround content using just two speakers, playing regular CD's even without using PL II or PL II CES, because many regular CD's have powerful but subtle psycho-accoustics mixes of the soundtrack built in.

Some two channel CD's sound more alive and vibrant and exciting to me in regular two channel stereo than in 5.1 channel PL II-M or DTS NEO-M.

Just thought I'd give my personal observations. Of course YMMV.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited March 08, 2003).]

Steves- Did you turn off all your speakers except for your sub? That's the only way to be sure. Do you know what vintage your 950 is from? With a red dot or bought before Dec 17, or bought after Dec 17 or with a blue dot?

When I turn off all my speakers, I get no LFE channel for DTS-ES. I get it for DTS, and I get it for DD, and DD EX, so I know it's just a problem with DTS-ES. CES DD and CES DTS modes also work. Just DTS-ES.

I even turned my sub up just to make sure there wasn't some wierd + or - 10 dB thing going on (the auto boost you get with DD/DTS that for example, SACD and DVD-A don't have).

I haven't contacted Outlaw yet, because I know they watch these forums. I'm guessing they are confirming this on their own right now. Or, I'm guessing that they already know, and they are formulating a strategy on how to handle this. Purple dot this time?

I do have a blue dot (equiv) unit. Never tested it on the previous red dot (equiv) one I had.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited March 08, 2003).]

Kevin, Thanks for checking

Completed hooking up my 950/7100 this morning and one of the the first DVDs I tried was the Gladiator DTS-ES.
With front speakers set to Large, the rest to Small and the 950 showing DTS-ES mode during playing, I do get LFE from the sub during the "Unleashed Hell" chapter. However, it is a lot lower than normal, I had to turn the sub up to hear it. I comfirmed by touching the sub, put my ear adjacent to it and by both.

I like the 950/7100 combo so far...

JkFruit, Try dts-es playback with all speakers set to "Large". My 950 has no LFE output just redirected bass from "Small" settings.
Thanks,massi2u

Massi2u
When setting is large for all speakers, I get no LFE for the sub.

Thanks JkFruit,
Where's the Beef? (.1)that is!

Kevin-- I turned off all speakers per your request--- I got the same results you did--- I even tried the new "Stargate" disc--same result. Leaving it in DTS-ES, **and** leaving all speakers TURNED OFF- I then went to the menu and configured the fronts as large- and I had LFE! I then set the center as Large also and still had LFE. HOWEVER-- as soon as I set the surrounds as LARGE-- I had nothing- NO LFE! So, what does this all mean? I don't know! But it seems if you leave your surrounds set as small it works. Hopefully someone else can confirm this? My 950 is an original "no-dot". I was in the original early reservation group. (Coming up on its first birthday soon)! I have never really had any issues with mine, so never went to the red or blue dot versions. As an FYI I run all my speakers config'ed as small. Fronts are B&W M803's, Surrounds are B&W M805's and the center is B&W NHTM1. Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it Best wishes...... Steve

No DTS-ES LFE for me either.

I have a blue-dot 950, SH Hiss-fixed unit.

Turned all my speakers to Large, turned my amps off (obviously not my subwoofers') and threw LOTR EE in.
Selected DTS-ES from the menu.
950 confirmed that the signal it received was DTS-ES discrete.

Got nothing from my subwoofer. Changed the soundmode to DTS and got full LFE.

Also tested w/ Simone:
nothing in DTS-ES, full LFE in DTS. Changed my dvd-player's output to DD-EX and selected DD-EX on the 950. Got full LFE.

This happens if I have my 950 set up as a 6.1 or 7.1 system (rear effects speakers set to 1 or 2 speakers).


I have faith in Outlaw to fix this GLARINGLY OBVIOUS problem. Can't believe that this unit made it out of QA in this condition and that none of us caught this earlier.

I'm really beginning to wish I had just saved the extra $1k and bought the Anthem AVM-20...


[This message has been edited by jgubman (edited March 08, 2003).]

Ok so what is the deal? Do we get LFE (other than redirected bass)if all speakers are set to small in DTS-ES? Do we get LFE (other than redirected bass) when the fronts are set to large with surrounds set to small? I was really starting to like this thing too... Where is the Outlaw rep? You would think they would want to comment. I wonder if the Atlantic and Sherbourn versions of this Pre/pro are experiencing the same Issue?

