I am starting this thread in hopes that if a great number of us post our feeling about the outlaw logo and look(most of us hate it with passion) maybe we will convince the people at Outlaw to change that ugly logo as well as the look of all their products. I for one will galdly pay more for a classy look /finish.

I don't think it looks all that bad, especially with the new font. NAD products look similar, which is not surprising since the head Outlaw came from there, I believe. I do wonder though why they bothered to use an aluminum faceplace on the 950 and then go to what seems a lot of trouble to make it look like it's made of plastic.

Personally, I wouldn't pay more for more flashy looks - the beauty comes from within

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 16, 2003).]

I have started a thread with the same topic at avsforum.com and I must say, Soundhound you are the first one to say you don't mind the look. Check out what others have to say at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=212363&highlight=outlaw

[This message has been edited by eskendir (edited January 16, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by eskendir (edited January 16, 2003).]

The logo is just part of what makes Outlaw so unique. One NO vote here. And keep the green too.

eskendir:

Well, regardless of what other's may think on another forum, I buy equipment for what it _does_, not what it looks like. Frankly, they could have packaged the 950 in a grey 'bud box', and it wouldn't matter to me (much-- ) When the 950 had a hiss issue, that was important, and I was one of the first to call them for it. They fixed it more effectively than anybody had hoped. Things like cosmetics don't compare to real operational issues.

I realize that looks are very important to some people, (hell, I have a motorcycle that's got more chrome than a 1959 Cadillac) but with electronic equipment, looks for me are secondary. Look at some of the recent pro-audio equipment! The "ugly" retro-big-nasty-black-knob-wrinkle-paint-finish stuff is selling like mad.


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 16, 2003).]

soundhound:
My wife doesn't care how an equipment performs if it looks ugly. I have a hard time bringing home products like Outlaw's. I always have to balance looks and performance when I purchase audio/video products. Even though all Outlaw products are very good performers their look is down right ugly. When one can have both good looks and performance, why settle for less?

[This message has been edited by eskendir (edited January 16, 2003).]

mine sits in an entertainment system behind smoked glass so I can barely see it with the lights on. We generally watch movies with the lights dimmed. I could care less how it looks, but I do actually LIKE the simple look. reminds me, as SH said, of the old classic NAD stuff. I own several pieces of that (old NAD) also.

Hell, if they don't like the looks, for the $600 difference you could build a small closet to hold everything but the DVD player and VCR, and add an IR repeater. Then everything is completely out of site, including wires, and the wife would be ecstatic!

Maybe she's an interior decorator at heart (or literally), so looks are very important. Great, I say. Truth be told, I think the looks of Bose equipment is pretty spiffy .....B...U....T.....!!

I have much bigger fish to fry. Besides, you can always take the faceplate off and have it titanium plated, airbrushed or whatever, put your own graphics on, and really make a fashion statement.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 16, 2003).]

I like the new logo, I like the green button (adds character), I do wonder why they work so hard to make a nice aluminum faceplate look like something less than it is. If I had a say I'd just switch from that powder coat looking stuff to a brushed black anodized finish and call it good, but it's not a huge deal.

Actually the biggest gripe I have with the cosmetics (and cosmetics are secondary anyway) is the cheap and funky looking volume knob that seems to be an Outlaw Audio signature item. It looks like a half melted factory second. Something in aluminum, finished to match the faceplate (see above ) and with simple knurling or rubber inserts would go a long way IMO. While they're at it the rest of the switchgear looks a bit cheap too.

Everything else is maybe not exactly to my taste, but that's not really a valid critique. Looking cheap IMO is always bad.

I wonder if/when the 950 will appear with the new logo...

I say, change the logo. The newer one *is* an improvement. But get rid of the silk screen, and go to metal plates or something.

I don't believe that the *appearance* of the 950 is indicative of the performance contained within.

Some people *do* unfortunately judge a book by its cover.

Many posts in the past about people who would buy the Sherbourn and AT version simply because of the higher upscale looks on them.

When I said I like the logo I was referring to the *new* logo. Didn't really like the old one and yes, I'd consider the AT if it doesn't cost too much more. Not because I'm judging the performance by the wrapper, just because the wrapper is part of the product, and I have to look at it every day.

Too bad the AT looks like it has the same or similar cheap molded knob.

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited January 16, 2003).]

SH your function over form theory works for me to! But the question I have is does the ugly volume knob work? On most of the 1050s they didn't work worth squat, as a matter of fact mine doesn't work well at all and am thinking of remedying the situation.




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m-mmeyer
GO TWINS
My DVD's

I think the New look logo they have on the 200 looks pretty good. They should release it on the New 950's. The green button has got to go, everyone who had said they think it looks cool, has got to be kidding. The fit and finish of the 950 is really pretty good but they should think of how the 950 is preceived buy a potential buyer. The face plate looks like a 500 dollar piece of gear at best, but sounds like a piece of gear two or three times its value. Just dress it up a little, use something like the Pioneer Elite or Sony gloss black. I dont want to be a 950 beauty basher, but if your spending money already to finish a product, and there isnt any additional cost to finish it why not do it. So here we go, replace the green power button with black. Replace the volume dial with something fitting a piece of higher end gear. Get rid of the industrial finish and go to something with a gloss black or smooth look semi satin finish. The new silk screen is a must. Well I guess I turned out to be a beauty basher after all, sorry Outlaw. Now that I have hit you square in your face plate, I cant say enough about what a great sounding piece of gear the 950 Blue dot is.

Interesting to see this topic reappear. Prior to the logo change (see the new font at the top left corner of this browser window, and on the face of the new Model 200's), there was a heated debate about the logo. Even with that somewhat whimsical logo, there were a large number (probably majority) of posters in this forum who liked the logo or didn't care either way. I can't speak for the membership of other forums, but historically most of us have not hated it, without or without a passion. With the revised logo, I think they addressed the major complaints presented in that thread. I would like to see future production runs of the existing product line (950, 770, 755, ICBM, 1050) use the new logo, but I suspect that's already in Outlaw's plans. (My office is in the midst of a name change, so I feel for them on the endless hassles involved on a logo change -- it's almost impossible to implement instantly.) A metal plate (maybe a simple casting) in place of the silkscreen might be nice, but I understand why they haven't done anything like that to date. Personally, I like the logo (new more than old, but I never had a problem with the old one) and the green power button, for what it's worth...

