all redirected bass is summed with lfe in all bass management, digital or analog.

when the 950's analog BM is switched 'off' satellites get full range signal and subwoofer gets below 80hz and lfe. that is a doubling of bass below 80hz into the satellites and the subwoofer.

when the analog BM is switched 'on' satellites are high passed at 80hz and below 80hz from the satellites goes to sub with lfe. there is then no doubling of 80hz and below.

actually, some view the switching setup as logical...not a bug. when you are in a stereo digital mode and you switch to 6 ch bypass, only stereo direct is connected. when you are in a multichannel digital mode and 6 ch bypass is selected, 6 channel analog is connected. 6 ch bypass has nothing to do with the dsp. sacd has both stereo and multichannel formats as well as redbook cd, depending on what disc you buy, so switching from digital playing of the cd layer to stereo sacd makes sense as it's configured. switching from the cd layer to multichannel requires hitting a multichannel digital button first.

Thats my issue, bass management set to OFF should mean there is no management. I was looking for a way to not have the 950 "redirect' anything, just pass thru what is being fed. To me it's like the THX thing where all speakers must be cut at 80Hz.


Apparently it does if I need to have a DSP effect set a certain way to allow a completely different input (6 channel analog direct) to play it's 6 channels.

Neal- As far as I know, DVD-A and SACD do support 5.1, so that there *can* be a dedicated LFE channel.

Keta- As far as bass summing on the analog 5.1 input, the Rotel 1066 does the same thing, just that it does not have the 80 Hz analog crossover, so that you cannot get rid of the "bass doubling." Somewhat "well known" issue with both processors.

Kevin, so you are saying that there should be no bass summing with the analog 80hz engaged and using the 5.1 analog inputs? How come when I route my cd player analog ouput to the 5.1 analog input the bass becomes really boomy? The cd player analog output to the cd analog input and using analog bypass sounds great. I have been thinking about getting a pioneer 47a universal player and that is the reason I was experimeting with the 5.1 analog inputs. Thanks for all your input by the way.

JAMMINJC- I was thinking one thing, and wrote another. What I meant was, when you do engage the 80 Hz analog crossover, everything works as it should it terms of the high pass filtering, the low pass filtering, and no double bass. Obviously, when the analog crossover is enagaged, you *do* get summing to the LFE channel of all the info from the mains below 80 Hz. Just that there is no double bass, because the mains are high passed at 80 Hz as well.

With the 80 Hz crossover off, you get summing to the LFE *and* full range mains, which gives you "double bass."

Now, as far using the 5.1 analog input vs bypass mode on a two-channel analog input: you will also get double bass on the analog 2-channel input if you have your speakers selected as small. You will get full range mains, *and* summed bass to the sub. My understanding is, if you set your mains as large in 2 channel bypass mode, the 950 turns off the sub, so no double bass, just full range mains.

I haven't really listened to much analog 2 channel bypass (the 950's DACs are good enough for me), so I can't really comment on the differences between that and the 5.1 analog input, except to say that's how it's *supposed* to work.

Thanks for your response Kevin. You are correct in the 2 ch bypass mode, if mains are set to large, no sub and if mains are set to small you get 80hz xover and sub.

On my system I have the mains set to small and the sound between the digital inputs and the 2ch analog bypass is so close I can't determine which is better sounding. But when I experimented with the 5.1 analog inputs (just using main l/r inputs) the bass became boomy and the overall sound was inferior in my judgement. Could this have something to do with the phase issue?

Well, only if you're out of phase to begin with!

Let's say you're out of phase for DVD-V's and CDs. The bass will sound as it sounds. You adjust your sub's level that way. You get used to it, so that sounds "normal". OK, now when you switch to the 6 ch bypass, you will now be *more* in phase, and hence the bass *should* sound louder, and potentially worse.

For 2 ch bypass, it's full range mains and no sub anyway, so no phase issue there. But, if you do have the speakers set as small, you will get double bass being *in phase" with the mains and sub, and that should sound bad too.

So...

