I thought I heard that Boston does a great job in the studio so I put it on. On "More Than A Feeling" I can pinpoint the percussion and vocals, but the lead guitar seems to be coming from across the whole soundstage.

Is this the way the mix was intended?

It could just be me and the ears are gone, although I did pass the hearing test I took a year ago...

An artistic decision, and sometimes the artists want to fatten up a particular instrument by putting it in both speakers with no specific imaging. It is also common to have Hammond B3 organs with the top of the spinning speaker in the cabinet on one side and the bottom on the other. Pinpoint imaging is not sought after in all instances, with all instuments.

Mr. Hound,

Thanks for the explanation. Just trying to make sure I was not too lame. There is so much I do not know about music and the music industry. Probably lots I don’t need or care to know about. I just enjoy the music. Also want to make sure the setup is correct. I feel much more confident I do not have something dreadfully wrong.

It was that the difference between 2-channel and the DVD-A was so significant, just needed to make sure I had my head screwed on straight.

Now I can impatiently wait on the new Outlaw processor, Model 850???, in 2-channel bliss.

JacketFan wrote: "The DVD-A mix that I heard tonight was seamless, except that too much was mixed into the side speakers. But the front soundstage was wide and very seamless."

I too find many DVD-A's play quite loudly in the rear/side speakers. At first I attributed it to a "learning curve" similar to the early days of stereo when sounds moved from side to side or other oddities. But could it be the "set-up" with the 950? I noticed a similar problem this evening listening to Roy Orbison's Black and White video DVD -- sounded much better when I moved significantly closer to the front speakers.

Any comments or observations would be welcome.

TIA,

Denny





[This message has been edited by raceone (edited January 02, 2003).]

Assuming you have matched all channel levels properly, most likely there is nothing wrong with your 950. Part of the problem lies in how we configure our rear speakers for HT (correctly) with a location directly to the side, or slightly behind,
the listening position, thus putting us closer to the rears than the fronts. Multichannel DVD-A and SACD's are mixed for a listening position located at an equal distance between the front and rear speakers. When you moved forward, you put yourself in a more ideal position for listening to MC music. Some of the Sony players (SACD) come with internal adjustments to optimize the balance between front and rears for MC music playback when your rear speakers are set up for HT playback requirements. Even so, I agree that some mixes are a little overly "aggressive" in the rear channels. It's still a fairly new technology that seems to be open to a wide variety of interpretations on how to use it.

Will…

You asked me to put up what I think are the recordings I find the “hole” in the mix. Hole is not the correct word, more like “smeared” from one speaker to the other.

The speakers are Diva 4.1s. Not the greatest, but certainly not Bose. Also have an SVS 20-39PCi sub. I still have the Denon 3802 I bought when I could not wait on the 950 any longer.

I have Boston’s “Greatest Hits”. Most of the track on this CD exhibit what I would consider a smearing of either vocal or guitars. Typically, the percussion and vocals are focused and I can place them at some point across the soundstage. But the guitars tend to come from both speakers. Since I am a novice, I was inquiring as to whether this observation is the way the music is mixed, the equipment/room or my ears. My only real contact with anyone who would know how the music should sound is via internet forums.

On Boston: “Higher Power”, “Piece of Mind” the guitar is across both speakers and smears across the soundstage. The vocal and percussion are localized. On “Cool the Engines” the cymbals are up towards the ceiling and the vocals are sometimes smeared across both speakers.

Trying to cover other music, Faith Hill’s “There You’ll Be”, there are two different mixes of “Breathe”. In the Tin Tin Out Radio Mix, the lead in guitar is pinpointed in the center, while the other has the guitar coming from both speakers and is not pinpointed. I am assuming that this is the way the music was mixed and what was intended.

With classical music I do not have this observation. I listened to Tchaikovsky, Beethoven and some John Williams. But for me, classical music does not need the instruments to be localized.

Some recordings seem to be better mixed and the instruments do localize: Diana Krall (I have this one for the cover), James Taylor’s greatest hits and Doobie Bros “What Were Once Vices”.