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Dobeman:
I couldn't agree with you more. Great comment.

A metal plate generally looks like some very low production cheesy thing to me. Silkscreen is OK, if you need something better etch or engrave or something. The green button is a non-issue.

My recipe:

- Fix the switchgear, especially the volume knob.
- Consider a nicer finish.
- Use the new logo.

Those who can not stand the Outlaw logo can get the Sherbourne or the Atlantic Technology.

Or anything else for that matter. I don't see that clones are the only option.

If we are polling, and being female (who usually rate ‘looks’ high) I guess I’d have to say I’ve accomplished a 190. At first glancing at the Outlaw I was disappointed it did not have what I considered the elegant quietly unassuming good looks of my old receiver. Which was brushed Aluminum. (which some people hate).

Then as every piece was replaced in the last 12 months, I ended up with ‘all black’ faceplates…on everything……luck of the draw. When our infamous AV cabinet was completed and everything slid in. Everyone commented on the ‘look’ of the setup, how it looked imposing (but took a backseat) to the display which sits just above. The all black ‘wall’ (3 and 3) was a nice look, which did not distract from the screen. Then I went and purchased a new HD STB, faceplate silver. Screwed the whole theme up and even the teenagers commented…. Why’d you get silver? (Only comes in). Well so happens this unit was returned and I’m back to midnight across the board. . But it made me realize that unlike shoe and dress matching  . There’s no telling ‘what’ color/material I’ll end up with down the road, since I can only buy for performance (not theme) it will just have to be…’luck of the draw’.

I’m used to ‘Car’ guys who will shoot you if you lean on their paint and ‘Aviators’ who shoot you if you walk down a wing wrong. But I never realized ‘AV’ guys ‘CARED’ so much about aesthetics’.

I was admiring the sheer good looks and poetry of line in a ‘Total Control’ Steering rack mechanism the other day. It almost looked like modern art rather than a front end part, so it is nice when the ‘outer’ satisfies (…. a perk on top of a buy for ‘function’).
Would not bother me if they changed it, but does not bother me a bit, - if they don’t…in fact….
“I’ve grown accustomed to your face”.

Now if they can do something to give it the kind of distinctive good looks of most Ferrari’s or a Shelby Series One - Vs say any Sedan……I might sit up and take notice. They just don’t have that much sheet metal surface area to play with in AV.

Hey do you think we could change the 'horse' to the Ferrari stallion!

I'm confused - work? Isn't it supposed to turn, and in doing so, raise and lower the volume? Besides, my hand is covering it when I'm using it anyway, so I can't see it

Peter Tribeman is probably quakeing in his boots, knowing the fashion possie is a 'gunnin fer him.....



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 16, 2003).]

Soundhound,

I like that quakeing in his boots, gave me a good laugh. Now that he is aware of the fashion possie he will have to lay down with one eye open from now on.

Just like a bad penny.




I'm in the same boat as Gonk here folks.




Actually, Aviators have a good reason for that. Change the shape of their wing - i.e.; denting it by walking in the wrong area - and you'll change the way it flies ... if it still flies.




Knowing Peter as I've come to over the past several years ... I have to say that I don't think there's much in this world that would make him "quake in his boots".


[This message has been edited by psklenar (edited January 17, 2003).]

I do not like the new "Outlaw" font, glad I got the original logo (which I also dislike). I think the little guy on the horse "O" is friggin hideous.

Everything else about the 950's aesthetics I love. I think it looks understated and classy, I even like the volume knob. A more classy logo would be cool, but I buy this stuff to use not to look at. When the lights are down and the movie's on who cares what everything looks like? I've got at least 6 different brands and looks in my system rack so it's a big mess anyways.

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Philip Hamm

[This message has been edited by Philip Hamm (edited January 17, 2003).]

To me, it looks fine. Not that much different from all the other "black boxes" I have. Some are shinier that others.

I kinda like the logo...in fact, I am still hoping for some merchandising type things...coffee mugs, hats, etc...

[This message has been edited by Oaf (edited January 17, 2003).]

Hideous? There must be something wrong with me. I seem to be under the notion that I bought an incredible piece of audio equipment at a rediculously lower price than it is worth. Yet people are worried so much about looks, and even a logo, that they would contemplate paying hundreds of dollars more for something that nobody looks at when a movie is playing.

I don't have a dedicated HT only room so there are lots of times (most of the time, actually) when I can look at it and there's no movie playing. It is at these times I notice cosmetic issues, and yes, I might consider paying a few hundred more to get away from them. More likely it could be a factor that would tip me toward spending a thousand or so more to eradicate the cosmetic and a few other issues with it. Little things can add up.

Having said that I must apply a bit of perspective to the above by restating that yes, of course cosmetics are a secondary or tertiary concern, but they are a real factor in market acceptance none the less.

I get the strong feeling I'm not alone on this, that there are quite a few customers that are buying on value (a good idea) but who are not completely thrilled with the cosmetics of the equipment. Someone might want to notice this.

Just my $0.02.

Maybe the solution is for the Outlaws to offer a low cost "logo enhancement" self-stick plaque to cover the original logo. Many suppiers of A/V equipment use a raised plaque as their standard way to show off a logo already.

For me, I really don't care. As has already been pointed out in this forum, you can't see the logo when the lights are out. Many of use have most of the gear hidden from constant view anyway.

Personally I like the look of the unit. The green button is destinctive, now if the LCD display had been green as well that would be cool.

However the day I brought my 950 home my wife's first comments were "That logo is horrible they really need to change it." The new one pictured on the 200 gallery is not much of an improvment to her either.

So my offer is that since she is a graphic designer in marketing we will happily design a new one in exchange for some gear. Peter if you are interested let me know.

Dragon

While it should be self-evident that performance matters above all, commenting on the rather anemic aesthetics doesn't mean you have made that your priority.

The technical merits and performance of the 950 will never drive a customer away - but the looks, well, that can and probably has.