- 6 ch bypass, in phase, boomy bass
- 2 ch bypass, small mains, double bass, in phase, boomy bass
- 2 ch bypass, large mains, phase n/a, good sound
- 2 ch digitally, out of phase, sounds good because that's how you have your sub's level set, and that's what you've become used to

Maybe? BoB?

One quick note concerning phase. I 1st tried to adjust the phase between my mains with the tests in Avia. I thought I got it right, and I was seemingly happy for a long time. Then I got a discrete test tone CD (Autosounds 2000 #101, or Stryke). I rapidly figured out that I had it wrong. When I *properly* adjusted the phase, my sub was then too loud. So it can happen very easily. The Chesky Ultimate DVD-V/DVD-A is a very useful disc for phase, and for a whole bunch of other stuff too. Avia is good for most things, but a waste for mains-to-sub phase IMO. The Chesky disc has phase tests that are a lot easier to judge if the phase is correct or not.

Avia and the Chesky disc make a nice combination.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited February 26, 2003).]

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sounds like a good assessment to me.
2 ch digital, mains set to small...flip the phase invert switch on your sub and see if it becomes boomy (make sure you're at the listening position to assess the difference after you invert the phase).

if so, KCB is correct.

BTW...once you get the uni player, this 2 ch through the 6 ch bypass will be moot...you'll never do that again. but, it will tell you how to set the phase switch for each format.

recommended discs for the new uni player:
SACD: spyro gyra 'in modern times'. james taylor 'hourglass'. in a week... pink flloyd 'dark side of the moon'.

dvd-a: yes 'fragile'.

dts-cd: sting 'brand new day'. alan parsons 'up in the air'. (any player)

Any chance this can get into a step-by-step or FAQ for us novices?

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sure...ask/answer/inform/be informed IS the general outline of this forum. it's the place to get to the bottom of any sort of 950 or related industry question. with people like sanjay, charlie, soundhound, KCB, SLL, etc., it's kind of crazy not to ask.

my stance on bass management and dvd-a/sacd with the 950:

the 950's analog BM has double bass when switched to 'off' (because 80hz and below will then be fed to the 5 satellites AND the subwoofer). here are the facts:

1. if you choose to shut the BM off, the low frequency dynamic range of dvd-a/sacd formats WILL exceed the capabilities of your satellite (fl, c, fr, sl, sr) speakers.

2. the correct placement of a single subwoofer in a given room is very difficult because of peaks and/or valleys in the response curve caused by room modes (the reaction of soundwaves in a given shaped confined space). at least, you have the option of moving your sub to find the best overall sound at the listening position. if you shut the BM off (assuming you would NOT have double bass), you now have 6 'subwoofers' all at different places in the room...a room mode excitation/phase problem nightmare...AND 5 of them can only each be precisely placed in the room with no option to move them around.

3. if you ignore facts 1 and 2, even if you didn't have the double bass situation, you would lose some bass content and hear a distorted low freq playback at the listening position.

these facts don't excuse the double bass situation, which is a mistake. they only make it a moot point, since a fixed, single high pass point for all satellites and a properly placed sub with a corresponding low pass point is the best playback method (this is also how they are monitored during the mixing of the discs) for dvd-a/sacd multi-channel music in the case of the 950 and a single subwoofer with these formats.

this makes it easy....dvd-a/sacd are decoded inside the player, sent out of the player via 6 rca cables to the 950's corresponding 6 analog inputs. switch bass management to 'on' (on the 950's rear panel). adjust your sub's low pass point to 80hz. play a song you like in either format that has a repeating single bass note type of riff while sitting where you listen. switch the sub's phase switch and play the same riff again. leave the phase switch at the position that plays the loudest bass. calibrate the 6 speakers as to volume level using a radio shack spl meter. i'll leave the speaker volume calibration details to someone else if anyone asks. in fact, each of these steps can easily be gone over in greater detail. this will lead to the greatest possible enjoyment of any dvd-a/sacd/950/5 satellite/1 sub setup.