I have been following the 950 for a long time and am ready to upgrade to separates. I currently use an Onkyo TX-DS898 receiver with 110 watts for each of the 7 channels. It has been a great fill in piece but I am ready to move more into the high end. My question is this - is the 950 truly a high end piece or are there too many corners cut to achieve the price point? It seems that the 950 competes well with other pre/pros up to the $1500 - $1600 price point but then loses out above that (as it should - it only costs $899). I am concerned about not moving that much forward beyond the capabilities of a good a/v receiver. I have already ordered the Anthem PVA7 amplifier (105 watts per 7 channels) and will use the Onkyo as a pre/pro to defray the costs somewhat. I am seriously considering the Rotel RSP-1066, Adcom GTP-860, and on the high end the Anthem AVM20 (the dealer would have to give me a really good discount). Any advice about the 950 in relation to these other pieces would be appreciated.

If you have not read the reviews on the 950, you should. They are probably the best way to get an impartial opinion. There are two on the Outlaw web site. I was converted to a believer with their first five channel amp and have had good experiences with their cables and ICBM.

Good luck finding anything near their price for the quality and service they offer.

I think it really boils down to features, cosmetics and flexibility, and how much you're willing to pay for them. In terms of sound quality, you're probably right in your assessment.

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The Soundhound Theater

I would agree with the consensus so far:

The sound quality itself is of audiophile (or high end) quality, but there are some rough edges. Heck, even the Perfect Vision gave it a really good review! And they are the most critical publication I know of (other than Stereophile, which hasn't reviewed it yet).

i've compared it to the adcom at about $1695, the parasound at $2500, and another one that retails at $4500 (at a friends house). the latter does beat out the outlaw. sound quality is amazing for all formats and the menu 'setups' are endless. i, personnally, feel that outlaw picked the best options for system setups...leaving out ones i really don't need. i use a hi-end pre-amp (tube) now for turntable. i do like the 'sound' of the 950 and the flexibilty. Hi-end? that's become a very worn term. i bought the 950 only a month ago and am 'lovin' every minute of it'.
p.s. the guy with the $4500 unit came over to listen...he liked it a lot.

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t higg

I would say it's an okay pre-amp for the money. Whether something like a Denon 3803 receiver used only as a pre-amp would be better or not, I don't really know, but it may be something to consider looking into.

While I do like the 950 overall (since it has no internal amps to worry about possible interference or heat), as Kevin pointed out it does have some rough edges to it with its user interface. It also loses a few automated conveniences you might find on a good mid-line receiver.

The buttons on the face plate could have been more refined in terms of a "cheapness-factor" that prevails with those used. On the flip side, the backend has very good quality gold plated jacks everywhere and a detachable IEC power cord (you could upgrade to a shielded boutique brand of IEC compliant cord if you wanted to). Most receivers don't have gold plated connectors or detachable power cords.

I also have a problem with their bass management design for the 5.1 analog inputs. When you turn the 5.1 input toggle switch to OFF, it is not a pure bypass to the volume control as it should have been. Unless you want to potentially foul up your DVD-Audio or SACD system calibration you have to leave the fixed 80 Hz cut off ON (and not use any internal bass management or time delay in the player itself).

Dan

There are ways around the double bass problem - some pretty good, others sort of convoluted, but I agree that it's kind of silly to have the problem in the first place. Tells me the design team didn't really think the feature list through to it's logical conclusion, or didn't care.

THIS IS MY OPININION ONLY!!!!I did have a Top of the line "bells and whistles" Yamaha 5 channel reciever before I purchased the 950/770 combo. I have a friend who has a Mcintosh amp and pre-amp and a friend who has the exact same amp and pre-amp I just purchased a short week and a half ago ( The Outlaw).
Now although I always was rather partial to the big blue meters on the Mac, the system did not seem very versitale to my kind of system, and my kind of room (27by 15).His room was square 15 by 15. It cost him 4800.00 just for the combo. I'm don't think price should really be the factor in high end or middle of the road.You will have the oppurtunity to audition the OUTLAW in your own home for 30 days.
Hands down my listening space is way better than both of my buds.I must have at LEAST 200 music DVD's and over 1000 CD's which impress me with every playing. MY OPINION ONLY!!!! I will say this , I do drive the best Motorcycle in the world anyway.