From a consumer's perspective - that is their loss. But from a company's perspective, that customer is their loss. And that matters.

When a product performs three times its price *AND* looks three times its price, you truly have a remarkable product. Missing any part of the equation makes it novel at best.

I think the 950 is an excellent product - good enough that there are three clones. But aesthetically speaking - it is, IMHO, third rate.

Something tells me that if they had the "look" of a Krell, Mark Levinson, Aragon, EAD, Parasound's Halo etc.. defending its current look would be difficult. Good design (exterior) doesn't have to be expensive.

Considering the economies of scale - one would think the price increase (if necessary) would be minimal. A low price-point is one of Outlaws primary goal - and they should continue that mission.

One vote to improve the looks. The new logo is not much of an issue.




[This message has been edited by trancethereal (edited January 17, 2003).]

Pls remember folks, it was never my intention to question the performance or value of the 950 nor any of other Outlaw's products for that matter. But when you can both good looks and performance, why not shoot for both? Remember there are great a number of folks out there who have to the approval of their spouse to bring some beast like the 770 home. I can tell you most of us would have a great deal of hard time to convince the other half, if we can convince them at all. I have no doubt that Outlaw have lost many potential customer because of the cheap cheesy look of their product.

eskendir:

I see your point, and I actually agree. I wonder how much of the mindset of the Outlaws is that a product must 'look the price'? This is something that the Head Outlaw has to ask himself. I'm not bothered by "the look",. but then again, I am not bothered by the look of 'industrial electronics' - I admit it, I'm a gearhead. You have brought up an intresting thread, and a very useful one. Let's see what happens......

You're welcome to dislike the current logo, but all I ask is that you don't question our sanity, belittle us or act incredulous when some of us say that we actually like the logo as is. Because some of us do. Me for one.


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pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

Now that's funny. It looks like your examples may prove that good design IS expensive. Starting in the thousands. I will admit though, that Halo equipment does look good! So, what's CHEAP and looks good according to all you design experts?

I guess we all need to remember that whatever each of us thinks, is opinion. Not meant to denigrate what anyone else thinks or feels.

Oh, cheap gear that looks good: Acurus, in my opinion. "Value oriented audiophile gear." You can make good sounding gear that looks good too. And depending on what the upper ceiling for "cheap" is, I say that the B&K Ref 50 is hands down the best looking pre/pro out there right now. The old Ref 7250, 2220, etc. amps are also very nice looking. The Rotel 1066 ain't half bad either. But I wanted the features, performance, and quality inside the 950 in spite of its "underwhelming" looks. *My* opinion...


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited January 18, 2003).]

soundhound:
Thanks, I hope the debate will continue to intesify with more sound input/thoughts from many other Outlaw owners and non-owners alike.

I think the point here is that a product like the 950 doesn't have to look butt-ugly to work right. The AT clone will perform exactly the same, but uses a slightly different finish on the faceplate and buttons, which couldn't possibly add that much more to the price. Most high-end preprocessors have been "beautified" by their manufacturers, which means that most have decided that high-end gear should also be relatively attractive. I keep my gear in an open rack for maximum ventilation, so everyone has to look at this stuff. But, if you have those tasteful paintings of dogs playing poker and pool and stuff on the wall of your AV room, maybe cosmetics aren't such a big concern.

That said, Outlaw could probably make even more money and please even more customers by at least offering a silver finish with complementary buttons on the faceplates of their gear and charging another $100 or so for it... A win-win situation for everyone.


[This message has been edited by dmeister (edited January 18, 2003).]

I think, at least for me, you're absolutely on the right track. Cosmetics alone won't kill a sale (for me) but they do contribute to the overall value of the package. So if the overall value can be substantially boosted with a minor amount of cost - go for it. It's a business choice, in the end.

I just got my 950 yesterday and the only thing that I was worried about was the looks of the unit. I was not worried about its performance at all. I was actually a little nervous while opening the box. I have read a lot about the unit over the past couple of months and always read about how cheap their gear looks. After looking at it for a day now, the only thing that stand out in my eyes is the volume knob. The logo, buttons, and finish do not bother me at all. I just wish it had a aluminum or nicer looking volume knob. The rubbery look just doesn't do it for me.

But the rubber protects you from injuring your fingers if you have to lower the volume in a hurry

soundhound: now that is funny

[This message has been edited by eskendir (edited January 18, 2003).]

I agree. The new logo is an improvement IMO, but the old one wasn't that bad. The volume knob looks like a factory second of a cheap knob, kinda crummy to start with and misshapen on top of that.

The other stuff could stand improvement, but isn't important at all. Heck, the knob is really ugly but cosmentics are secondary. I could live with it, I'm just not sure that's a ringing endorsement to the marketing or design dept.

Check this out. I came across this interesting post at AVS forum.


I am planning on purchasing an Outlaw 770...

Not because of it's looks (obviously) but because of it's performance.
I am certainly not one to pass a great product by, just because I don't care for it's appearance, afterall, form does follow function imo... but things like the look of the Outlaw are relatively easy things to fix, and probably never should have been done to begin with.

Are the looks going to keep me from buying Outlaw?
Probably not.

Would I really prefer it if they were prettier?
Absolutely... and I'd pay more for it.

I will let it be known that I am keeping my options open with regards to amplifiers to power a Rocket Ultra System... and if the Outlaws had a more refined look, I probably would have ordered the 770 already. If I find a similar value (don't think I will) that is more aesthetically pleasing, sucks to be Outlaw.

I can agree with the philosophy that performance should always outweigh looks... however, when it comes to items of this nature, we being HT/Music enthusiasts have certain things we're used to seeing. High quality finishes, and aesthetically pleasing designs are rather common in the world of A/V... and as this post clearly illustrates, the people who are spending the money like them.

Again, Outlaw is still #1 on my list for the incredible value it represents... but couldn't we even get flat black? I would be just fine with a flat black finish, like NAD. I think that has a classy look. Grey plastic, and fisher price style green buttons don't do it for me.

I'll end up rattle canning this bad boy... watch.

You bring up a good point DennisG. The 950 does look a lot better "in person" vs. the pictures on the net.