After the session I did learn something. I have a small sweet spot in my room for “critical” listening. It really is only 1 to 2 people wide. Especially for multichannel music.

Since I went this far I might as well go on…

I bought a Panasonic RP-82 mainly for the video capability. After I had it for a while, I decided to invest in some cheap interconnects and go ahead and buy some DVD-A music to take advantage of the DVD-A outputs.

I am up to 4 DVD-A discs so far.

Eagles – “Hotel California”
Deep Purple – “Machine Head”
Foreigner – “Foreigner 4”
Yes – “Fragile”

I suppose I consider myself a 2-channel guy. But this foray into DVD-A is very interesting.

After some multichannel listening, I have a new appreciation for this medium. I sure felt drawn into the music and really enjoyed the experience. My only complaint is the way certain instruments are mixed into the rear speakers. It is disconcerting to me to hear, for example, a guitar evenly playing out of the two rear speakers. It could just be my set up of direct radiating surrounds with one mounted up close to the ceiling or the recording. But it is distracting to me.

I listed the 4 in order of preference, with the Eagles the most “rear distracting”. In the “Hotel California” track there are wonderful lead in effects only to be interrupted by a misplaced guitar in the left rear. Or “Life in the Fast Lane”, there seems to be misplaced guitars in the L & R surrounds in the opening, then the instruments seem to place themselves nicely. The track of “Wasted Time (Reprise)” could be the best with some room filling strings and fabulous bass from cellos. It just seemed to me that the rears get too much action, especially with the guitars.

Deep Purple was another example for me for music I have heard on 8-track, cassette and CD. I got the feeling that the mix was from the perspective of the listener being the drummer. Especially in “Space Truckin’”. There were a couple of videos. Long hair and silk shirts! Far out!

Foreigner 4 was great fun. The surrounds seemed more integrated and the instruments well placed. “Juke Box Hero” had a mix where the bass moved around the room! Fantastic effect and it seemed natural. I listened to that cut several times. Normally I don’t like effects like that, but it really blew me away.

“Fragile” was fun as well. In “Roundabout” there is a nice organ effect and the vocals blend into the surrounds. The cut “Canes & Brahams” was nothing but fun. This could be a great test for your speakers.

Other than what seems to me to be misplaced guitars, multichannel music has been a real hoot.

Thanks for letting me ramble...


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No matter where you go, there you are.

mj

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jacket:
first off...excellent post. the guitar player for boston (i forget his name) was an endless tweaker who was eventually fired (or quit, depending on who you ask) because he delayed the releases of the records for ages, while he layered and re-mixed his guitar work.

i think it was worth the effort on the first disc. some of the best git work in rock music. just my opinion. nevrtheless, his guitars are many, many layers of tracks and effects, placed all over the map. no doubt, this is the reason for your observations.

without knowing anything about mixing techniques, you sure have a better than average ear. dvd-a/sacd multichannel is new to records and will take a lot of experimentation on the part of artists and producers and gear makers. some are superb...some are not...some downright stink.

time will show the improvements and who is who in the genre.

i enjoyed reading your post. very well written and easy to follow.

the sony people told me at CES that they hope for sacd to "peacefully co-exist with dvd-a". i hope it's true. i love multichannel hi-rez and the possibilities it offers and like hearing other's thoughts on the subject, so...ramble on!

was his name Tom Scholtz?

Jacket, I really love your taste in music

Bosso, Willscary - you are too kind.

After reading all of the experts posting here on the Outlaw forum over the past year, I did start to wonder about all of the terms like “pinpoint imaging”, “wide soundstage” etc…

All I knew is what I have heard over the years and what I hear now. Unlike many of you on this forum, I have no experience in music. So I am just trying to get a handle on what is supposed to be heard.

I do not have the “ear” that ya’ll have, so I am just trying to learn and enjoy.

Odd thought for the day -----------------

The cost of a 950 may pale in comparison to getting a large library of multi channel music!

(I know I have more in DVDs than the cost of a 950)