I just ordered a 950 for evaluation. I am currently using a Sony STR-DA5ES and a Parasound HCA-855A 85Wx5 amplifier, driving a set of Swan Divas (4.1/C3/2.1) and an SVS PCi 16-46, in my 5.1 system. I am looking for suggestions on how to effectively compare the two.

For instance, what are some scenes on various DVDs to compare? What should I be listening for?

This sounds a little silly. If I can't tell something is better unless I'm specifically isolating out certain details, what's the point? Well, I also want to avoid the slight doubt that goes along with a decision when I do feel that one is better than the other, but can't put my finger on the reason.

Thanks,

--Mike

I have a 950 mated to a HCA 855a also. The biggest thing to remember is that it will probably be very bright to begin with. I never believed in break-in periods for audio equipment, but now I do! I had a 950 that sounded somewhat bright when I first got it. I leave my equipment on all the time, and after a few days the sound became more and more pleasant. It was "detailed" to begin with, but then the sound got even a little better. The little bit of harshness I had went away.

A month ago I got my replacement "blue dot". I hooked it up and "Oh My God does this sound bright!!!" I kept my original for a few days to compare it with the new one. Within 72 hours the brightness was gone on the new one, and it sounded better than the original.

All I am saying is that the first few days may not impress you a lot. I can honestly say that with the 1st unit I thought I was getting used to the sound when it began to sound better. After swapping out a replacement a month ago and hearing how it sounded at first compared to my 4 month old model, I am convinced that there IS a burn-in that occurs.

Well, as fate would have it, my Sony needs to go in for service (issues with the video switching). The prospect of spending some time without my HT audio system is what pushed me to finally try the 950. So, I'll have a week with the 950 before I run the comparison. This will give me time to calibrate it properly, and ensure an accurate comparison.

My initial impulse was to just get the 950 and sell of the 5ES when it gets back from the shop, but once my enthusiasm cooled, I decided to compare first.

What I didn't mention in my initial post is this is an HT setup--pretty much no music listening--so that's why I'm looking to compare scenes in movies rather than music.

Thanks,

--Mike

I suggest comparing movie sound scenes with the video turned off. Otherwise the information passing to your eyes may overwhelm the information passing to your ears.

Good luck!

Will

I just got a 950/755. Replaced a Sony TA-E900ES/HCA-855A.

The diffirence (even w/o breakin) is substantial. Much wider soundstage front and back. A clear sense of weight and ease and not bright. I tried the 950 with the 855A first, much brigther and constrained. The Parasound seems to choke in comparison. Early to say but the 950 in bypass w/ the 755 is quite musical.

Front 3 are VMPS QSO 626 , Hsu VTF-1, Rears Gallo balls.

I had a TA-E9000ES before the 950. I'm not one to believe in large differences between electronic components. To me, a $500 receiver will probably sound comparable to a $3000 pre/pro. I'd rather put my money into better speakers, or more CDs & DVDs.

With that being said, I did feel that I got a little bit more "openness" and "air" with the 950 vs the Sony. But the Sony is 4 year old technology too. I liked the sound of the Sony, and I like the sound of the Outlaw...

IMHO i just don't believe that a $500 receiver will sound the same as a $3000 pre/pro. it can't happen. you are dealing with much more robust power suppies, much higher grade capacitors, more advanced chips, etc...

the KEY is great amplification and you can't dump $5k into a set of speakers and run them with a $500 receiver because those speakers will reveal the true level of mediocrity that receiver occupies.

on that same point a 950 with a very high-end 5 channel amp, like a cary (properly matched), can sound about as good as a $3000 pre/pro, such as the anthem.

While I agree that it is going to be pretty hard or impossible to find a garden variety $500.00 receiver that matches a high end component, the reality is that it is the skill of the designer that has a much higher influence on sound quality, not the parts. If that proverbial $500.00 receiver is properly designed and run withing it's capabilities, with a relatively easy speaker load, there is no inherent barrier to it sounding as good, or maybe even better than a high end component. I've owned some really high end equipment whose design was botched beyond belief by a designer that didn't have the necessary skill. Really obvious stuff like circuit board traces that induced ground loops, etc. The devil is in the details.



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The Soundhound Theater

I'm in the middle of doing some comparisons, and I'm not seeing noticable differences. I need more time, and perhaps some shorter scenes to compare, but so far... Hell, I want the 950 to sound better! I didn't order it for the joy of tearing my equipment rack apart.



What about an $899 pre/pro sounding the same as a $3000 pre/pro?

In any case, I'm using external amplification, so the comparison is versus the receiver's pre/pro section, not its ability to drive the speakers. Well, that and it's a $1200 ($800 street) receiver, not a $500 one. I know you were referring to Kevin's remark, and not my comparison, but I wanted to keep my evaluation in context.

