A few items. My harry potter cos doesn't have a dts layer, as suggested by outlaw. Is mine different? Note to outlaw: reopen the potter thread. that's been the best source of information, and I suspect it will be needed more as time goes by. (I'm sick of surprises when my kids rent dvds.)Also, the "appalling" thing about the 1050 decoding issue is that it doesn't do what it was billed to do when I bought it in March. I never asked anything of outlaw other than information to help me guage the extent of my need for a player with onboard decoding make up for the 1050s shortcoming.

This problem with certain DVD's is really no ones fault. You mention the 1050 "decoding Issues" but we could also blame the DVD company for installing a sound track not playable by every receiver, or mabe we go back and scold Dolby for inventing 5.1 EX. How can OUTLAW be responsiable for the fact thier 1050 design of 4 or 5 years ago doesnt match todays latest technology? I recently read a small article that states DVD's are going to high def. video in a couple of years so all current DVD players may be useless. Who is at fault then? I know it a pain not hearing Harry Potter in all its glory but out of a 100 or so DVD's Ive played only 2 had a problem. when its all said and done, thats just the way it is.

e-dogg: First, as I read DRW's note, he is looking for a FAQ that honestly describes the problems and the workarounds if any. Something better and more accurate than what I put together in the original HP-COS thread. Frankly, I don't think that is asking too much of what is likely to be an on-going and and probably increasing problem. I should point out that he is looking at a potential solution that might cost him more than the 1050 did originally.

As for fault, I might agree with your argument more if I had purchased the 1050 4 or 5 years ago. The more relevant issue is what about people who purchased the 1050 much more recently (after Outlaw became aware of the problem)? If this was disclosed and they purchased the product then great, they shouldn't have expectations that it will work 100% of the time. I said I was appalled because I couldn't (still can't) find this disclosure in the FAQ or anything else that I could find outside of the one thread.

Personally, I think the problem lies in Outlaws attempt to push the envelope for its customers. To give us more for less, in this case 6.1. For those of us with 6 speakers, the solution still works and the value is still there. For those with only 5 speakers, its still there (as you correctly point out) maybe 99.99% of the time. However, that doesn't cut it when the family is trying to watch HP-COS, the LOTR-TTT or some other 5.1 EX DVDs with problems and you have to debug on the fly.

73Bruin: Well I guess its on me now. I rented T2 Extreme edition last night and all the above problems hit my 1050. First I had the sound dropouts, so I switched to rear center on. But I noticed the DVD was forcing my 1050 to go to dolby surround 6.1 I also ony have 5 speakers so I was losing rear surround information. I must admit I still thought the the movie sounded good but, I wondered what I might be missing. Your point about an increasing problem is a good one. I never stopped to think perhaps all DVD's may go to this type of soundtrack which would leave us all in a bind. My apoligies for being a smart-a--.

e-dogg: No appologies required. I certainly did not take offense.

By the way, I am hoping that Outlaw will take the high road here and help us by posting workarounds. For example could innovative wiring help? Some solutions I might be curious about include the following:

1) For those willing to permanently forgo 6.1 playback and willing to pay for downgrading their box to 5.1, a way to modify the 1050 to send the Rear CS preout to each of the 5.1 rear channels amps, thereby restoring much if not all of the lost signal. Obviously this might void any warranty and have some other hiccups as well but I have to believe this is possible. If Outlaw could work with its 950 owners to do upgrades including publishing upgrade instructions and identifying shops that could do the modifications (again at the owner's expense), surely they could do this for the 1050. My point is that this could be a lot cheaper than buying a DVD player with 5.1 output capability and the extra cables to connect that player to the 1050.

2) For those who want to keep 6.1 as a future option, a way to wire the 1050 externally so that the Rear CS speaker out gets connected to both the rear channel surround speakers along with their own input. On the surface this could be done with three y connectors, one to split the Rear center signal and two to join the split signal with the rears. I am not an electrical engineer so I have no idea if this carries any negatives with it.