Hey! I resent that! I like those dogs. I think mine's an original by Kinkade! Looks great next to the Elvis on velvet painting. And the orange shag really sets the mood! I have to admit though, I would like a 950 in silver cause that would really go well with the wheels on my house.

My opinion also! I'm guessing that in order to sell this unit for $899 and meet budget, the money spent on cosmetics (or design) was minimal with the "big bucks" put toward the insides. Maybe the future "higher-end" processor will knock our socks off with a super looking exterior to go with a knockout list of features. For a "little more money", of course!



[This message has been edited by steves (edited January 18, 2003).]

Hey, Steve, better hang on to that Elvis painting -- mighty hard to find velvet Elvis these days. I was just talking about that with an architect earlier this week. (Yep, one of the perks of living in Memphis, we get to keep up to date on the caliber of Elvis souvenirs...)

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

The front panel of the 950 is actually aluminum, they just went to a lot of trouble to make it _look_ like plastic. Weird, huh.....

Cool, I heavily agree that looks *enhance* the package, but it would take some gawdaweful looks to turn me off of a piece of gear that otherwise was an excellent performer.

Personally, I'd be very interested to see if ever there's a 950 Mk II and if anything changes cosmetically, and then if/when the 950's big brother comes out.

Another thought is this: when someone visits and checks out my HT, there's a certain level of "class" inherent with the rest of my gear. The 950 is kind of the "ugly duckling" or the "black sheep" of the bunch... I'd prefer it to be more of a "statement" component, but I guess you can't win 'em all!

This topic continues to be debated hotly here and on AVS forum. Check it out.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=212363
Hope the people at outlaw are listening.

eskendir,

I *know* you didn't write this, you just cross posted it from AVS, but I still have to remark ...

Yet another complaint about how Outlaw equipment looks by someone who's never seen any nor (and this is my beef with the original poster) even spoken with someone who has. As anyone who's seen an Outlaw piece and they'll tell you ... they are black. The face plates are a piece of flat black anodized, machined aluminum. The remained of the cabinets are semi-glass black ... I'm not sure if they're powder coated, or painted tho.

{sigh}




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pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

I would keep the discussion here, not at the AVS forum. I _know_ the "Big Outlaw" reads these forums, can't say the same for the AVS.

I have poked around AVS, and I got's to say, it seems like a kind of 'urban sprawl' type of place - too crowded, too faceless. I prefer the intimacy of this forum: it seems like a friendlier place.

My 950 *may* be black, but I don't think of it as black. Compared to my other components that really are black, the 950 is a little more grayish. Might be the surface roughness or the specific finish.


Oh yeah, so I just went through the Outlaws products pages, and also looked at the new ad for the 950 on HTF. They all sure look gray to me!


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited January 19, 2003).]

soundhound: you got a good point there. Still, wouldn't hurt to read what others are saying outside of this dedicated Outlaw forum. Most people here seem to be very satisfied Outlaw customers which I am sure Outlaw knows about. What I want Outlaw to know is the potential customers they have lost because of poor aesthetic of their products. Outlaw can get this kind of feedback by venturing outside of this little forum of ours.

[This message has been edited by eskendir (edited January 19, 2003).]

Does anyone believe that part of the Outlaw mystique is that of: "astetics be damned, we are about the sound"? Seems to me that the Outlaw newsletters tended to imply that the sound was all that was important.

I was just noticing the Outlaw add in Home theater magazine. Compared to other products, the Outlaw 950 and 770 did look "less elegent". An Adcom amp a few pages prior had a more refined faceplate, come LEDs and a black power button. Would someone buy the Adcom over the 770 because of the appearance? Maybe so.

I think the Aragon amps look cool, but am not willing to pay big bucks for one.

The Denon 3802 stuffed in my rack has a nice finish and nice feeling knobs. (Not that I feel the knobs very often ) The buttons are cheap feeling though. That goes for the Panasonic RP-82 DVD player. The buttons are cheap feeling on it as well.

I think most well informed purchasers place price and performance at top of priorities. Seems to me Outlaw is targeted at the well informed crowd and is trying to hit the niche of low price/high performance. Even so, I say, put some nice aluminum knobs on your products. I like nice feeling knobs.

I've always been a form follows function guy, so even though I do not care for the logo, it is a matter of degree. When form matches function, especially for little or no increase in cost (price)then design nirvana has been achieved. That silly toy-like Outlaw logo prevents Outlaw from achieving this. But I just close the cabinet and listen to the functional aspects of the deal and the price I paid which far more than compensates for what I choose not to look at.

It would be nice if the 950/770 were available in the same finish as model 200 but with a new logo. The 200 looks great. All black, no big ugly green button and cheap plastic looking finish here.

From the pictures I've seen, the finish on the Model 200 is the same as the finish on the 950, 770, 755, and ICBM. The logo is different (I suspect future production runs of the other Outlaw products will adopt the new logo) and there's no power button (similar to the ICBM in that regard), but otherwise it's the same Outlaw face plate as always.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I thought all the Outlaw stuff was a sort of semi-gloss powder coat looking black stuff, yes? Is anything they make not black?

My 950 is a slightly lighter shade of black than the black anodized finish on my Sony gear. It actually looks like a _very_ dark grey to me.

From the picture I have seen the 200 looks black to me vs the dark grey for the 950/770/750.

As Pat mentioned earlier, it is difficult to judge by picture alone (especially some of the earlier pictures Outlaw has -- perhaps due to the methods used by their photographer). There was an old thread in the 1050 forum by someone who chose not to get a 1050 because he thought it was blue based on some pictures on Outlaw's site. When a friend bought one, he was startled to discover that it's actually somewhere between dark gray and black (not as pure black as some components in my rack, but really too dark to be quite gray if that makes sense). Looking at JasonA's 200 pictures (particularly the front and front detail pictures), it appears to be the same finish as the Outlaw faceplate I'm looking at right now (a Model 950). The finish on the aluminum can often catch ambient light a lot when photographed and make the face look lighter than it really is.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Well if you check this PDF owners manual here it sure looks black. http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/200manual.pdf
but here http://andreasen.8m.com/Gargantusub/Gargantusub_amp.html
the finish the same as the old product, dark grey.

