Well I am no longer the proud owner of a 950. I wanted to be, but it didn't work out.

I had an original 950, then a blue dot, then another blue dot. Finally return the final blue dot.

I liked my first unit, but the hiss was way too loud in my system. Scott agreed to let me keep it until they had a real hiss fix. Got the blue dot and the hiss was fixed, but the muting circuitry was the downfall for me. I seemed to one of the few people who heard a click/pop every time the digital input turned off for more than moment. This annoyed me (and my wife) enough to where I decided $900 was too much for a product that annoyed me.

I went and bought an inexpensive reciever (actually turned out to be the least expensive receiver I could find with all pre-outs). I then compared the 2 for just DVD's. Going back and forth, I think the 950 sounded a little better, but I couldn't really say for sure or why/how. What I could tell was that the receiver had no annoying click, locked on to the digital bitstream much faster (no missing the first couple seconds at the beginning of the THX intro), and for me, better user interface. Plus for being less than half the price of the 950 at a local brick and mortar, I sent the 950 back.

I still wished I could have kept the 950, but it didn't work out for me. I also have modest needs - DVD and TV. I use a used high-end DAC and a used high-end 2 channel preamp for CD's, so music is taken care of. I actually bought the 2 channel preamp when the hiss issue first came up with the 950. I already had the DAC. For others who use their 950 as their CD DAC, I can see how the 950 should improve upon my lowly receiver. But for decoding the already compressed DD/DTS signals, I figure my receiver is more than adequate.

So I guess I have to mostly agree with Kevin Brown with the $500 receiver and the $3k pre/pro. That assumes outboard amplification for both and using it to decode DD/DTS. As an analog preamp, I would disagree.

AJ- I assume that both blue dots had the click? That's wierd. Must just be an interaction with your system.

Well, most $500 receivers that have 5.1 analog "pass through" don't do "bass doubling" either...

Hi,

My first post here, but thought I'd add my opinion to the fray...

I had an Onkyo 838 receiver driving higher-end Cambridge Soundworks speakers (towers, center stage, S300 surround S1000 sub), with a low-end Sony DVD/CD carosel player. Thought it sounded pretty good. Wanted to move up to SACD/DVD-audio, improve the sound to get ready for a new TV (DLP or LCD rear projection probably).

Upgraded the receiver first to the 950/770 set, and the DVD player to the Onkyo SP800. Didn't try A/B testing on the receiver, but the improvement was obvious to everyone who auditioned it - sound was cleaner, less distortion, livelier, more accurate, etc. Nice soundstage, good depth. Music and movies both sounded better. Did do A/B testing on the DVD player as I have the Sony still hooked up as a sound source for my second room. Noticeable improvement even on CDs. The Outlaws have so much clean power that I can't get near max volume, and I have a "great room" (living, kitchen, dining in one room) that I need to fill with sound. And I like it loud.

So far, so good. But then I started thinking that the speakers were now the weak link, and wondering how much the outlaws were being limited by the speakers. Did some research. Decided to try out the Onix Rocket home theater #2 (750 mains, 200 center, 300 surrounds). Kept the subwoofer. Have just had them for a few days. Did A/B testing, with friends doing blind A/B testing. Very noticeable improvements again. Midrange about the same I'd say, but bass much tighter, I invented the term "less baggy". Treble is also much cleaner, clearer, dynamic.

So in my experience, yes, upgrading from a receiver to separates, at least with a distance in price, is well worth doing and can add quite an improvement in sound.

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--Peter

[This message has been edited by outlwrocketman (edited February 24, 2003).]

I spent more time comparing the DA5ES and 950, this weekend.

The difference that I can hear is in the bass. The 950 has punchier bass than the DA5ES. When listening to some music (Eagles DVD) it was subtle, only manifesting in the notes from the bass guitar. In scenes like the lobby shootout in the Matrix it made the difference between the soundtrack getting lost in the noise (DA5ES) and a good strong bass beat pacing the action.

Of course, now I need to check to see if it was a calibration issue. Phase 2 will be seeing if I can tweak the Sony to fill out the sound in that area.

Both were good for sound localization.

If I had to buy one or the other, I'd be going with the Outlaw. However, the question I'm facing is whether the upgrade is worth it. $899 - (resale value of DA5ES) + (use two channel amp if I want to go 7.1) = worth it? I'll be agonizing over this while I work on the Sony tweaks.

The time to acquire the digital signal is an annoyance, too, though not a deal-breaker. Since I use my DirecTivo a fair amount, it really screws with my timing when FF though commercials. I have to allow for a few extra seconds for sound to come back before the commercial ends.

--Mike

Besides difference in price, there is a difference in model year. I understand the Onkyo 838 receiver was first made sometime around 1996.

In general, upgrading from a receiver to a pre/pro should in general lead to improved sound, even when they are both current year models. But upgrading from an older receiver to a current model pre/pro should lead to as you said, quite an improvement in sound.

Will

Hi Will,

Yes good point about age of technology.

On a similar note, I was surprised at the differences money can buy on DVD players (both current this time).

I tested the Pioneer Elite DV-47A against the Onkyo SP800, via some A/B tests. Again, quite a noticeable audio different (on SACD and DVD-Audio, at least, not much that I noticed with DVD and CD). Was a big enough difference that I spent the extra $600 or so to get the Onkyo. With the DACs in that I listen a lot in bypass mode, and the combo sounds terrific...

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--Peter

Llamas,

I'm confused by your statement about digital signal and Tivo. I have a Tivo and it only has analog outputs, so I have no problems running it though the 950. Yours has digital out?

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--Peter

I've got a Hughes directTivo and it's got an optical out.. if you've got a stand alone Tivo that would explain it.. about 99% of the programming out there is stereo anyway.. I think I've only had DD on a few movies on HBO and I don't even think many pay per view chanels are in DD either... I think that if you record something that was sent in DD it'll play back the dolby signal.. as long as that was the selected audio format

It is, in fact, a DirecTivo thing. Since it records the satellite bitstream directly to the hard drive, it will also play the digital audio bitstream over the optical digital output, whether it be PCM or DD.

On a separate note, the friend that helped me compare things has expressed a concern that there might be something wrong (vs. in need of calibration) with the LFE out on my receiver. When playing back music in two channel mode (no sub), the bass was there, and sounded good. It was in modes where the sub was used the things started to sound thin.

--Mike

Hmm, I don't know of any way to select an audio mode in my tivo for a given recording. I assumed it recorded whatever it received from the cable box, but it might just stora everything in compressed stereo. Will have to look into it, and see if I can determine if any audio is stored in Dolby.... Interesting!

Generally, since upgrading my components, I can't listen to audio via the tivo. That is, I used to record concerts et al via tivo but they sound lame now, compared to digital sources. Will have to see if I can improve that.

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--Peter