What a relief. For a minute I thought you rode a Harley instead. [GD & R]

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I will say this , I do drive the best Motorcycle in the world anyway.
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Harleyman, I was with you on your 950 opinion until you made the above statement. You can still edit your post you know.

Cary

2002 BMW GS1150 Adventure...
(the best motorcycle in the world!)

I am concerned about not moving that much forward beyond the capabilities of a good a/v receiver.
Personally I think it does move quite a bit forward from the Super stores AV receivers I’ve heard, including the entire Marantz line I listened to at a boutique, and most definitely the super receivers (Pioneer/HK/Sony) I’ve heard. Some argue these kinds of generalities are not valid statements, When these opinions are formed without an A/B comparison at home. But there is that commonsense part of me which continues to feel, to a certain extent my ear knows what it likes without bringing it home (or thinks sounds better) or none of us would ever be capable of hearing a competing set of speakers while in a store, and lusting after their sound to the extent of beginning planning our old speakers replacements. .…..before we in-home demo the product. But I haven’t heard a thing that made me waffle on replacing the 950/770. Having an in=-house match myself with the 950 combo with the Outlaw amp, I don’t know if the synergy of the Outlaw separates is better than a 950 paired with other power choices, yet this is my comparison base. I like the 770 over several amps I’ve heard also. I could not tell you whether it affected my high, low or middle end, only that there was a leap in music detail and clarity detected, - over the 3 different amps I heard running the speakers I ultimately purchased.
Several models you mention, I have yet to hear personally but after researching for month’s consumer’s posts about home demo’s and their opinions, factoring tradeoffs of certain features between the unit’s etc. Still feel way ahead on my Outlaw purchase.

I do have a ‘curious’ mind, would rather always hear/see for myself, but on many of these products I have had to base my conclusions on others written words. Thoughtfully considered by me over much time and weighted by many factors. But when the opportunity arose to get a good deal on a second Outlaw system I went that route rather than availing myself of numerous other options. It says a lot that nothing I have heard out and about had stirred me enough to try one of these other options just for the sake of sheer variety (novelty) of owing a different branded second system.

I am capable of ‘yanking’ an unsatisfactory purchase out of my system. I’ve recently returned one DVD player and one HD STB. (and replaced a brand new 7.1 set of speakers once I desired ‘more’ out of my speakers than I currently was getting) After living with Outlaw products and their CS, (longer than the speakers I replaced) I felt confident with my decision to purchase a second round from Outlaw; I’d have to rate my satisfaction as extremely high.

Being fair to Outlaw, I feel they were the only company to put ‘thought’ into the current doublebass quandary as regards DVD-A and SACD. At the time they choose the default setup which would offer the best solution to most average systems in use. They have the only work around, for those who desire dealing with it. They noted the need for the ICBM and reacted when all players had no bass control options. I think Outlaw has proved (on the whole as a company) they are rather more ‘thoughtful’ about bass management than not. And from what I’ve learned about Outlaw in the past year, they will acknowledge and address any issues (like these currently) bending to customer feedback, where and when economically it can be feasibly applied to hit a price point target in their next product.

My bottom line, I don’t think Outlaw can be beat (sound wise). Feature wise (we all have different priorities and preferences what I might accept another might not). By any mid-grade to super receiver on the market. And it comes close enough to that other sky rocket escalation in separates of diminishing returns, to keep me a very happy listener for the conceivable future.

Since Outlaw makes an in-home 30 day demo as uncomplicated and easy on the consumer (to the doorstep) as is feasibly possible. Since this kind of (your ears) demo is not even possible with many choices on the market. With Outlaw NO ONE , has to rely mine (or anyone else’s ) debate abilities.
(just me and my shadow )

But....but....LENA!....


The topic is MOTORCYCLES!!


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited March 02, 2003).]

Duplicate....

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited March 01, 2003).]

Ok its all good. I won't talk about motorbikes anymore. I'm concentrating on the fabulous Billie Holiday coming from my OUTSTANTING Outlaw 950/770 combo at the moment.

Hi, Thought I'd chime in 'cause I had your exact same receiver before I upgraded to the Outlaw 950/770 combo. No regrets at all. Very notible improvement in sound, features, function et al. The only downside is that I then had to upgrade my speakers to hear what my old speakers (Cambridge Soundworks all round) were hiding. Got the Rockets and now the sound is truely outstanding.