My 1050 is black. It does have a sort of plastic-ish or powder coat sort of specular reflection going on, and it's not 100% black (nothing is, after all) but if I ask anyone who walks up to it what color it is, they'd look at me funny and say "black?" without hesitation.

Good aesthetic design is not expensive.

To say you must add "a thousand dollars" to look like a Krell or Mark Levinson is ridiculous. No one is intending or even suggesting that you match their choice in materials or form factor - just their design execution.

You give very little credit to Outlaw when on the one hand they can "hang with the best" in terms of performance at 1/10 the cost - but seem "stumped" or "Rain Man-esque" when it comes to designing a product on a budget.

The new Rotel 1066 is (opinion alert!) by far more elegant... Audio Refinement seems to do very well with little - heck, no one will accuse Parasound of being outside the reach of current and future Outlaws customers - and they can build and design the Halo "A" Series.

I think the point of this thread is to assess and evaluate the visual statement that Outlaw is making with the 950. And, IMHO, I think that they can do better - much better. As I said before, and this is a qualified statement, Aesthetics do matter.

If you think they made a concsious decision and executed their overall plan flawlessly, and that the aesthetic look and feel was the height of that perfection, then say so.

This their first pre/pro - so feedback should be very much welcomed.

Imagine if the Rotel 1066 and the Outlaw 950 exterior were switched at birth - Outlaw 950's would come in your choice in Silver or Black and look three times it price. (the killer combo when performance and looks blend together to be three to five times its price.)

And people who owned Rotel 1066's would have bass issues, video bandwith issues, no tuners, pay double the price, and.... tada... have an "ugly duckling".

How could they even compete with Outlaw at this point?

One vote the 950's looks could be dramatically improved!


[This message has been edited by trancethereal (edited January 21, 2003).]

trancethereal - ditto
While I was reading your post I actually started to imagine the 950 in Rotel 1066 finish and boy, I got goose bumps.
Upgrading the aesthetic look should not add significantly to the overall cost. Come on Outlaw tell us what is holding you from upgrading your look.

The Outlaw company has worked hard to design and produce a class product in the 950. After stopping production to work on the hiss problem and others they have the lines running with the final edition. Now would be a good time to reintroduce the 950. Reinvent it with a total new face plate look. Combined with the clean clear sound that the final 950 has. A splash of new black paint, volume dial and power button and you have the next generation 950. Customers would be excited and waiting to get their hands on the latest and greatest 950. I know I would. Not for the clones price of 1600 but I would pay 1000 bucks for it.

My own two bits: I hadn't really thought much about the appearance before this thread was opened. My equipment is hidden from view in a solid cherry cabinet with solid wookd doors (fan-cooled from the back). A smallish upper section is hinged so the control equipment (DVD and 950) can be accessible for use of remotes. Only use the 950 for HT so light levels are usually pretty low when its visible.

Well, now that I've actually looked at it - personally, I like the design overall, with a couple of caveats.

(1) SURE would have been nice if they simply offered black or silver. ALL of my other equipment is silver / aluminium. Might have been a consideration before I built the current cabinet. If brushed aluminium needed to be an upgrade for a few bucks (which I doubt), I would have paid it.

(2) The power button: on the one hand, I like the fact that its the only control thats a different color, makes it easy to locate. On the other hand, the green that they chose has got to be the ugliest color I have ever seen on a control panel.

But what is more important to me is that it seems to be quite solidly built, and the front panel controls are clear and functional even if they won't win any fancy design awards. Rotel is a nicer-looking unit and probably the result of access to professional industrial-design talent which Outlaw seemingly didn't use. As a rough estimate I would pay a 10% premium, not to exceed $100, for superior aesthetics but would never choose aesthetics over quality.

Thing that I personally dislike the most in HT / stereo equipment design is oodles of knobs and buttons (which I rightly or wrongly, for the consumer as opposed to professional market, tend to equate with lower quality electronics) and the 950 is reasonably clean by that standard.

What I still haven't gotten used to with the 950 is that the volume control has no stops, I HATE it.

My M200's are very black. My 750 looks like a very dark grey next to the M200's and my other gear.

I think the Outlaw equipment (amplifiers) have some understated details. The 750 has that break on the front panel and a milled recess for the button. I don't have my 950 anymore, but I did not think it was inordinately ugly, no more than any other gear in my rack.

Outlaw should consider offering some silver finish to accomodate current trends. I had a silver colored brand x processor until my black one came in. The silver definitely had much higher spouse approval.

Frankly, I think you have to get pretty close to non-Outlaw gear to figure out who made it - the stuff all looks so much alike. That is not problem with Outlaw.

Yes, The 950/770/750 should all be available in silver.

Silver!? Yuck!

pat----

I was always fond of titanium with silver accents...

I guess my feelings are that, sure, the Outlaw stuff could look better, but IMO the topic is severly overstating the 'problem' - the stuff isn't really ugly IMO, just has room for work.

Add that to the secondary nature of cosmetics to me and that's pretty much my stance - I'd prefer a better looking unit, but looks alone won't be a deal maker or breaker. YMMV.

It is not an overstatement Charlie. If you read the discussion on the same topic on other forums such as AVS you will see that many more see this as a major issue.

They say opinions are like noses .....

Call me wierd but I like the original logo better. The green button could be black, but that really doesn't bother me either. Maybe it's a east coast / west coast thing. With the people out west not being bothered by the logo as much as the easterners.

TPS

This was originally posted by Trancethereal at AVS forum. I posted it here because I find it to be it an excellent take on this issue.

"Wouldn't it be weird if some people's opinion while different, are equally valid.... ooohhh some really transcendental thinking.

yea.. right! Hmmm... I am sure that in a beauty contest, you would be equally right if your choice was Roseanne Barr, or if you think the Pontiac Aztec is design nirvana, or even that short sleeve reversible suits are a designer's dream.

While opinions are just that (and everyone has one), it is undeniable that some seem to fall pretty wide on the bell curve...

Again - we all accept the impeccable performance and technical merits of the Outlaw product and are amazed when the price is factored. So no one is placing aesthetics above performance - because the performance is already there! We are merely suggesting that the looks *could and should* match its technical merits.