[This message has been edited by nohjy (edited March 08, 2003).]

Here are the results of my test pass:

Outlaw 950, purchased 2/10/03
No amp hooked up
SVS 16-46 PCi connected to SUB
JVC XV-S60BK DVD player connected via coax digital
LOTR EE for source, used fireworks chapter

DTS-ES selected from DVD menu, started movie:
Rear speakers set to NONE: LFE signal present
Rear speakers set to LB/RB: LFE signal present (louder than NONE, some crossover?)
Rear speakers set to BS(LB): LFE signal present (same volume as LB/RB)

Switched to DD 5.1 EX:
LFE signal available

(Here's where the fun starts!)

Switched back to DTS-ES with rears set to LB/RB
No LFE signal present

I switched the rears from LB/RB to BS(LB), passing through NONE in the menu: LFE returned

In BS(LB), I returned to the DVD menu (DD), then back to the movie (DTS-ES): LFE absent

I switched the rears from BS(LB) to LB/RB, passing through NONE in the menu: LFE returned

In LB/RB, I returned to the DVD menu (DD), then back to the movie (DTS-ES): LFE absent

I switched the rears from LB/RB to BS(LB), without passing through NONE (arrowed the other direction): LFE absent

I switched the rears to NONE: LFE returned.

In NONE, I returned to the DVD menu (DD), then back to the movie (DTS-ES): LFE present

I switched to LB/RB, went to menu and back in order to lose LFE, then powered the unit off then on: LFE absent

Conclusion:

If you have rear speakers set to anything but NONE, and you switch from DTS-ES to DD (the LOTR menu is in DD), when you switch back to DTS-ES your LFE is gone. But wait, it gets better, and this may be important on the technical troubleshooting side! After you lose your LFE, if you change your rears to NONE, OR EVEN PASS THROUGH NONE ON THE SELECTION LIST, you get LFE back. If you switch from one speaker setting to another without passing through the NONE selection (depending on which direction you travel through the list), LFE does not return. There's something magic about NONE. Toggling through NONE on my way from LB/RB to BS(LB) failed once, but it may have been that I was moving too fast.

Turning the unit off then on again while the movie was playing did not bring the LFE signal back.

So, I think it's a problem switching from DD to DTS-ES with rear speakers enabled, and the state is not reset when the power (well, at least standby) is cycled.

The only reason my first DTS-ES pass worked was because I started the movie from the menu with the rears set to NONE.

Can anyone repro this? Prove me wrong? Find something I missed?

--Mike



[This message has been edited by Llamas (edited March 08, 2003).]

LLamsa: I definately give you credit for your extensive testing!

But...



Two questions:

1) OK, so I'm supposed to remember this every time I want to watch a DTS-ES movie on with the 950?

2) One thing that doesn't make sense, most menus of the DVDs I'm familiar with, are only in DD, so in effect, you *have* to switch from DD to DTS at some point? Right? I will have to try this, because when I tested for this the other night with the Stargate DTS-ES disc, I *specifically* tried DD first because I knew that should work. (Easier to prove a negative if you get a postive 1st.) I will also try this by *initially* setting up the DVD input with DTS too. Interesting.

And if Sanjay's out there... When I watched Stargate last weekend: popped the disc in, set DTS-ES from the disc's menu, and played it. So maybe I got the LFE in that case anyway. So maybe I don't have to re-watch it with CES DTS...


jgubman- I agree with every you said. Except that I would have gone for the Ref 50...

I'm starting to get a not so warm and fuzzy about Cirrus DSP. Think of all the other bugs we put up with. Have to be in a 5.1 mode before you switch to DVD or you only get the front 2 channels for the tone generator or the 6 ch input. And Pioneer replaced the Cirrus DACs that were in originally in the 47a with Burr Brown's for the 47ai because the 47a got such bad reviews for audio sound quality. (I never did view this company as robustly as Moto, or AD with their SHARCs.)

Since it's the weekend, we might have to wait until Mon for something from Outlaw.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited March 08, 2003).]