Now trying to decide whether to keep the CS Subwoofer (SB1000) or move to the SVS or the soon-to-be-announced Rocket Sub. So be careful, upgrading sound can be adicting (and rewarding).

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--Peter

Dear SLL:

Please share with us your current Speaker configuration...

I seem to remember that you had upgraded to Vienna Acoustics 'Beethoven's for mains and you were considering VA 'Bach's for the surrounds... Is that right?... or has your desire moved you seek another?

I have admired the presentation of the VA Beethoven's at a friends home. Subsequently I have replaced the tweeters of an old pair of B&W 'DM3000' (circa 1985) with the same VA silk dome drivers to bring them into the 21st century. A Wonderful transfiguration.

While I have B&W N803 mains and B&W CDM NT center and surrounds, featuring a metal dome tweeter design;
those old DM 3000's are now alive again with the silk VA tweeters. They are used in a stereo only configuration powered by an old McIntosh Amp with capacitors almost the size of Fosters (the beer) depth charges.

Thank you.


[This message has been edited by AGAssarsson (edited March 02, 2003).]

Please share with us your current Speaker configuration AGAssarsson, sorry first saw this too late just last night to reply. Right now I still have the VA’s for FL/FR Cent. But am cont. to run the Defn Tech Pro Cinema 100’s for surrounds.
I fully intend to ‘lay’ a Beethoven on its side to demo it for use as a center, (very weird idea I came up with and posted about recently) and to decide, if I can fit, one of the smaller VA lines (like the Bach) in for the surround placements. I’ve way overspent in the last 12, so this may wait a while. Also I have side issues that keep me from getting to my own AV constantly, which needs attention. Spent this weekend shopping with my mom, for her new HD display to be delivered Tues (which I’ll be setting up). Last night she and my sister were rolling on the floor laughing, after my sister and I finished assembling the new display base, , - when I stated I need to check your DVD VHS & Sat. to make a shopping list for some decent cables to replace the aging ‘came in the box’ assort. I picked up her Sat receiver glanced at the back, and declared seriously, “Well, there’s not much I can do for this one”. (Connectivity options were composite and coax in from dish …period). They don’t understand it, but they thought my delivery was very funny.
PS, I think the tweeters installed in the VA's were half the attraction of that purchase for me. I've decided right now my ears don't like metal dome or even the metal 'thero cooled ?) etc hybrids. The silk domes VA uses, are smooth and beatifully articulte whilst NEVER hitting even a barely edged shrillness. (my kind of tweeter!). That was a great choice (IMO) to upgrade the domes in your speakers!
Now back to the 'real' topic..."MOTORCYCLES!!" ummm,...they look really cool?!!

[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited March 03, 2003).]

Thanks for all the good honest responses. I believe that the 950 represents a fantastic value in the pre/pro category but have come to the conclusion that I am looking for more. There are a lot of convenience features and usability issues that the 950 seems to have omitted to achieve the price point. The next pre/pro that Outlaw manufactures will probably be what I want but I can't wait that long. The pre/pro category is really frustrating right now as there is a void in the $1500-$3000 price range. The Rotel 1066 and Outlaw 950 really have things covered up to the $1500 range and the Anthem AVM20 and B&K Ref 50 take over at $3000. The $1800 to $2400 range is almost completely devoid of current, up to date products. I know that Adcom's GTP-880 is coming at $2000 but nobody know much about it or when it will be ready. I have also not heard a lot of good things about Adcom. I am currently leaning towards the Anthem pre/pro but spending that kind of money on an audio piece is tough. If anyone from Outlaw reads this, please build a $3000-$3500 quality pre/pro and offer it for $1800-$2400. You will stun the industry and corner the pre/pro market.

My gut feeling is that you're probably right on. The 950 has 80% of the functionality any reasonable person would require, but it has some shortcomings that fall into (as I see it) three broad categories:

- Cosmetic issues [color, finish, cheap feel to some controls,...]
- User interface or usablity issues [remote from mars, lack of discrete codes, ]
- Feature issues [Double bass, no re-labelable inputs, no local trims,....]

None of the above really seriously affect the actual performance of the unit as a HT controller, but taken together it is clear that this is not a $3000-3500 unit in a $900 package. Rather, it takes advantage of the 80/20 rule to deliver a good unit at a greatly reduced cost. This is a great accomplishment and Outlaw Audio should be commended, but there is, as was noted, room to fill above the 950.