One point was already highlighted - which I assumed was obvious - that Outlaw is a direct to consumer product. Given this, looks become a bigger factor - as it is the first experience the user will have *before* making a purchase. There is no tactile experience to further draw the customer in...

Call it superficial - but it does matter and in Outlaw's case could be an "X" factor. It could be the difference between a sale and no sale. Judgments and perceptions can be influenced negatively very quickly.

This discussion seems to divide people into three groups:

Those who think looks have no bearing - so why show the product at all? Those that claim specs only matter - wouldn't need pictures. Can you imagine buying a product that you never saw? I am sure their opinion has little weighting.

Those that put the product behind a smoked entertainment center or tucked away in a media closet - aren't you being a little disingenuous participating in the discussion - cause in the end - if it looked ten times better or worse, it would still be out of view. Again, this opinion would have little weighting.

That leaves the rest - those that desire or prefer a nice looking product or whom a nice looking product has an influence on their decision. (Again - we have already put to rest the decision based on functionality and performance!) These opinions will have greater weighting.

How many buyers or potential buyer fall in the third group? 60-80%??

And from Outlaw, the company's, perspective, if the increase in cost (if even necessary) yields higher sales, then it makes good business sense. No one has even factored what the percentage of "lost" sales are attributed to the product.

While I don't think the logo is bad - I do think the whole look and feel of the product leaves much to be desired.

It seems like there are lot who don't like the looks and little saying they can't imagine the looks could be improved upon.

If I was Outlaw, I would be concerned that my product has generated this much discussion (one way or another) on its look.

As I said before - Outlaw can hang with the best technically on a budget - so why is it so hard to design the aesthetics with the same verve?"



[This message has been edited by eskendir (edited January 22, 2003).]

Interesting. If you haven't looked, check out my HT page on my web site. You'll notice that my Outlaw Audio equipment is right out in the open, fully visible in both my dedicated HT and my living room listening set up. Since I happen to like the look of Outlaw Audio's equipment and am so strange as to not hide it, I guess I "fall pretty wide of the bell curve", eh?

It's one thing to disagree. It's another to say that anyone who doesn't agree with you is "wide of the bell curve". In fact, that strikes me as rather insulting.

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pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

You know, one comment those complaining about the logo often make is "how come so many are complaining and so few standing up for it?". It dawns on me that perhaps the two or three other people who like the logo (because based on all the complaining there can't be more than 3 or 4 of us who like it) have gotten tired of being told they don't know what looks good and that their opinions are wrong.

pat----

Well, FWIW I always thought the old logo was a bit cheesy, but I like the new one. Just one data point, and I'm used to being out at the end of the bell curve anyway (GDR)

Psklenar - Sorry if my comments seemed insulting... that wasn't my intentions.

However, before you get all teary-eyed, please re-read my post. We both agree we like the logo.

I respect your opinion that you *like* the looks. Out of curiosity, do you think they could be improved upon? What would you change differently?

Additionally, I am not sure you are appreciating the additional and unnecessary burden those who DO NOT like the looks have:

"That some how, we seem to put aesthetics over performance." So - if we don't like the way it looks, our opinion becomes discounted?

The thread could be more clinical with a vote option only - but that wouldn't be as much fun!

Soundhound sez: "All HT equipment should look like this"



6 of the above required for 5.1......

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 23, 2003).]

That thing makes "ugly" look good. Heck, it could even make the 950 look good.

Having hooked up a 950 (made in Malaysia), an ICBM (made in Taiwan) and a 775 (made in USA) the most glaringly obvious standout is that none of them cosmetically match !
I could even handle the ugly green button if they all had the same one!
The green bezels on the 950 & ICBM are different and all the faces are different shades of black.
One wonders if an attempt was even made to match these bad boys !

Having said this, I am an audiophile on a budget and appearance is definitely secondary to function. I cannot argue with the performance of the Oulaw gear, but 10 years ago I bought four of the white front Adcom units because Adcom met my price range to performance ratio, AND the white option looks way cool ! the dual red bezels line up, are the same color and brightness, and look very hip to boot.
I just moved the Adcom stuff out to make way for Outlaws gear and I do miss the look !

(They charged $100 extra per piece for white - but many paid it - Food for thought Outlaw) at least I think it was $100 !

[This message has been edited by Kiwi (edited February 04, 2003).]

See how much buzz the Halo line is getting! all over the home theater forums? I am sure at least the Outlaw 770 if not the 950 will perform nearly as good as the Halo line amps, especially in HT application,IMHO. I am waiting for the day the Outlaw products will be available in silver!!!!!!!!
Can u imagine an Outlaw in cool sexy crazy silver finish with blue LED? Hello Outlaw, Big Daddy r u listining? Hello, hello..... any date set for these beautiful optional finishes? Or is it just a wishful thinking? Hello, Outlaw, Big Daddy?????

As it's generally the squeaky wheel that gets the grease, I thought I'd weigh in here. For about a third to 50% more you can get similar equipment that pretty much meets most of the comments here's beautification standards. For the price point and quality compared to competition, this stuff looks great to me.

Some of you seem to miss the point. This thread is NOT ABOUT THE PERFORMANCE of the Outlaw products. Just about the look. We all know how good they are at their price point. We are just saying it is possible to have a nice look along with the top notch performance.

I agree eskendir. A little cosmetic touches, and you now have a whole new beast.

Wether or not people want to admit it, some people shy away from Outlaw because the gear just won't catch as many as eyes as would a peice that looks a little flashier.

I myself went thru this dilemna, and right now, some of my friends are doing just that. One is considering Rotel, not for just it's quality, but because it looks a lot better on a rack.

Noone can deny that a sharper looking product wouldnt sell better. Great looks WITH Outlaws legendary performance? There'd be no competition

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Play it LoUd!!

One guy who bought three Outlaw components was complaing because they don't even match - that is a VERY valid issue IMO.

I agree that their looks aren't the greatest. However, I bit the bullent and recently ordered a 950/7100 combo for the performance and value I knew I would be getting.

In person, I think the components look A LOT better than in any of the photos I've seen on the web or in magazines. Their looks still aren't world beating but I'm happy with them.