Mike,

I'm a little confused about what you were exactly testing from your post, but I think what you're seeing is that by selecting NONE as your rear effects speakers, you switch the SOUNDFIELD ON THE 950 from DTS-ES to DTS (the soundfield, NOT what signal the dvd-player is passing).

I think you'd get the same results if you just leave your rear effects speakers set to BS or LB/RB and push the DTS button on your remote (and cycle through the dts soundfields).

I *think* your conclusion supports the bug that we've all been reporting: with the 950's soundfield (DSP, whatever it's called on the outlaw) set to DTS-ES, there is no LFE output.

I've since put in just a regular old DTS title (not DTS-ES) and selected the DTS-ES soundfield on the 950 (speakers set to Large, rear speakers set to LB/RB and BS) and confirmed that there is NO LFE output.

I played the DTS demo (interior of a piano w/ the keys striking the piano wire), tons of LFE w/ the soundfield set to DTS, nothing w/ the soundfield set to DTS-ES.

I just tried cycling the power on the unit during the DTS introduction while in DTS-ES soundfield on the 950.

No LFE.

I'll have to try a straight DTS title. You may be right that even though the OSD says DTS-ES, it may play straight DTS when the rears are set to NONE, and perhaps by passing through NONE when I'm changing the rears, or when starting from NONE, the 950 stays in/goes into DTS (non-ES) mode and that's what gets the LFE back.

I'll go mess with this some more. I am pretty sure that the OSD was telling me DTS-ES throughout this whole thing, but that may not be telling the whole story.

Kevin, if there isn't more to the DTS vs DTS-ES stuff mentioned above, and the only issue is when transitioning from DD to DTS-ES, then yeah, it looks like every time you wanted to watch a DTS-ES movie, you'd have to start the movie, change your rears to NONE then back in order to get LFE.

--Mike


[This message has been edited by Llamas (edited March 08, 2003).]

jgubman wins a prize!

I had to get used to the toggling, since the first time you push the button it shows the input, and second and subsequent presses change the mode, but...

The magic of NONE is that it is changing into DTS. I was able to lose LFE by my above tested method, and get it back by switching to DTS manually. I also observed that if I went through NONE on my way from one rear type to another, when emerging from the menus I was in DTS. I could then switch the DTS-ES manually, and LFE would disappear again.

So, in the end, it's as simple as:

No LFE in DTS-ES

At least I know a little bit more about what's going on when I'm changing my speaker settings...

--Mike

Well, I just tried a few things. Powering up, switching immediately to DTS-ES mode before starting the DVD, I even tried changing from 7.1 to 5.1 and then back, either with DTS-ES mode engaged *before* I started the movie playing or even during. Nothing I did would give me LFE for DTS-ES. DTS yes, DTS-ES no.

If someone could replicated this, and give the exact instructions, I'd try it.


(Yeah, going from 7.1 speakers to 5.1 puts you in DTS mode, with LFE, but when you add the 2 rears back in, and switch back to DTS-ES, no LFE.)


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited March 08, 2003).]

I cannot duplicate this. I do not have this problem. You might not be waiting long enough for the 950 to switch to the selected surround mode-- it sometimes takes several seconds.
The only way I cannot get LFE output in DTS-ES is with the Surrounds set to Large. "Surround Rear" set to any configuration makes no difference-LFE is present. Right now, by my testing, if you want to run your mains (fronts) ans center as Large- it should work fine. If you run your surrounds as LARGE- no LFE in DTS-ES mode. By the way-- who sets their speakers in this config? Just wondering.

Is this the way you set all your speakers? Surrounds and rear surrounds as large?
Before you buy that Anthem, you might want to test it first

nohjy asked:
Yes

I do.
Where are the Outlaws, you ask? Out shoveling snow?

[This message has been edited by steves (edited March 08, 2003).]

SteveS, I have to disagree. How did you test to support your assertions? It was unclear in your previous posting as to the settings for your rears. (No rears defaults to DTS)

My initial testing was flawed because I did not notice that by setting, or toggling through, NONE for my rears, the 950 would change from DTS-ES to DTS.

If you set all of your speakers to large, and make sure that your soundfield is set to DTS-ES, and not DTS, (shown in the upper, right-hand corner of the LCD display) you will not get LFE. Well, I should say, several of us are not getting LFE.

