I was thinking about the benefits of upgrading one day from the 1050 to the 950/770 stack and then started reading a lot of good ink about the Pioneer Elite 49TXi. It seems to have a lot of features but once calibrated with an SPL how do you think the Outlaw solution compares? I haven't been aware that I need video up conversion but I haven't thought about it.

The price is about the same if I bought the Elite over the net from an authorized reseller under $2700...what a drop from the MSRP!

I'm pretty happy with the 1050 but in the future I might grow into wanting more.



[This message has been edited by Hoots (edited February 10, 2003).]

I think you're talking about the "49"Txi
It's a great receiver!!
You will not be sorry

Well, two arguments in favor of separates are (1) a good amp should last you many years, even if (when) processing advances make the receiver or pre/pro's features obsolete, allowing you to replace only part of your investment; and (2) since you have a receiver with pre-amp outputs, you can spread the upgrade cost out over time by buying the amp first and then later getting a pre/pro to replace the receiver.

On the other hand, the Pioneer Elite 49TX and 47TX are both good receivers. The 49TX has been on my pre/pro chart from day one. The 770 is almost certainly a better amp than the 49TX's amp. I don't know how the pre-amp sections compare, but the 950 is certainly hard to beat and offers a few features that the 49TX lacks (more flexible bass management, bass management of the 5.1 analog input). The 49TX also offers some additional features, some of which may or may not be important to you (upconversion of video inputs to component, more inputs and outputs, THX). I suspect that either unit would be sure to please.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

as is normally the case in this forum, Gonk is on top of the question.

to add a bit to the question:

outlaw is, hands down, the better company if you have a question or a problem.

the warranty from outlaw is YEARS better.

though i haven't heard the pioneer, i have tried onk, marantz and integra. the 950 sounds better. the 950 has the best sounding low end of anything in it's price range i've ever heard and the detail in the remaining freqs is very, very good.

Gonk makes a good point for the seperate amp. i've had denon monoblocks for 11 years.

seperates are smarter than a receiver and have always been the best choice of the two. outlaw has made seperates an option for many more people than ever before by offering the 950/770 combo for a truly amazing price.

i've never owned a receiver (and that covers a LOT of years of music listening). i still have every preamp i ever owned. they still work fine and can be connected to any amplifiers. receivers, to me, are for entry level HT. a high end HT receiver just doesn't make sense to me, so i'm obviously biased. for equal dollars, there is no comparison between any receiver and the 950/770.

Without much research my gut has been telling me that if I wanted to upgrade I would stay with Outlaw, but I've read so much about the 49TXi I thought I'd ask.

Here's an individual that wasn't as impressed with the 770/950 as I would have thought. This isn't very specific so what is the Outlaw perspective?

"The technology in the Pioneer is far superior to the Outlaw ...it even has two of the latest Motorola chips for processing...I have also read independant reviews stating that the low noise floor is remarkable. You'll never read that about Outlaw."


Thanks!

I made a few erros in my rushed post at the beginning:
1. Yes 49TXi not 47
2. I see Gonk has the 49TX in his chart. I guess when I read it the first time I was only focused on the pre/pros thinking I was wanting separates for sure for all the reasons listed.

I have had a gut feeling that separates and the Outlaw stack specifically was my upgrade option...I don't want to spend a lot more ($2500 is a lot) and I have been extremely impressed with the support I get from Outlaw.

"Far superior" is a bit vague. The Pioneer is apparently based on Motorola chipsets (as is the Anthem AVM-20), rather than Cirrus chipsets (the chipsets used by the 950, the Rotel 1066, the Fosgate pre/pro, and a few others) -- the Motorola chipsets are certainly good technology, but whether they are superior to the Cirrus is (in my opinion) open to debate. I don't doubt that the 49TX has a good, low noise floor. For an MSRP of $4000 and a street price of around or above $2500, it needs to. The 950's noise floor has been the subject of much debate, but with the "blue dot" revisions I have a hard time arguing that it now lacks a low noise floor. I'd probably put the 49TX at or near the top of the list of flagship receivers (the new AVR-507 looks pretty impressive, too, but it will probably cost a few hundred dollars more). The flagships tend to offer more features than comparably-priced pre/pro amp combinations, for what that's worth...

Here's an idea that might help resolve your decision-making process: look around the shops in your area and do some listening to the 49TX compared to some of the 950's contemporaries (Rotel 1066, or even better yet one of the clones, either the Atlantic Tech or Sherbourn). That way you can compare the information available online, the resources of your budget, and most importantly your own ear. You may decide that you are perfectly happy with a receiver. Or you may decide that as nice as the Pioneer is, you will feel better with the "security" of separates so you can sell the pre/pro and buy something newer in two or three years when the latest and greatest technology arrives.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

[This message has been edited by gonk (edited February 10, 2003).]

I think Gonk's comments are outstanding and put things in better perspective. Thank you.

I do like the benefits of separates. I bought a Denon AVR2000 for close to $700 about 6 years ago and now I had to replace it because it's original DOlby only. Had I bought a 5-channel amp and separate pre/pro I could have leveraged the amp and simply bought a 950.