--Mike


[This message has been edited by Llamas (edited February 22, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Llamas (edited February 22, 2003).]

I agree, that's why I have the 950 and not the B&K Ref 50 (at about $2250 street).

You obviously do get more features and "tweakability" at the higher price (THX Ultra2 for one), but in terms of raw sound quality, like I said, I don't think there are big differences.

I partook in a listening test between a red dot (equiv) 950 and the Anthem. I couldn't hear any difference at all. (Might have been limited by the speakers in that particular case, but the data point "stuck" with me.)

Well I am no longer the proud owner of a 950. I wanted to be, but it didn't work out.

I had an original 950, then a blue dot, then another blue dot. Finally return the final blue dot.

I liked my first unit, but the hiss was way too loud in my system. Scott agreed to let me keep it until they had a real hiss fix. Got the blue dot and the hiss was fixed, but the muting circuitry was the downfall for me. I seemed to one of the few people who heard a click/pop every time the digital input turned off for more than moment. This annoyed me (and my wife) enough to where I decided $900 was too much for a product that annoyed me.

I went and bought an inexpensive reciever (actually turned out to be the least expensive receiver I could find with all pre-outs). I then compared the 2 for just DVD's. Going back and forth, I think the 950 sounded a little better, but I couldn't really say for sure or why/how. What I could tell was that the receiver had no annoying click, locked on to the digital bitstream much faster (no missing the first couple seconds at the beginning of the THX intro), and for me, better user interface. Plus for being less than half the price of the 950 at a local brick and mortar, I sent the 950 back.

I still wished I could have kept the 950, but it didn't work out for me. I also have modest needs - DVD and TV. I use a used high-end DAC and a used high-end 2 channel preamp for CD's, so music is taken care of. I actually bought the 2 channel preamp when the hiss issue first came up with the 950. I already had the DAC. For others who use their 950 as their CD DAC, I can see how the 950 should improve upon my lowly receiver. But for decoding the already compressed DD/DTS signals, I figure my receiver is more than adequate.

So I guess I have to mostly agree with Kevin Brown with the $500 receiver and the $3k pre/pro. That assumes outboard amplification for both and using it to decode DD/DTS. As an analog preamp, I would disagree.

AJ- I assume that both blue dots had the click? That's wierd. Must just be an interaction with your system.

Well, most $500 receivers that have 5.1 analog "pass through" don't do "bass doubling" either...

Hi,

My first post here, but thought I'd add my opinion to the fray...

I had an Onkyo 838 receiver driving higher-end Cambridge Soundworks speakers (towers, center stage, S300 surround S1000 sub), with a low-end Sony DVD/CD carosel player. Thought it sounded pretty good. Wanted to move up to SACD/DVD-audio, improve the sound to get ready for a new TV (DLP or LCD rear projection probably).

Upgraded the receiver first to the 950/770 set, and the DVD player to the Onkyo SP800. Didn't try A/B testing on the receiver, but the improvement was obvious to everyone who auditioned it - sound was cleaner, less distortion, livelier, more accurate, etc. Nice soundstage, good depth. Music and movies both sounded better. Did do A/B testing on the DVD player as I have the Sony still hooked up as a sound source for my second room. Noticeable improvement even on CDs. The Outlaws have so much clean power that I can't get near max volume, and I have a "great room" (living, kitchen, dining in one room) that I need to fill with sound. And I like it loud.

So far, so good. But then I started thinking that the speakers were now the weak link, and wondering how much the outlaws were being limited by the speakers. Did some research. Decided to try out the Onix Rocket home theater #2 (750 mains, 200 center, 300 surrounds). Kept the subwoofer. Have just had them for a few days. Did A/B testing, with friends doing blind A/B testing. Very noticeable improvements again. Midrange about the same I'd say, but bass much tighter, I invented the term "less baggy". Treble is also much cleaner, clearer, dynamic.

So in my experience, yes, upgrading from a receiver to separates, at least with a distance in price, is well worth doing and can add quite an improvement in sound.

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--Peter

[This message has been edited by outlwrocketman (edited February 24, 2003).]

I spent more time comparing the DA5ES and 950, this weekend.

The difference that I can hear is in the bass. The 950 has punchier bass than the DA5ES. When listening to some music (Eagles DVD) it was subtle, only manifesting in the notes from the bass guitar. In scenes like the lobby shootout in the Matrix it made the difference between the soundtrack getting lost in the noise (DA5ES) and a good strong bass beat pacing the action.

Of course, now I need to check to see if it was a calibration issue. Phase 2 will be seeing if I can tweak the Sony to fill out the sound in that area.