The point is not that we run with our speakers set to large (we don't). The point is that there is EXTRA LFE information in the soundtrack (the .1 part) that is missing when playing back in DTS-ES mode. With our speakers set to small, our subs will play the crossed-over bass from our speakers, but the LFE encoded sound will be missing. It's a small percentage of the sound (only the explosion of the fireworks in the chapter I tested), but it is missing.

--Mike


[This message has been edited by Llamas (edited March 08, 2003).]

If you go back and read my posts, you will see that I agree with this statement . I am saying if you set your fronts and center to large, but your surrounds to small, you will have LFE.
Hmmmm, I have not seen where anybody has had a problem with speakers config'ed to small. In fact, the person who started this thread said:


Best wishes....
Steve

Steve, Are you sure that's the LFE channel coming from the sub and not the bass from surround channels that have been set to small?

If anyone has a DTS test DVD with an isolated .1 LFE track, you can check whether you're hearing discrete bass or derived bass at any given time.

Best,
Sanjay

Kevin, Maybe, maybe not. If any of your speakers are set to small and your subwoofer was active during the movie, then you may have heard the discrete LFE content. Or it may have been the derived bass from the other channels. At this point no one seems sure.

Besides, you know you want to watch that movie again; the witty dialogue and Oscar calibre acting is too tempting to resist. Are you sure that the problem lies in the Cirrus chip? I think my Lex processor uses the same Cirrus DSP but doesn't exhibit the same problem. Are there any other DSP chips in the 950?

Best,
Sanjay

I am having the same problem with my unit. I thought it was going nuts, but I am glad to know it is not just me. By the way I have the red dot unit. If that helps. I look forward to an update from the Outlaws.

Mike

You could be right. Unfortunately, I have no test DVD. You are right, the MC-12 does use the same Cirrus chip-- so it can't be all bad!
I'm watching it as I type Back to the movie!!

I started this topic Mar 3 in Favorite Demos
subject "Lord of the Rings" because the movie didn't sound right to me. I was excited about playback in dts-es discrete.
I noticed right away the sound lacked impact,
floor shaking bass I'm used to w/my system.
I checked my sub's, No Output- No LFE. Thought I might have a bad copy of "LOTR".
I proceded to listen to other dts material using the 6.1 mode- No LFE. I did get some sub output w/speakers set to small but not the kind of impact I expect from the LFE channel.
I think it's real simple, my 950 does not reproduce the .1 LFE channel while in the dts-es mode. Doesn't matter what the speaker
setting is. I can easily hear and feel the lack of LFE. If I set any speaker to small all I'm outputing to the sub is re-directed bass.
Kinda like ordering a Whopper and getting a junior.
So, Outlaw Audio, where's the Beef in dts6.1?
massi2u

Fellow Outlaws:

While it is our general policy not to intrude on the conversations in the Saloon, the comments in this thread clearly warrant a comment from us. To those of you who might wonder if the Outlaws read the messages in the Saloon, we trust that this will put that issue to rest once and for all.

Based on your comments, it appears that there may be an issue with regard to the playback of LFE data with the DTS-ES mode. First of all, thanks to our members of the Saloon for identifying this issue. Despite our rigorous internal and external testing, as well as the use of the Model 950 by an ever-growing community, this issue had not surfaced until now.

Before we tell you what we are doing about this, it is important to note that this reported issue does NOT impact any other mode or the overall sonic quality of the Model 950. All analog, Dolby Digital and standard DTS sources operate properly with the sonic quality you have come to expect from Outlaw.

As to the issue at hand, we have forwarded all of the information on the situation to our engineering and product teams in both Asia and the US. They are currently running a variety of tests to verify and quantify exactly what may be happening, and why. This testing involves both the hardware and software, although the nature of your reports suggests that the software is most likely involved. The testing includes both listening and a review of the various elements of the software code.

In a complex product such as the Model 950 this requires examination of multiple levels of software and their interaction. You may not know that there are three separate software sources in a product such as a surround processor: The individual surround algorithms such as DTS come from one source and they are then incorporated in the code provided by the microprocessor suppliers. In both of those cases we do not alter the code in any way, and use it as provided to us. On top of those two elements we create the operating code that glues everything together to run the unit.