For what value I can add to the discussion, -the Pioneer flagship is a receiver I did some listening to when I was demoing speakers.

I personally preferred the Outlaw sound when comparing both units. But I did not bring the Pioneer home to tweak in my own acoustic space for a head to head. I don’t expect this information to sway you one way or the other, because it is a subjective choice. But the Outlaw 950/770 combination most assuredly is a much better match to the speakers I purchased and the Pioneer (in the demo room) could not come near the performance of the Outlaw combo when paired with the same speakers. If I had delighted in the sound of the Pioneer I would have felt compelled to add additional power to my system.
I made a comment about all speakers in that demo room feeling a tad anemic to me. The salesperson stated (whether he truly meant it or not, your guess is good as mine) that he was trying currently to initiate a changeover in systems in the room as he felt those particular speaker models were not ‘showcased to full potential as they were currently under powered’ This room contained Sonis Fabers, Martin Logans, Vienna Acoustics, and (4th/5th choices) I don’t recall at the moment.

After hearing my new speaker’s front ended by the Pioneer and some B&K separates. I have to agree with the salesman. Out of the box when paired with the 950/770 before calibration or placement there was an incredible range and presence to the speakers they just did not demonstrate back in the demo room. The demo room had been small, enclosed with entrance door and treated acoustically, so I feel like the Pioneer had a better shot at pushing the load under the stores controlled environment than it would in my untreated acoustic situation at home. I had warned the salesperson to expect to see me back, as I was not satisfied with the presentation of these speakers at the store, and on this purchase odds were high I would demo a few different models (at home) before I settled. There was no comparison, the speakers when paired with the Outlaw setup sounded like I was getting every pennies worth out of the new purchase. The difference was startling. My husbands first comment (he was at the store demo) in under 3 minutes listening was something like “If these speakers sounded like this back at the demo, they could probably manage to make quite a few more of them fly out the door”.

Lena,

I may have missed it in one of your other posts, but which speakers did you end up getting?

Mark

[This message has been edited by Rascal (edited February 10, 2003).]

I've been to that store chain and heard the Sonus Faber GP's and Concertos. I want to hear the Beethovens and Martin logans next. What were your speaker observations? I know this is a really subjective topic.

Hi Guys sorry just checking threads from last few days. Been tied up.
Here’s an unedited messy and very 'general impressions' of a reply! I purchased the Vienna Acoustics Beethoven’s and the VA Maestro center speaker.

Yes speakers are probably the most personality-oriented purchase we make. I’m going to have to go back and swing through the selections I heard to firm up what I remember (and models are fading) but:
The Sonus Faber GP were the closet to the VA’s. The salesman really pushed these to me hard, - although I think they were a little less (on sale or something) than the Beethoven’s so I tended to believe he truly preferred them. He stated he was saving up for them and that the GP’s were his personal favorites. I could not put my finger on the difference between the two choices. The Beethoven’s did lack (a tiny amount) in the bass as compared to the GP’s. But they had an overall presence that I felt solidly beat the GP’s across the board. The Martin Logans (3 or 4 models we listened to) intrigued my husband the most. He really wanted to (I could tell, - I know him so well) and tried to prefer these going back to them repeatedly But he finally stated that it was the ‘look’ of them most attracted him. They were rock solid on some frequency ranges in reproducing the music with least distortion or effects. He really felt the ML were a conversation piece using the planar technology. But without my prompting he used the exact word I was thinking to compare their sound to the Beethoven's when specifically listening to some solo grand piano pieces by George Winston and a few other CD’s in that acoustic type range. He turned and said the sound is ‘flat’ listening to the ML as compared to the Beethoven’s and even the Sonus Fabors.
I’ll be honest I bought these on a time crunched rampage and had only listened to whatever (all models) are available at Tweeters, Ultimate Electronics and a few months earlier had already demoed at a local high end boutique to whatever they had in on the floor under 6K.
There were a set of Polks at UE (I don’t think the most expensive model for Polk on the floor but I’m not sure, I’ll check the number next time I’m there) I’d have to see them to recall which model specifically but I believe they were new in 2002. I felt those were a very good buy for the price. (If I remember the pair I’m thinking about were anywhere from 800 to 1500?) If I had been limited to a tighter budget I would have gone back and given that Polk a second listen as compared to the VA’s Mozart’s etc which were also in their ballpark price range. There are several speakers I would love to have the opportunity to hear at some future time that the B&M’s just don’t tend to carry. But there is only so much time in a week. As life permits hope to hear many more.

Well, the best judge is your ears. No point being band-wagon about outlaw just because this is their forum. They choose to be different by listening to user feedback etc. So it only makes sense to do a fair review and we may get an even better product soon

If you bought the Pioneer DV 47ai like I did...it makes a lot of sense to buy the 49Txi and connect them with the iLink.
Pioneer has done a lot lately to improve their products and image. I must give them that. You will be seriously surprised at how clean the 49txi sounds
I am a computer engineer and don't want to get fooled by some of the BS the dsp people give us. Moreover accuracy in that domain by 0.1% will not affect SQ