I suspect there are a lot of folks who would pay double or maybe triple to get that last 20%. Anyone care to confirm or deny this last part? $1800 - $2700 seems like a good zone to me....

[80/20 rule: The last 20% takes 80% of the effort.]

If you look a round just a little, you can find the B&K Ref 50 for $2250-ish...

[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited March 07, 2003).]

i personally hate these 'one box does everything' pre/pros.

i can't imagine playing some stupid game on my rptv. my coat hanger gets 10 stations. i don't use the pre/pro for video switching and i was over the stereo cd format years ago.

i'd rather have a top notch uni player with excellent dacs, decoders and video playback that has balanced analog outs to a 7.2 analog preamp/master crossover and lfe crossover with balanced outs to active speakers.

all multi-channel formats...with or without picture. 1 remote for the player and monitor.

46 position pots on the preamps, individual 6 inch increment delay control, selectable, fixed point HP/LP corner freqs, 360 degree phase control and selectable filter slopes with color-coded I/O...ANALOG.

player: $1000
preamp: $1500
tuner: none
speaker cables: none
learning curve: 15 minutes
sound: excellent

...and DEFINITELY no remote/cell phone/e-mail/lighting/thermostat controller with a 95 page manual.

As long as you're dreaming why not a all digital signal chain, right out to the active speakers?

I was leaning that way myself except for two things. A lack of titles for the newer formats (though it is improving). The discovery of upsampling with my new Philips SVD-963sa. If you haven't tried an upsampling DAC or player you should really give one a listen, you may be surprised, I was.

Like Meridian, if you have the bucks.

You beat me to it, Morphsci, I was gonna say-- if you have a few extra bucks, Meridian will fix you right up charlie! I figure Outlaw ought to be able to deliver us something along the same lines for -- say-- $1995??

What I actually had in mind was an open standard, not an end to end solution. Thanks anyway

Yeah, I know-- I wish more manufacturers would dream along the same lines as you.

Me too, but someone has to start the ball rolling, although at the present time it doesn't appear to be rolling very fast (or even in the right direction).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by charlie:
As long as you're dreaming why not a all digital signal chain, right out to the active speakers?[/QUOTE

because i object to the digital processing of the signals before d/a conversion.

all that's required to process digital multi-channel formats after decoding is preamplification for unity gain to any amplifier, high and low pass filters, slopes, phase control and delay. d to a conversion has to happen eventually in any case. i prefer the conversion first and the processing to be
done in analog.

digital processing, as it exists, is based on a flawed system, is in it's infancy and doesn't impress me.

analog filters, delay, preamplification and routing on the other hand, are easy to precisely design and predict in conjunction with active speakers.

Amen. 24/192 PCM and DSD get you closer to analog, but analog is still the goal.

I can contain my excitement no longer. The 950 is a dream come true!!! Combined with my Outlaw 750 and Vienna speakers, the Outlaw 950 has transformed my almost there system to there and beyond!!!! Movies have come alive like never before. Who needs SACD?? With the 950 at the helm, even my plain old standard cd's sound magnificent. My 950 replaces a B&K 4090AVP which was an excellent processor for me, but for less than half the money, I'm getting it all!!! I've got 4 more days until the end of my 30 day trial and here is what I've got to say.... The only way anyone can separate me from my 950 is by force, and you'd better bring a big army cause I'll put up a fight!!!
GREAT JOB OUTLAWS!!!!!

We'll just have to agree to disagree (again) on that one I suspect. I'd submit that it's probably almost all been processed by the time we see it anyway.

Once you're digitized I'd rather do everything in discrete math and go back to analog at the last possible moment. The processing to do digital time delays is truly trivial, and that which is required to do other common transforms is well understood. Not to say it can't be done badly (analog or digital) but it's no mystery either.