The reason for explaining this is to let you know that the testing is a complex process requiring materials and installations outside the realm of a standard home theater system. We therefore ask that rather than continue to speculate on what is going on, you allow us to take the time needed to complete the in-depth testing. Anyone familiar with software knows that you need to look at things line-by-line to see what the impact of one section of the code is on another. We are doing just that, and while it would be inappropriate to put a guaranteed completion date on the process we are optimistic that we will have a solution within this week. Let’s just say that the issue has the complete and full-time attention of the design team.

Of course, your main question is “What does this mean to me?” As already stated, the first step is to define the parameters of the problem. You have started that and we are now picking up the ball. As soon as a root cause is identified to any problem, we’ll work as quickly as possible to find the fix and then test and validate it. The cause of the issue will, of course, determine what the appropriate corrective action might be.

In interim, we would like to remind you that for those using DTS with large speaker settings, the DTS+CS combination provides a very enjoyable presentation, as do the various Dolby modes. In addition, since this issue seems centered on the DTS-ES mode, it is not a factor when you are using the 950 in a DTS 5.1 configuration.

Most importantly, as those who have followed the forums over this past year know, customer support is at the heart of our business model, and we won’t let you down. If there is a problem we will find it, solve it, and provide a correction to anyone who encounters it. It’s as simple as that.

In summary, be assured that we are aware of your comments and are investigating the issue. As members of the Outlaw family, you know that we have corrected more serious issues in the past and if there is a problem along the lines of what is being discussed here, we will solve this as well.

Scotts reply is reason enough to Love this company. They go above and beyond and cater to their customers, and quickly at that.

I will wait to see what comes of this situation before I place my order for the 950. For now, I'll go enjoy my wonderous 200's

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Play it LoUd!!

Cool.

Maybe the S&V test disc has DTS-ES test stuff on it? I know it has DD EX... Avia is just DD/DTS.

With all due respect to scott's response, his "interim configuration" does not suffice. I bought this unit to be able to experience the latest formats and now I know that this is not possible. My favorite surround mix of all time is that of gladiator. I have watched that movie more times on my Denon 3802 than any other. Now that I have "upgraded" to the 950, I was hoping to be able to gain even better clarity and channel separation when listening to this wonderful movie. This latest information is really making me regret my purchase. I will be getting the last piece for my HT system this coming week in the form of high quality 5-channel amplifier (this will complete my 7.1 setup) and I now know that I will ne be able to get the full experience of my favorite movie!! I was hoping for better from the outlaws. They had that problem with the hiss/hum which took them months to fix. How long will this take? Am I going to have to send my 950 back for repair/upgrade only to wait weeks for its return? What is the next issue? Are we beta testers or end consumers? All of this should have been worked out in QC.

I am frustrated!!!!!

has anyone tried a firmware reset? I know you can do it. I just wonder if that would help.

Just a thought!

The S&V test disk does have a chapter for DTS-ES 6-1 speaker ID. I think I'm seeing what others are. With rear surround there is no LFE, with no rear surround you get LFE. Noticed that once you turn rear surround off it won't come back on until the chapter ends on the DVD. Once the chapter ends the initial flag is DTS then switches to DTS-ES with the rear surround operational but no LFE until you turn rear surround off.

Just another side note the S&V test disk allows you to test both DTS-ES discrete and DTS-ES matrix. Both function the same concerning rear surround on = no LFE

doesnt 5.1 DTS work with CES? Meaning your 5.1 turns into 7.1?

If losing the LFE only happens in discrete DTS-ES, i'd use the 7.1 CES. But then again, your not getting your $$'s worth...a reason why I will wait to see how and when this gets cleared up.

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Play it LoUd!!

I was debating whether to go with the Outlaw 950 or Rotel 1066 for a long time. I have now made my mind to go with the Rotel. With that ugly and cheap look of the 950, and a few bugs here and there my decision to go with the Rotel for extra money is probably a wise decision down the road. I don't think I will consider a product from Outlaw again for quite some time. Hope Rotel doesn't have the same problem b/c Rotel uses the same Cirrus DSP chip.

[This message has been edited by eskendir (edited March 09, 2003).]

