I have a 950 from the middle of Sept. with no dot. I am using a Panasonic CP72 DVD player as the source and have all the interconnects for both analog stereo and 6 channel bypass for DVD-Audio.

I have the DVD player in the audio menu setup for 2-channel, not multi-channel.

950 bass management is set to Small for all speakers with mains at 60 and the others at 80 with sub turned on. I do have the 80 cutoff in use on the 950 for 6 channel bypass, which I leave on all the time.

Now, when playing a regular CD, I notice a much fuller sound, wider soundstage with more volume, and more extension when I use the 6 channel bypass over the 2 channel bypass on the 950 with the above mentioned settings. This applies also to DD/DTS when playing a movie, too. Also, I can adjust the tone settings if needed in the 6 channel bypass.

I do notice a different subwoofer effect too. I had heard it is out of phase on the 6 channel bypass, compared to all the other digital and 2 channel bypass options. Is that true?

On the 2 channel bypass, adjusting the tone controls has no effect. They move but sound doesnt change. However, now there is a Balance adjustment that is in with the Tone adjustments and that does change the sound the way it is supposed to. It is the only place I have seen a Balance adjustment on the 950. Any reasons for that?

Has anyone else noticed these things?

The 2 channel bypass sounds better than the digital, but there is another big sound jump when I go to the 6 channel bypass. Go figure.

http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000701.html

Yup.

Also, if you use 6 channel bypass with the 80 Hz analog crossover engaged, no double bass. If you do 2 channel bypass with small speakers, you get double bass. If you do 2 channel bypass with large speakers, no double bass. You might be hearing that too.

Thanks Kevin,

I remember reading that thread. So, no double bass on large speaker settings then? But then the sub wont be used at all and all bass will go to the Mains? Correct? Hmm, I will have to go experiment.

Are the double-bass and Sub phase issues addressable by the Outlaws through future firmware or is it a hardware issue?

Do you or anyone else have any personal experience to the overall sound being substantially better or different for typical 2 channel CDs in 6 channel bypass over 2 channel bypass?

Just FYI, even though you are using 6 channel mode, the sound only comes out of the mains and sub on 2 channel sources, of course depending on your bass management setup. Just wanted to clarify that.

Thanks again.

Right, no double bass with the large speaker setting. I presume that you'd want to turn the sub off (in the 950), although I don't know if that matters.



That I don't know. Never asked directly. I use the 80 Hz analog x-over, and digital connections for DD/DTS/CD so I never get double bass. As far as the phase, I just change the knob on my sub. I'd *bet* at least one of those will be taken care of in the 950 Mk II, if one ever appears...

I only use the 6 channel bypass for DVD-A and SACD. The DACs in the 950 are "good enough" for me for everything else.

And yes, if you have a stereo source, and you use 6 channel bypass, you only get output through the 2 speakers. (Or the mains and the sub, if crossed over.) For me, it's even simpler. I have a 2 channel amp plus a 5 channel amp to get 7.1. For the vast majority of my listening, I only ever need the 2 channel amp powered on.

I have two HK 5 channel amps powering my setup. 4 speakers in the back/sides. My mains are MA Silver 5i, so I prefer to use my Sub with 2 channel music. Thats a Velodyne 10 inch.

Give the 6 channel bypass a shot for your stereo music listening and let me know what you find. It really is quite an improvement to my ears, so far.

I was just thinking, that the reason why I *don't* do that, is that then I'd be switching the phase on my sub all the time back and forth. But, ... if I listen to 6 ch bypass all the time, then don't have to (except maybe to use DD/DTS decoding in the 950). Might be worth a listen...

Okay, a few more finds between 2 channel analog bypass and 6 channel analog bypass. On 2 ch. bypass, there is no adjusting of the main speaker trim levels individually, only a balance adjustment in the Tone controls. However, the Speaker level trim visual will change as will the tone controls visual, but the only real adjustment available is the balance, and of course the volume. All of this, I already realized.

However, on 6 ch. bypass, all the adjustments are available and also usable, except now the balance control disappears. Of course, it's really not needed now because you can adjust each speaker individually with the trim controls.

My question is this. Is the 6 channel bypass a TRUE bypass? Because, it seems quite differently handled by the 950 and the sound is much different from the 2 channel bypass. Much wider soundstage to me.

Lets hear some thoughts on this please.

Forgot to mention, I changed the sub phase and it sounded much cleaner on the low end with the 6 channel bypass. I can only change mine 180 degrees at a time.

[This message has been edited by Sdwinder (edited January 23, 2003).]

Ummm....If you could do anymore than that, I would be very impressed.

I am under the impression that the 6 ch bypass is *almost* a true bypass (except for double bass w/o the 80 Hz analog crossover).

In other words, if I set levels within the 950, presumably only for digital and analog inputs that are A-to-D'ed and back again, that has no effect on the 5.1 analog inputs. I can guess that this is so, because when I adjust levels within my DVD player for its 5.1 analog outputs to the 950, the levels set in the DVD player are quite close, but not exactly the same as within the 950. In other words, if the 950's settings also applied to the 5.1 analog inputs, I wouldn't have to adjust anything at all with the DVD player. Easy enough to test, but I just assumed it was this way based of the levels adjustments I got within the 950 and within my DVD player...

I can adjust my sub phase anywhere from 0 to 360 degrees. Thought that was possible on many subs, maybe not.

[This message has been edited by Keta (edited January 23, 2003).]

Keta- Most subs are *not* like that.

Most subs just have a switch for 0 or 180 deg.

Some subs have a variable phase knob.