SpOoNmAn , that is exactly my point. Thanks

Allow me to take this topic a little further....

I do agree that the components, in person, look 100 times better then in any photo. I unwrapped my 200's and was impressed. I like the look of the Outlaw gear, its a rugged, no nonsense look. And while I would like flashier gear, it does appeal to me

Ive always had Pioneer Elite so I guess I'm to blame. Another point I'd like to make...

I believe that Outlaw is catering to a different kind of audiophile. The kind that does their homework on equipment and such. And they rely on that person being content with Outlaws performance, and swaying them with that alone.

So in the end, this tactic (if its what they did) has worked time and time again. I sit here, telling you all that I would love flashier gear, but will I stop buying Outlaw? Hell No

I hate to mention this, but how about offering 2 versions of the same unit? The current look, and a more appealing one? For an obvious price difference ofcourse. I know which one I'd snatch up Sorry for the rant.

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Play it LoUd!!

That's already the tactic - the flashier unit is called the AT P-2000 IIRC....

Write on Brother...

The Outlaw design philosophy is for the most part very representative of what it does... "Form follows function", and "Less is More" are the architectural descriptions of this aesthetic.

The design (in aggregate) is very elegant, in the same way that aircraft instrumentation or a divers watch has no spare decoration (or flashiness); it is all about the business of doing what it is supposed to do, as precisely and as simply as possible. Pilots, Divers and Audiophiles…

That being said, the industrial designers at Outlaw have made some choices that I believe are more a result of personal taste (unique designs that were developed early in the companies history) which are not consistent with their overall design philosophy. These include the Outlaw logo and green plastic power buttons, etc…

The Volume Knob on the 950 does not disturb me as much as it seems to affect others, but it too could be refined, possibly by adding weight. I have always liked the tactile feel of viscous damped controls, such as the throttle control on aircraft. Engine Speed (which affects thrust), like Volume, is something that is done with purpose, and should not be so delicate that it could be mistakenly altered, or over corrected.

My admiration for Outlaw and their designers is without reservation. They have done a great job. As a young company, it will refine its identity as time moves on. These small design wanderings are part of that maturation process. It could be done better, and given the talent demonstrated by Outlaw, I am confident it will.

The logo and plastic green button stuff does make me wish I was in the room when the "GO or NO GO" design decision was made, but it could have been much worse. It could have been flashy.

Very well said indeed AGAssarsson. I think we've covered all the bases within our last few posts, LOL.

Time will tell where they go from here, and unfortunately, I hate waiting. But who doesn't?

Like most things, I'm sure whatever turns up will be well worth the wait.


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Play it LoUd!!

For those of you who have the blessing of your significant other two bring this beast home, well all I can say is, I envy you! I for one who have to wait for a better looking design or till I visit the divorce court!!

Charlie - I am that guy, and I also have one of those spouses who hate all those boxes!
Although Outlaw has kept the prices of their gear down by outsourcing to Malaysia, Taiwan etc. I really think it would have been prudent to have all the products match cosmetically. How difficult would it have been to say "This is the Power button we wish you to use"!
I only have three products, but imagine a rack full of Outlaw with nine green buttons of differing flavors !!!!

Kiwi, You can always say you are a collector of Outlaw products.


[This message has been edited by eskendir (edited March 16, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by eskendir (edited March 16, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by eskendir (edited March 16, 2003).]

Here's a different spin on this: the 950 design reminds me of the HiFi gear made by Braun (yep, that's the makers of electric razors, alarm clocks etc.)in the 80's in Germany. Very similar, down to the green power button and the black face that can be described as black as the black levels of some plasma displays :-)
Anyways, Braun equipment was rated highly at the time and definitely not cheap and those components have become collectibles. So may be the 950 actually has a very expensive retro-style look that will make them collectibles in the future too!

Anyway, I don't think the 950's design is very attractive but I can live with it. It sounds pretty good to me and offers the features I want. May be one of these days I'll take a permanent marker and black out that power button . . . :-)

Unfortunately I haven't figured out how to include pictures in my post so you could see for yourself.

How Outlaw came to choose those green power button is what everybody wants to know!

Green = GO

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The Soundhound Theater

Ahhh, magic marker! I tried cutting a piece of electrical tape out, but never looked that great.

Does it really cost more than $100-$150 for both the 950 and 770 to have a decent(not flashy)finish, say like the clone Sherbourn? Does anybody have a thourgh knowledge in production that can shed some light here pls.

Just recieved my 950/7100 a week and a half ago and was aware of the looks criticisms before buying. As an ex-Mcintosh owner-- what a feast for the eyes!!-- I wasn't sure how my eyes would respond to this visual change. My eyes , when asked didn't mind it one bit (thanks eyes). After HEARING this new combo my ears thanked my eyes for their support. However, I was a tad bit worried when a friend of mine who is a current Mac owner would have a different opinion when he came over to see/hear the new system. Boy are both my eyes and ears happy-- he loved the sound and felt that it looked fine although very un-Macish. So now I know it's not just me.

By the way, both my nose and mouth informed me that they agreed with the ears , were happy that the eyes threw in their support and knew before the friend arrived that he would approve and were miffed that their opinion was unasked for.

And for those who read this, we (the above parts) ARE in therapy.

LOVE MY OUTLAW.

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Just recieved my 950/7100 a week and a half ago and was aware of the looks criticisms before buying. As an ex-Mcintosh owner-- what a feast for the eyes!!-- I wasn't sure how my eyes would respond to this visual change. My eyes , when asked didn't mind it one bit (thanks eyes). After HEARING this new combo my ears thanked my eyes for their support. However, I was a tad bit worried when a friend of mine who is a current Mac owner would have a different opinion when he came over to see/hear the new system. Boy are both my eyes and ears happy-- he loved the sound and felt that it looked fine although very un-Macish. So now I know it's not just me.

By the way, both my nose and mouth informed me that they agreed with the ears , were happy that the eyes threw in their support and knew before the friend arrived that he would approve and were miffed that their opinion was unasked for.

And for those who read this, we (the above parts) ARE in therapy.

LOVE MY OUTLAW.

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Isn't the smell that new equipment leaves in the room for a few days nice?