Both were good for sound localization.

If I had to buy one or the other, I'd be going with the Outlaw. However, the question I'm facing is whether the upgrade is worth it. $899 - (resale value of DA5ES) + (use two channel amp if I want to go 7.1) = worth it? I'll be agonizing over this while I work on the Sony tweaks.

The time to acquire the digital signal is an annoyance, too, though not a deal-breaker. Since I use my DirecTivo a fair amount, it really screws with my timing when FF though commercials. I have to allow for a few extra seconds for sound to come back before the commercial ends.

--Mike

Besides difference in price, there is a difference in model year. I understand the Onkyo 838 receiver was first made sometime around 1996.

In general, upgrading from a receiver to a pre/pro should in general lead to improved sound, even when they are both current year models. But upgrading from an older receiver to a current model pre/pro should lead to as you said, quite an improvement in sound.

Will

Hi Will,

Yes good point about age of technology.

On a similar note, I was surprised at the differences money can buy on DVD players (both current this time).

I tested the Pioneer Elite DV-47A against the Onkyo SP800, via some A/B tests. Again, quite a noticeable audio different (on SACD and DVD-Audio, at least, not much that I noticed with DVD and CD). Was a big enough difference that I spent the extra $600 or so to get the Onkyo. With the DACs in that I listen a lot in bypass mode, and the combo sounds terrific...

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--Peter

Llamas,

I'm confused by your statement about digital signal and Tivo. I have a Tivo and it only has analog outputs, so I have no problems running it though the 950. Yours has digital out?

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--Peter

I've got a Hughes directTivo and it's got an optical out.. if you've got a stand alone Tivo that would explain it.. about 99% of the programming out there is stereo anyway.. I think I've only had DD on a few movies on HBO and I don't even think many pay per view chanels are in DD either... I think that if you record something that was sent in DD it'll play back the dolby signal.. as long as that was the selected audio format

It is, in fact, a DirecTivo thing. Since it records the satellite bitstream directly to the hard drive, it will also play the digital audio bitstream over the optical digital output, whether it be PCM or DD.

On a separate note, the friend that helped me compare things has expressed a concern that there might be something wrong (vs. in need of calibration) with the LFE out on my receiver. When playing back music in two channel mode (no sub), the bass was there, and sounded good. It was in modes where the sub was used the things started to sound thin.

--Mike

Hmm, I don't know of any way to select an audio mode in my tivo for a given recording. I assumed it recorded whatever it received from the cable box, but it might just stora everything in compressed stereo. Will have to look into it, and see if I can determine if any audio is stored in Dolby.... Interesting!

Generally, since upgrading my components, I can't listen to audio via the tivo. That is, I used to record concerts et al via tivo but they sound lame now, compared to digital sources. Will have to see if I can improve that.

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--Peter

The stand-alone TiVo has a realtime MPEG encoder which converts analog audio/video to digital. It does not accept or preserve any digital sources. The DirecTivo version does simply because it is saving the raw satellite digital stream.

--Mike

Ah, Unfortunately I have digital cable, which just gives me coax into the Tivo. Sounds like next system upgrade would be to get satellite (if I can see that part of the sky), with the better tivo. But then I'd be where you are, with a lag as the digital signal is latched by the 950?

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--Peter

ORM- Ahh, you should have tried a Pioneer DV-47ai. Has better DACs than the 47a and the Onkyo, which is actually based on the 47a, not the 47ai.

You might not want to look at the results in the latest Secrets shootout :

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=5

Video only performance. In order of their ranking.

Here is a complete review, where they do more comparisons between it and the 47a and 47ai:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_1/onkyo-dv-sp800-dvd-player-2-2003.html

The Onkyo is also talked about in the latest Perfect Vision.

Hi Kevin,

Look me a minute to figure out who "ORM" is :-).

Thanks for the heads up on the players. I want an SACD + DVD-Audio unit. Did some research and can't find a clear winner. The Yamaha S2300 has the best video performance, but possibly worst audio. The Pioneer 47ai has some video problems, but possibly fewer than the SP800. And the audio might be better as well. Seems like a better all-around unit than the SP800?

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--Peter

Peter- I agree, and yes, you know about the Yamaha's poor audio, in spite of it doing very well video-wise in the Shootout.

There is a Denon universal player coming out in maybe 2 months. Might be the all-around best unit we are all looking for, at a reasonable cost. (But Denon's typically get reviewed poorly for redbook CD sound.) I also keep hoping Sony will do an ES universal player, but the 999ES didn't even do that well in the shootout...