Anyone experienced this same LFE problem with Rotel 1066? I think Rotel uses the same Cirrus DSP chip.

the rotel does not have this particular problem, but it does have it's own set of issues regarding bass management.

Did some testing of my own. Currently I do not have a full 7.1 setup. I'm running my 950/7100 combo as a 5.1 system. From reading the posts on this thread, the LFE issue is with the dts:es in Large speaker mode? Correct? I have my setup as small and changed my surrounds from "none" to lb/rb and did the LOTR Ch.1 with the big bass drop and LFE was very present. Same for the 6 channel setup. But was more present when selected as none. Wierd. Now I switched my speaker config to large all the way around and did the same tests and there was NO lfe present at all.

This doesn't bother me too much because I will never set my speakers up as large to begin with. I do see it as irritating though, paying a lot of money for a potentially faulty unit. From Scott's response above I'm confident this will be solved rapidly.

This is my first go around with Outlaw. Lets say they do determine there is something wrong and correct the problem, will current 950 owners be allowed to exchange our units for a fixed one at no additional costs? If so, cool with me and I will continue to enjoy my 950/7100 combo until a replacement is determined to be needed. Does circles around my old yamaha A/V!!!

Apparently the 'problem' is with DTS-ES - If some speakers are set to 'small' you still get no LFE, but some output is generated to the sub due to redirected bass, thus disguising the problem and making it hard to diagnose. Sub output and LFE are not synonymous. Scott or someone from Outlaw will announce what the engineers find as soon as the problem is well defined if past performance is any indicator.

Too bad the firmware isn't flashable - it would save somebody some money in the near future I bet.

Charlie:

I understand some of the bass from the sub is due to the speakers set to small, but my sub was shaking and booming like crazy. I can tell it sounded better than my old yamaha dts receiver. Big time. And I was impressed when watching LOTR with that unit last fall!

How do you run DTS-ES on a 5.1 system?

Exactly! I think some people may be confusing derived bass with discrete bass, just because something is coming out of their subs.

The reason I mentioned a DTS test disc earlier is because having access to an isolated .1 LFE track will allow users to determine if the LFE content is truly being discarded or possibly being re-directed to the 'large' mains (as happens when the SUB output is set up as 'none'). Remember that one of the conditions for the problem is that all speakers have to be set to 'large', which might have some unexpected effect on LFE routing.

Just because the LFE signal is not coming out of the SUB output doesn't neccessarily mean that it is discarded. I know it's unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

Best,
Sanjay

Good point on the routing - could be something more complex than simply discarded.

Actually, even with Avia, and some thought, this can be tested. I can't remember if Avia duplicates the same DD tests for DTS, but all you need is a main L (and/or R) signal then the sub. Then can try changing the surrounds from large to small and see if the sub signal changes. Just have to remember that even though the signals are only DTS, you have to put the 950 in DTS-ES mode. If I have a chance, I'll take a look at the Avia tests to see if there's anything we can use. Or, if anyone gets to try it first.

Yes, so if the Rotel doesn't have the problem, then is probably just a software on top of the processor problem.

I'd hate to be the engineer/programmer who screwed this one up...

Any guess on what color the dot will be on this particular fix, assuming it'll be a dot? Blue dot and red dot are taken...

Will:

Gee, do you think maybe it will be a polka-dot?

But what do I know, I'm only a dog?

(Then again, some of my doggie pals DO have spots -- if not dots!)

ARF ARF, says Iggy!

[This message has been edited by Iggy The Dog (edited March 10, 2003).]

someone on avs forum with a P2000 did the test with speakers set to large and turned off, and says he got lfe output in DTS-ES, although output in DTS seemed greater.

sort of interesting, if accurate. any p2000 owners here to confirm?

[This message has been edited by chris3g (edited March 10, 2003).]

Yep, but software will tend to have bugs. I'd REALLY like to see how the product manager that decided flashable firmware was an unneeded feature wriggles out of this one.

Charlie- I can understand bugs, ... took Sony 2 years and 3 software upgrades to get the TA-E9000ES "right"...

But this seems to me to be a pretty big one.

Oh wait, I said "software upgrades" ... Hee, hee.

Would be nice to get confirmation on the P2000. At least 2 people here thought they didn't have the problem, but when they tested correctly, they did have it.