Finally, if Outlaw knows that all of the workarounds that have been suggested to date will are subject to possible failure (as JasonJ posted he was experiencing with his 6 speaker configuration last September), please let us know now.

[This message has been edited by 73Bruin (edited November 04, 2003).]

I have been anxiously watching these threads wondering when I was going to get hit by the problem. Now I have. The new Finding Nemo disc has the issue and it can't be solved with DTS since it does not have a DTS track and the disc is forcing the 1050 into 6.1 mode.

My room doesn't fit a rear center speaker since my surrounds are on the sides of my couch and it's against the wall. So not only do I need to invest in a 6th $1000 speaker but I also need to buy a new house. My 1050 is less than 1 year old and I have little choice but to replace it if I don't find a workable solution.

I have little choice but to replace it if I don't find a workable solution

I like 73Bruin idea of connecting the rear center to my surrounds somehow. To bad you cant switch to Phamtom mode and have the 1050 redirect the surround information to the left and right surronds like it does for the front center to the mains.

Well...now this is back to me. Time for an update:

I wrote Outlaw Tech Support about the problem I was experiencing with these DVDs. They replied back to me by phone the day after I wrote the email. They supplied a fix that worked to correct my issue.

To review: I have the 1050 in a 6 channel set-up. When these certain DVDs were "kicking" my 1050 into the "6.1 Surround" mode, I would lose most of the content in my surrounds. Outlaw's fix for this was to put my 1050 into "6.1 Surround" mode before even attempting to play the problem discs. This way, the 1050 would lock in this mode before the flag on the disc had the opportunity to switch the modes on the 1050. I tried this fix and it worked to fix my problem.

For those with only five speakers, the workaround as I know it seems to be this:

1) Enable the sixth channel. (Set the Center Surround speaker to "ON")
2) Lock your 1050 into "6.1 Surround" mode before starting the disc.
3) Play disc.

I'm unsure exactly how much content you lose to the center channel. I'm sure it's some but I can't imagine it being that much.

Getting back to my experience, Outlaw tech support is great. If you're experiencing any problems that the forum can't seem to answer, please contact them directly. They really do care about each and every one of their customers.

Side note: In my note to Outlaw, I did say that I was concerned about the "Finding Nemo" disc as I saw it was DD EX. Interesting...

Woah. Let me make sure I understood what you did, as I've been watching this whole process for a while now. By enabling "6.1 Surround" before starting to play the movie, you can turn it off while the movie is playing and it won't try to re-enable 6.1 Surround?

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

No...sorry to confuse.

You have to keep it in "6.1 Surround" mode for the whole thing. Hopefully, the flags don't kick it back to 5.1 mode. As I tried to say, I don't know exactly what this means for you if you only have 5 speakers.

Hope this helps...

Jason,

So it behaves differently if I put the 1050 into 6.1 mode vs. if I let it put itself into 6.1 mode. So even adding a 6th channel does not fix this bug. You have to remember to put the unit into the correct mode before you play the disc. Do I have that right ?

Finding Nemo has the same problem. What exactly is 5.1EX Why does it effect the 1050 like this?

e-dogg: Dolby 5.1EX is an encoding method for including what represents a rear center channel in the otherwise discrete rear surround channels. Thus a 5.1 signal actually carries the information that enables a 6.1 (or 7.1 since DD 7.1 at this point sends the same information to both rear center speakers).

JasonJ: It is my understanding (which could easily be wrong) that when the 5.1 signal is converted to 6.1, the source material that is extracted for the rear center(s) is then subtracted from the rear surrounds. Consequently this represents a 100% loss of that signal. Furthermore the volume level of the rear surrounds is reduced by 3 DB. Consequently, the option of playing back an DD 5.1EX in 6.1 mode without a rear center channel speaker(s) can result in a significant amount of signal loss depending upon what was being sent to that channel and will result in a overall reduction in rear presence due to the 3db volume drop.