The only time I could see benefit to analog processing is a fully analog signal chain, which is not practical for almost everyone.

don't get me wrong, i agree with you, charlie. it's just that i can design and build the analog version. not so in digital. there are just a few dsp chipset makers. they aren't likely to listen to me. not without the clout of major pre-pro manufacturers who agree or the promise of mega-thousand piece purchases.

also, digital amps are just appearing now. it's a dream, like you said. it will come, but not for years.

sp/dif has to go.
the pre-pro has to be completely redesigned.
bass management has to be corrected to suit all multi formats.
the output config has to be redesigned.
digital amps have to be readily available in high quality and various configs.
speakers have to be redesigned.
dvd-a/sacd players have to have digital out.
not likely to happen anytime soon.

in analog...no dream...can be done as we speak. not ideal, but much better than what we have now.

or...maybe we should start a company and get on with the all-digital signal path. each of us take a part and design it.

very glad to hear a happy audio/video story! just do yourself a favor and put dvd-a/sacd on your to-do-next list. great post, GMAN

Just to add my 2 cents on digital vs analog processing.....

I use digital processing daily in my work, performing digital EQ, mixing, reverb, compression, you name it, and I don't think it's accurate to say that it somehow is not fully ready for prime time or "flawed". I have to honestly admit that even when doing bit reductions of music masters all the way down to CD standard 16/44.1k, I cannot hear any difference or degredation in the sound. This is done on the same system, same gain, same everything except for the processing. I depend on my ears and abilities to pick out digital artifacts and any degredation in sound - that's how I make my living. I hear "digital done badly" all the time, and I know what it sounds like. Doing it right, I haven't heard anything to make me believe that the current digital signal chain is anything but transparent if it is done correctly.

That said, I also agree with bosso that digital processing should not take place unless absolutely necessary. In any digital operation, the signal is altered and subject to degredation. Believe it or not, this is also true (actually very true) of that most basic function of a preamp: digital volume control. Any reduction of volume done in the digital domain is going to reduce the resolution from it's original bit depth. Reduce the volume 24db (typical volume in normal listening) and you've knocked off 4 bits of resolution in your SACD or DVD-A recording. The same holds true of any other function like EQ done in the digital domain. Doing some of these functions in the analog domain, if the circuit is designed well, will not compromise the digital word one bit.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that I think that digital should be used as a "capture medium" at the highest bit and sample rate possible and practical. Any post-processing of the masters should be done in the digital domain CAREFULLY, before the master is committed to disc. After it leaves the digital to analog converters in the consumer's player, I believe it should be analog all the way to the speaker.

If at some point in the future someone should come up with a truly digital speaker technology (I'm not talking about a conventional speaker with the DACS and amps internal to the speaker cabinet), it would make sense to keep things digital all the way. I don't see the present "state of the art" in speakers fundamentally changing for quite a while, however. Until that time, they need to be driven by an analog signal, and that is best supplied with an analog pre and power amplifier.

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The Soundhound Theater

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited March 11, 2003).]

Trying to decide 950/7100 or denon 3803, marantz 9200(9300 soon)- cant wait for 4803. 1.What's the wife operating factor to switch between tv, audio (fm,cd dvd-a) on the 950? 2. should i wait until the 6.1 dts-es lfe issue solved? 3. best after-market remote for 950 and family?

Well...

1) With a little planning and perhaps a macro or two (I have a macro to turn on TV, digital cable, and 950 and another to turn them all off), I've had great success with my wife using the 950.

2) It might be worthwhile to give Outlaw another week or so to pick at it and see what they come up with.

3) Some of us are actually fairly happy with the SL-9000 clone that comes with the 950. If you don't like it, the MX-500 is the current favorite replacement. The Pronto is always good if budget allows and you like touch screen remotes (I have found that I prefer a remote that primarily uses hard buttons, but it is very much a matter of personal preference), but the cheaper Pronto NEO seems to have more than its share of problems, both with the 950 and in general.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

This is of course very true, but isn't it also true that those 'lost bits' are (on gear like the 950) hopelessly buried more than 40 db below the noise floor? In a case like that I doubt I'd notice....

It was my understanding that, for instance, the 950 analog sections exhibit noise approximately equivalent to 15-17 bits of resolution, or 90-102 db S/N ratio? I'm not too worried about losing some resolution as the LSB drops to the -140 db zone. Should I be?

Charlie:

All very true. I was just making a point with the SACD / DVD-A - but if you happen to be playing a 16 bit CD and use the same volume control setting (likely), you end up with a (bada-bing) 12 bit recoding.

It's also true that some "digital" volume controls are really "digitally controlled ladder attenuators". In these, the various resistors in the attenuator are switched digitally. This is technically an analog volume control.

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The Soundhound Theater

Right, but in the case with a CD data stream I'd be really disappointed if the processor actually switched to using 16 bit words internally for 16 bit audio. So in that case, I'd expect to see 8 zero bits (48 db) get discarded before actually losing ANYTHING on a 24 bit DSP.