My sub has a variable phase knob that covers about 210 deg, but it also has an inverted input too. So for me... Between the inverted input and the std polarity input, and with the phase knob, I can get 0 to 360 deg. I wasn't aware of many subs with a knob that would do 360 deg alone...

Kevin you are correct that it is not a single knob, it's a toggle for 0 and 180 degrees and a rotory knob from 0 to 180 combined in the "Phase Control". The sub is an NHT Sub-Twoi which uses it's own controller. The controller has so many control options it sometimes make tweaking difficult because of the countless possibilities.

Ok, time to ask the experts out there because now I'm just really confused. In my short experience, a signal is either "in phase" or "out of phase." This would dictate a switch on the sub that selected between 0 degrees and the reverse of that which is 180 degrees. What's the deal with sub's offering "in between phase"? Please somebody help out this curious soul.

It will give you more adjustment to help give a smooth bass response. Your other speakers bass and the subs bass can cause peaks and dips in the frequency response depending where you are in the room. This adjustment allows you optimize the bass response for your listening position a little more closely by turning a knob instead of moving the sub to different locations. It actually does seem to work well compared to a different sub I own that just switches 0 to 180.

IIRC it's usually implemented as a variable all pass filter - basically an active crossover that doesn't discriminate based on frequency but still gives a phase shift. Some systems (generally in the processor) also give a delay adjustment.

It's not a digital effect: either "in phase" or "out of phase".

Essentially, "in phase" means you are getting perfect 100% constructive interference between the frequencies of the mains and the sub where they overlap (near the crossover freq). 0 deg phase diff. In other words, sound is comprised of waves at different freqs and amplitudes. When 2 signals are in phase, the peaks of one signal line up with the peaks of the other, at the same freqs. The 2 signals add together so that 2 + 2 = 4.

When something is 100% "out of phase", 180 deg out, the peaks of 1 signal perfectly line up with the valleys of the other. If you add peaks and valleys, typically you don't get much of anything. They cancel. 2 + -2 = 0. Hence the bass level is lowered near the crossover freqs. (A full wavelength is 360 deg.)

So if you can imagine 1 wave passing over another, the phase can be anywhere from 0 deg (perfectly in phase) to 180 deg (perfectly out of phase) back to 360 deg as the waves start to line up again, but where the peaks and peaks (or peaks and valleys) don't perfectly line up, for example, you can be 57 deg, or 235 deg out of phase.

What a lot of people don't understand is, if you are 360 deg out of phase, you are actually back in phase, but now one signal is 1 full wavelength after the other (or delayed from the other). So now ever though you are in phase, bam, your time alignment is now hosed.

Hopefully that helps!

(Much easier to illustrate with actual waves on 2 different pieces of paper.)


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited January 24, 2003).]

Thanks for the replies...I do truly love the level of knowledge displayed on this forum.

Hello all. I'm glad this thread was brought up, because I still don't really understand the difference between 2-channel stereo analog bypass and 6-channel analog direct mode, for stereo sources. I hope you all can set me straight.

My DVD/CD player is a Sony ES9000. It has only stereo 2-channel outputs for analog, no 5.1 analog outputs. Can I plug these into 2 of the 6-channel analog direct inputs on the 950 and get better sound? The ES9000 probably has better DACs than on the 950. Right now I have the ES9000 stereo analog outputs plugged into the 950's stereo analog CD inputs.

I guess I thought I was already using only the ES9000 DACs by choosing analog stereo bypass mode on the 950. How is this different than using 6-channel direct with just the left and right cables plugged in?

My goal is to use the ES9000 DACs and get pure analog sound to the mains and the subwoofer to see how that sounds-- and to still have the other modes (digital) sound good and have bass set up correctly for movies or 5 channel stereo.

So, to do this I should plug the ES9000 into 2 of the 6-channel direct inputs on the 950, turn on the 80 hz crossover switch, and select 6-channel direct mode, correct?

Does anyone have a similar setup and noticed better sound this way? Maybe this is what SDWinder is describing, but I'm not entirely sure.

Two issues I with this approach: I set up the bass to use Small speakers and have a smooth crossover point in digital modes. So it seems like the bass transition may or may not be as smooth using the 80 hz crossover switch in analog direct mode. Also the issue of the sub being out of phase in 6-channel direct if it is in phase for other modes? If so, that seems like a problem. If I have to keep changing the phase switch between movies, 5 channel stereo, and 6 channel direct stereo music that may not be worth it. I wonder if the Outlaws could fix this by modifying the ICBM to include a phase control for sub? Ok, here is my summary from reading this thread:

Two channel analog bypass stereo mode:
Uses only ES-9000 DACs
Double bass
Sub stays in phase with mains for this mode and digital modes
No trim controls

Six channel direct mode:
Uses only ES-9000 DACs
No double bass
Sub out of phase with mains if it is in phase for other modes
Trim controls active

Comments and education welcome!
-HTLearner

I can't explain in any technical detail but the 6/bypass was a vast improvement for my ears. I dont mess with the sub phase (no adjustment) it is a noticable difference but not a bad one. The phase shift seems to smooth out the bass a little, and add a little too. I can locate the sub a little more in this setup. It is worth pointing out that when A/B'ing this you will get a little more volume with the 6/bypass. This will make it seem better than it really is at first, but after you live with this config for a while you start to really notice a better stage (at least I did). Good luck!

Thanks hardwood. I haven't gotten much feedback, so I re-posted this question under "950 2 channel bypass vs 6 channel bypass redux". Hopefully I will get some more replies there.

-HTLearner