All: I hope some of the discussion here points to why a Outlaw directed FAQ is highly desirable. They more than any of us should have the correct answers.

That seems to be my understanding of the issue. Adding a sixth channel works if you put the receiver into "6.1 Surround" mode before playing the disc.

The bug is from a different code for the DD EX flag on the DVDs. It's not a mistake on Outlaw's part. They used the code they had at the time for the sixth channel. Since that point, Dolby has changed the code.

I don't think this is quite right. It's my understanding that a DD EX encoded soundtrack has 6 discrete channels plus a subwoofer, thus making it 6.1 surround sound. To me that would mean the information that is going to the center surround, while related to the other surrounds, is from its own source. It's not information that is culled from the other surround channels. Of course, I could be completely wrong. For more info on this, some research at dolby.com might be in order.

This raises a question in my mind. How did you measure that 3dB drop in volume in the surrounds? Is that how much you have to turn up the 1050 to compensate for the surrounds? Just curious...

Dolby EX is a matrixed format -- the surround back channel is encoded in the two surround channels, just like Pro Logic uses the left and right channels to carry the center and mono surround signals. There is not a discrete surround back signal in Dolby EX. While we're on the subject, DTS-ES Discrete does have a separate channel in the digital track, but DTS-ES Matrix (the more common version) uses matrixing to carry the surround back channel (the digital data is 5.1 discrete channels, just like Dolby EX).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gonk:
[B]Dolby EX is a matrixed format. There is not a discrete surround back signal in Dolby EX.

Does that mean with the rear center turned on, but not having a rear center speaker,in the EX format we are not losing any sound information.

I spoke with Scott today and he confirmed that we don't have any options here that the outlaws can suggest other than ignoring the lost data from the rear center channel. At frist he suggested that I play the disc in PCM mode. I wouldn't want to do this because pro-logic doesn't compare to DD but ironicly I went into the setup of the disc and you can't even select the audio track. The disc automatically forces the outlaw into Dolby EX 6.1 mode no matter what I do. So I have no choice but to ignore the data that is lost in the center channel.

I really appreciate the level of service that Outlaw provides. Scott returned my call as Steve promised. Unfortunately there seems to be nothing that the outlaws can do this time.

The Outlaws really have to add this to the FAQ. It seems many new discs are arriving with this problem and it will not go away on the forum if it is not added to the FAQ. I feel cheated enough having bought the 1050 less than a year ago and not feeling the need to replace it. I don't think it is fair to potential new customers to not make this problem clear. I realize that most companies would cover a problem like this up but I would not expect that from the Outlaws.

Finally, I am not able to find a difference if I place the device into 6.1 mode myself or if I let it force me into 6.1 mode. So I don't understand Jason's instructions to put the 1050 into 6.1 mode before starting the disc.

That could be a quirk with my 1050. I was thinking it worked for me because it ignores the flags that are causing all of the trouble. Remember also that I a sixth channel present.

Sorry to confuse...

Desperado and 73bruin,
Thanks for your persistence in gaining and sharing the flag info. I didn't do as well contacting customer service through email rather than telephone.
Desperado, I would think you can always get the PCM signal by hooking the analog output of your DVD player to an unused audio input on the 1050. It's OK to run, say, an anolog output and a digital output from a single source into the receiver. That way, on a problem disc, you could switch to the analog source, and then use the prologic. It doesn't solve the problem but I wanted to make sure you know you have that fallback, provided your dvd player has an analog audio output, as most do.

drw, that is a good point, I can connect the DVD player to an unused audio input. However I have to beleive I will lose more listening to PCM than if I listen in 6.1 mode with no center speaker.

I think I can live with the issue. I may even add a 6th speaker. I don't really have a good position for it but at least I will hear whatever is sent to that speaker. I am very interested in seeing how the outlaws wind up handling this issue.