Purple, I say "purple".

Testing correctly: what a concept.

I've been out of town for a couple months (in case anyone is missing me) and I still am so I can't verify it on my 950 but I assume its the same. I just wanted to get my vote in for White or Green dot. They should open up the contest section for this one.

A white dot would not show up against the white serial number label.......

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The Soundhound Theater

Excellent point Soundhound. I forgot it was on the label. So now I think it should be Green. In all seriousness, I feel for the Outlaws but one has to assume that this will be Outlaw's last non upgradeable processor. You live, you learn.

With the inherent sound quality that the 950 has, I would paid a bill or 2 more for software upgradeability. ($100 - $200.)

I like "green" too. Green means go: all systems GO.

Yet another reason for me to stick with 5.1.

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Philip Hamm

I have the 950 with all of my speakers set to small. I have them all calibrated to 75db. Using Lord of the Rings as my test disc and the bass drop in the first chapter, using a Radio Shack sound meter the DTS-ES bass setting is showing as approximately 6db lower than the DTS setting and the Dolby EX.

I have decided that I would be happy to return my outlaw to get the dts-es processing fixed. Hell, I'll even pay for it, if they would add at the same time additional functionality. Outlaw should turn this situation into a revenue generator instead of a cash-flow drain. They should create an upgrade program out of this morass.

John

At first I thought green would be a logical choice. Red, blue and then green would round out the three primary video colors. But I'm afraid novice users would confuse the green dot with the power button! (Hee Hee ) Do I hear any votes for magenta?

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Tekdredger

I had heard of this problem before concerning a DTS ES disc with all spekers set to large. Glad to report that no such problem exist with my 950, as I tried LOTR EE and others and experienced NO PROBLEM!

Everett- Here's the best way to test it:

1) Turn all of your speakers off.
2) Set all of your speakers as small in the 950. Sub on.
3) Find a bass intensive scene in your favorite DTS or DTS-ES disc. With either DTS or DTS-ES mode on the 950 selected, you should hear sound out of your sub. You might have to turn it up to hear it.
4) Now, change all of your speakers to large, sub on in the 950. Keep all of your speakers off.
5) Repeat #3. I bet you get LFE to the sub with DTS, but not DTS-ES.

You obviously have to be using the digital connection between your DVD player and the 950.

Kevin: Interesting development! I turn my 2 amps off(a 5ch and 2ch) set to large and put on LOTR EE and chose DTS ES. Played the first scene that has incredible bass content, but nothing coming out of sub. I then went to menu and change surround from large to none and bang . Bass and more bass! I then toggled back to large, expecting to lose the signal, but it remained perfect. I cant explain why it did not work in DTS ES initially, but it certainly worked perfect following the sequence I performed. There is something strange about it, and would not normally discover such abnormalities since I prefer to run small all around and Xover at 80! Thanks for the info!

Kevin: I need to amend my earlier statement; Yes, I heard bass with all set to large and yes, I was in DTS ES. What I didnt realize the 950 defaulted back to the standard DTS only setting not ES. In ES, no bass with all large setting, in DTS only, NO PROBLEM !

As Kevin said, a few posts above: bet you get LFE to the sub with DTS, but not DTS-ES

The devil is in the details of *how* you test for it...

Any word from the Outlaws on this yet?

In my system the front speakers are set to large and all the rest are set to small including the back surrounds. Is the bass I'm getting from my sub LFE, summed bass or a combination of the two?? Also, what is the speaker setting that is causing the LFE problem?? (In novice terms please)

Thanks, GMAN

Did Outlaw posted any official response to this problem anywhere?

Look back on pg2 of this threat, March 9 at 12:22 from Scott.

I think I got it. Went back and read all the posts. From what I've read my conclusion is:

1. Speaker settings have nothing to do with the problem.

2. Simply stated, the 950 does not output LFE information when in the DTS-ES mode.

Is that it????

Gman:

You got it!

John

Dear Outlaws:


We thank you for your help in identifying this issue for us. As the situation has been identified and solved, we are closing this thread, and we direct you to the “LFE ISSUE UPDATE” thread for the latest status report and your comments.


[This message has been edited by Scott (edited March 14, 2003).]