Oh - I see. Well then that's TWICE we've agreed. Spooky eh?

Charlie:

I think it''s probably a moot point in the case of the 950. I would make an educated guess that the volume duties are performed by a digitally controlled analog attenuator, since the volume of the 5.1 bypass inputs can be controlled. I wouldn't imagine that they would run the bypass inputs through an AD/DA cycle just to adjust the volume.

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The Soundhound Theater

Probably true, and the more complex operations could suffer from some rounding error - bound to happen in a discrete math sort of environment. But a good implementor with adequate hardware should be able to make it pretty transparent on a 24+ bit DSP with any reasonable amount of care.

Take that with a grain of salt as music processing code isn't on my resume, but I'm not totally ignorant either. I've done some signal processing code, just not for music signals. It's all bits at some point.

I'd rather see well implemented digital filters on an already digital datastream than wait and do it in the analog realm, if possible. For one thing constructing two identical digital filters is trivial....

thanks gonk. macros can make waf work, but still wonder if denon or marantz would be a better choice than this capable but simpler option.

Hi surf1. I don't believe you'll find the 950 remote any more difficult to operate than the remotes included with either of the receivers you mention. I would recommend the MX500 as a good choice for an aftermarket universal remote that your wife should be able to easily use to control all your equipment. The 950/7100 combination offers a chance to get into separates for the price of a receiver. Unheard of! Go for it. Best wishes...

Have a fairly high end rig. Did my research on pre/pro's and almost went with Adcom. Adcom moved their front office to Arizona I think and the mfrg. to China. Adcom pre/pro's have had reliability issues. Based on reviews, price and availability went with the 950. I do not use it as my main 2C preamp but use it's front C outs to my ML380S which has a zero gain pass thru option for any input. Setup and programming is a little fussy and I have had some problems getting the MX500 remote to consistently operate the 950. Biggest surprise is listening to the tuner section in 5/6 channel stereo mode. Way cool. Also, tuner section pulls in stations that my old Adcom tuner could not. The 950 has no peer at it's price point.

Hi Everyone,

I got a set of 5 Sonus Faber speakers (Grand Piano,center, concertinos for rears)
plus a REL Storm 3 sub.

Does anyone have these speakers and have auditioned it with 950/770?

I am torn as well between B&K AVR507 Ref50/7.200, Anthem combo, and this almost too good to be true Outlaw combo.

The Sonus speakers are 6 ohm and I auditioned them at the store with B&K AVR507 (awesome), Marantz SR-9200 (good) and Rotel RSP1066 (wheres the beef).

Will this Outlaw impress me like the B&K and Marantz sonic performance and deliver the rich smooth sound i'm looking for?

Thx.

Steve

In fact, I raised this issue many months ago not only because of the volume issue but also because you can alter treble/bass on the two-channel bypasses. At the time and Outlaw rep assured me via this board that those bypass circuit were altered ONLY by analog circuits and there was no A/D/A action going on.

this almost too good to be true Outlaw combo.. Rare, but it is out there, and when I don’t dig up things like Outlaw, I bitterly regret it later. I can spend………but I hate being…..taken or to a lessor degree, just spending more than needful to attain equal results. I feel like a recording but I’ll mention here again, >>>>> I just spent some time listening to your SF Grand Piano’s (very nice) , with a B&K setup (sorry don’t remember specific model but it most likely was very current) and the Flagship Pioneer. I also listened at the time to MLogans and VA’s powered by same.

I happened to purchase the Vienna’s (Beethoven’s and Maestro), after bringing them home, the Outlaw 950/770 combo bettered by a large margin, the other amp/pre receiver, running them at the demo. It was as if I purchased at least a third better speaker than what I heard at the demo, when I brought them home and mated with the Outlaw.

The demo room was almost the exact size of my listening area, (small) and well treated for acoustics. I don’t think the sound difference could have been accounted for by poor acoustics at demo.

I recommend your own demo to decide. Although I did not hear the SF’s with my 950/770 combo. The increase I found in performance with the VA’s over the demo setups might be indicative of a similar result as a possible result if you pair your SF’s with the Outlaw. Substance and quality can be found if your willing to pay…in anything……it can also be found if your willing to research behind the badge.

Happy Hunting!