I care very little about aesthetics.. the 950 could have had jagged edges and been painted orange with pink highlights... or even for that matter just not had a case, and I still would have bought it for the performance......

Wish I had your kind of appetite for the Outlaw aesthetics!

“orange with pink highlights” Eek! two of my detested colors! On that my can of Krylon would come out!

“and was aware of the looks criticisms before buying” My eyes asked your eyes and agree. I was very worried about this one before receiving shipment, and much preferred more machined silver finishes.
As I posted once before (luck of the draw) I ended up with black faceplates across the board at the current time. Which I have grown to love, and was very displeased to only be able to purchase a ‘silver’ STB, which screwed up the whole effect. (it went back for now….decorating issue solved).

Currently my ‘rig’ spread on 6 racks (3 and 3) impresses and amazes the lay ears/eyes that come by ceaselessly. (and these lay people are always asking……”How, much did you spend on that!”) So I’d say the Outlaw is a perfect, as we say here, 10 footer). And it takes a back seat (as it should in my book) to the display which is stationed just above.

I stamped my foot on the volume knob here, and worried without (admitting it) about the looks. I was afraid if I brought up looks among audiophiles they’d tell me to go paint my nails or something!
I’m playing with these comments really, - because I know how much you (we all) admire machining, bulk, heft, design, weight, substance, shape, form, and quality.

For me it just became a non-issue in its physical reality once in the room.
Would be happy if Outlaw charges more to source higher-end cosmetics (for those it offends and to please a larger consumer base). If it helps to share the joy, I'm for it.

It was just better in person than I expected - For me, - the ears have it. (Tango is there room in therapy for one more?)

This thread is not about how the Outlaw sounds or performs but rather how it looks.

In that case, not withstanding sound and performance, the equipment looks great to me, green buttons and all.

P”oligize for dragging sound in, but thought Tango’s post was funny and reflected almost exactly my own purchasing experience. When I consider a buy, - it’s a ‘collection of factors’ as balanced against each other, which shall tip the scale towards a demo or not.

“I think it is time to change that ugly logo & cosmetics of Outlaw. Do you agree?”
A) It is an impossible task to please everyone, but is preferable to try to please the majority. (unless I’m in the minority. )
B) I thought the facade would be an issue for me pre purchase, this concern evaporated post purchase.
C) I am not against any cosmetic changes the Outlaws wish to apply, if prospective owners are consensual that a probable price bracket incremental increase would be an acceptable tradeoff, adding desired value to the purchase.

Always possible to make two different finishes and let the consumers choose which they want. Example Rotel, Anthem et al. finishes available, black and silver. How about such a choice of finishes with Outlaw?

Eskendir, If I know Outlaw they will respond (they do watch) although the wheels of production grind agonizingly slow. Maybe your suggestion of two finish choices or something more in line with the majority popularly rated ‘type’ look. (Although I would hate to have to figure out what that is). At Outlaw your never just spitting in the wind. From my prior contacts with them I think they are always listening and pondering.
Good luck!

Smart Little Lena,

Thank you, I do hope that Outlaw is watching!

....something simple that may help overall appearance would be a flatter volume knob.. maybe something similar to the way the Sunfire has a dial....

A silver finish option would be nice.

I agree. Plus I really don't know how anyone can say the AT faceplate looks better. Nonsense. This business about the Outlaw aesthetics is a little nuts.

[This message has been edited by minuteman (edited March 27, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by minuteman (edited March 28, 2003).]

Gots to remember: there are as many opinions about this as, well, ... owners of 950s!

I for one, would like an improved, higher "class" look. But it obviously didn't stop me from buying one...

Heck, all I think it would take is a black power button, the new Outlaw logo (hee, hee), and a black *metal* volume knob. The gray "gun-metal" finish is OK by me.

I second that Kevin. At the very least, Outlaw should change that green power button and of course the logo.

[This message has been edited by eskendir (edited March 28, 2003).]

I can even handle the green button - the other stuff I'm with Kevin.

Lena, there is ALWAYS room for more in therapy.

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I have never seen a piece of equipment or a car, or a piece of furniture that I was 100% in love with, look wise. That being said I definitely think the Outlaw could be a little classier looking. I don't care at all, since I own one, but it is weird that my parents 300 dollar Pioneer 711 looks ten times nicer than the Outlaw.

On the other hand I used to own a silver receiver and now that I have the 950 I would never go back to silver since it really stuck out way too much. Don't get me wrong I see the Silver Anthem (not a big fan of the polka dotted black and silver Rotel) and I drool, but if I put it in my rack it just sticks out like a sore thumb.

I guess official response from Outlaw to this issue, which has generated huge response, is out of the question. I am accustomed to AV123's of Rocket Loudspeakers incredible response to feedback and I was expecting the same from Outlaw. Outlaw, I might add, has been quick to respond to technical problems but I can't help thinking it's might have been b/c such issues are a definite product killer. Or is it really because the company is all about performance, nothing but performance? If they have been 100% customer oriented company they would have responded to whatever suggestion any of us might have. Still Outlaw has a great CS but it is not in the same league as AV123, Unfortunately.

Don't mean any disrespect to you, as your heart and soul is clearly in this issue. However, when you consider that some responses in this thread indicate they are satisfied with the looks and that you make up quite a few of the other responses, I would hardly call the response here to be overwhelming compared to the total population of 950 owners; and warranting of response from the Outlaws. I don't disagree with you that the looks can be improved upon. But, I keep coming back to the Outlaw business model: Bare bones, high performance and great value direct from the manufacturer. We all know the Sherbourne and AT clones are sonically the same prepros and they arguably look better than the 950. But, I for one do not want to pay what they want for that look and the right to buy from my friendly neighborhood HT store, who will not give me near the service over the long haul that the Outlaws have so far. Also, don't think for a minute that Peter Tribeman does not want there to be a clear differentiation between the AT and 950. He has the best of all worlds. He gets a decent profit on the 950s on a direct basis and then gets a little more profit on the ATs because people think the look means higher quality and that they can get better service from their local AT dealer. He's a genius. We should all be able to play both ends so well. Sorry, if it comes down to a black button and $500-700, I think I'll keep the money.