Back to your original question: I have a 950 connected to a Parasound HCA 1205-A. I enjoy putting on a show for guests. Some of the DVDs I throw in when they come over are:

• Saving Private Ryan - During the beach landing scene near the beginning, listen for bullets to ricochet off the tank traps and splash in the water behind you.
• Star Wars I - During the pod racing scenes, listen for the synchopated engine noise of the pod racer to fly from left to right.
• Star Wars II - During a scene where the heros are chased through an asteroid cluster, turn it up loud and listen to the dynamic range and noise floor. When they release a mine from their ship, the soundtrack goes silent, and then there's a huge explosion with a (buzz-like?) sound.
• Moulin Rouge - During the Can-Can, listen for the sound of clothes shuffling under the music. Also, during the same, there is a short cut of a man playing a tuba or brass instrument. His playing should come through loud and clear on the center channel during that brief cut.
• Monsters Inc. - Has a option where you can play only the sound effects track; no dialogue. It's really interesting... for about 5 minutes. This DVD also has a DTS surround sound into (DTS advertisment). It's a short movie clip that plays once you select DTS playback mode.
• James Bond, Tomorrow Never Dies - The opening sequence has a lot to test your subwoofer and system's clarity.
• Eagles, Hell Freezes Over (DTS) - The Hotel California cut is a classic remade.
• Fleetwood Mac, The Dance DVD - The cuts near the end seem to be mixed better. I personally like to listen to "Rhiannon". The USC Marching Band joins Fleetwood Mac in the song Tusk, and the band is supposed to be in the rear speakers, but the mix does nothing for me.

As an anecdote, I was alone at home on night watching "James Bond, The Living Daylights" when a streetcar came up from behind on the soundstage, but was still off camera. I stopped and restarted the movie twice thinking the noise was somebody in the kitchen
Happy Listening!

Hi Kevin,
Thanks for the heads-up. I can still return the Onkyo, so I think I'll do that and try your recommendation on the 47ai.


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--Peter

Hi All,

As a follow-up, I've been listening to the 47AI for a day now. I think it and the Onkyo SP800 are fairly similar. The 47 gets the nod (to my ear) in the high-frequencies for clarity and precision. I do like the front panel and remote of the Onkyo better, but the sound has to win and that means the 47. Now, deciding whether to send it to audiotweaks for the ultimate in sound...!

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--Peter

Audiotweaks? Oh:

www.tweakaudio.com

Man, looks tempting. (I am *still* debating trying to pick up a Marantz 8300 or not.)

I wish I knew if something like this was worth it or not. ORM, if you do this, let us know how it turns out. And reading through the Pioneer mod, might even be more cost effective to get a 45a, then mod it.

[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited March 02, 2003).]

good morning all!

i'm considering getting a 950/755 combo and pairing it with Paradigm Studio60 , anyonelse use Studio60?

-thnx

Good morning. Yes, I am using the 950 with a 750 (the 755's slightly less powerful predecessor) and Paradigm References: Studio/60 mains, Studio/CC, and three Studio/ADP's. I have been very pleased with the combination.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

applejelly,
You're not alone! It's happen to me also, exact same symtom! I started out with a red dot, got hiss and popping noise when going from analog to digital source. I sent it back to get fix, got update to ble dot, still make the popping noise but this time the popping noise not only when i switch sources but also when the format changes from AC-3 to DTS or PL!!! Also pop when power off the source DVD/CD...
I don't know what to do now!! On a difference note, the hiss is fix and the gain level together with the analog bypass, i love the analog bypass fix because i listen to the SACD all the time with my Sony SCD-777es. I think i'm going to give the Rotel-1066 a try next week.
Wish me luck!

Main-- Engery ref22 Connoisseur
Surround-- Energy RVSS
Enter-- Klipsch KLF-C7
Amp-- Citation7.1 bridge front.
Amp-- Citation5.1 rear.


[This message has been edited by hotnone (edited August 02, 2003).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hotnone:
[B]applejelly,
You're not alone! It's happen to me also, exact same symtom! I started out with a red dot, got hiss and popping noise when going from analog to digital source. I sent it back to get fix, got update to ble dot, still make the popping noise but this time the popping noise not only when i switch sources but also when the format changes from AC-3 to DTS or PL!!! Also pop when power off the source DVD/CD...
I don't know what to do now!! On a difference note, the hiss is fix and the gain level together with the analog bypass, i love the analog bypass fix because i listen to the SACD all the time with my Sony SCD-777es. I think i'm going to give the Rotel-1066 a try next week.
Wish me luck!

Main-- Engery ref22 Connoisseur
Surround-- Energy RVSS
Enter-- Klipsch KLF-C7
Amp-- Citation7.1 bridge front.
Amp-- Citation5.1 rear.
SACD-- Sony SCD-777ES.
Toshiba DVD-- 6200.