Hi Folks,

I am thinking about buying a 1050. I had a Yamaha HTR5460, which I never liked the sound of and had enough problems with that Yamaha has finally agreed to exchange for an HTR5660 (I don't have it yet, and I am thinking of selling it before I open it!) The new one has 6.1 and supports EX. I, like someone previous, have the "couch against the wall" scenario and I really don't feel like springing for another speaker. I am not that big of an HT guy to feel 6.1 is going to make me happier than 5.1. I spend most time listening to music, but like the 5.1 when I do watch DVDs. Outlaw was recommended and I was excited because it didn't appear I would be paying for a bunch of stuff I didn't need. I was going to get great music and Dolby Digital 5.1, smooth sailing away! Now all this stuff has me freaked! I am unhappy that Yamaha is forcing me into 6.1 with the unit they are sending me. For all I know, I am going to be screwed trying to use it for 5.1 also. Does hooking up a 6th speaker really cure all these problems? If I am forced to get a 6th speaker, it will be stuffed behind the couch where it won't do me any good anyway! These companies that keep upping the "number of speakers" ante must have stock in the speaker companies! Am I really forced to have a 6th just to use any of these new units?

Well, we have our answer. Outlaw is not going to make the 1050 anymore. Thier new receiver will be out mid-2004 I think he said. The king is dead...long live the king.

With all due respect to the sponsors & participants of this board, I think that all of you are giving an unwarranted "pass" to Outlaw.

The fact that the 1050 cannot be properly used with MANY DVD's is a problem that they should address -- either by replacement, offering a refund, or whatever. It's a real stretch to blame it on Dolby or on the DVD manufacturers when the 1050 is the only receiver (that I know of) with this problem.

Outlaw is the only manufacturer that I've run into that would stick its customers with this problem. I've consistently received much more satisfactory responses to problems from other manufacturers of consumer products -- even in product categories with much lower margins than Outlaw's.

I, for one, am disappointed with the 1050 defect & (more importantly) Outlaw's CHOICE not to step up to make things right.

Thanks for listening.
BB


[This message has been edited by bb80301 (edited November 20, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by bb80301 (edited November 20, 2003).]

Here's a link to the Dolby website that lists exactly which DVDs include the flag for DD EX.

www.dolby.com/movies/films_previous.html

Out of all the titles out there, it's really not that many. Of course, EX is getting more popular so more DVDs will be released with that encoding, but by then a new Outlaw receiver should be out.

[QUOTE]
I, for one, am disappointed with the 1050 defect & (more importantly) Outlaw's CHOICE not to step up to make things right.

Does anyone know what has to be done to the 1050 to make it work right? If its not to severe maybe we could split the cost with Outlaw.

Having worked with mass-market electronics for several years now, I think your expectations are a little much from a piece at this price point. None of the brands I carry at work have attempted to correct their defects of a similar nature in this price bracket. (Sony, Onkyo, Integra, JVC, Kenwood, Pioneer, Pioneer Elite, Yamaha). Yet, these guys sell millions of units annually and have huge pockets. Perhaps one should take a minute and realize that as with all digital technologies, things are prone to change very rapidly. These are unfortunate circumstances and although they are irritating, comparing the number of titles on which the conflicting surround tag exists, to the number of titles where the 1050's sound quality will knock the socks off of anything in its price class seems to lend itself to a nod towards the 1050.

Embries: What other vendors equipment is having this problem? I know my cousins 5 year old Yamaha certainly isn't. I tried searching google for any hint of a problem but couldn't find a single example (other than posts about Onkyo on this board). I also checked other boards like home theater spot and came up empty.

There are other designs for pre/pros that have used a similar decoding chip and are having the same problem. I know that Onkyos this year are having issues decoding some movies, there are sound dropouts, and format oscillations. Similarly the JVC units will not process 6.1 even though it's clearly stated on the front of the unit.

I just ran into the audio dropouts problem this morning (TTT extended edition). I am, suffice it to say, less than happy.

I have to agree with some of the complaints on this thread. While it may well not be Outlaw's "fault" that this problem exists, it certainly isn't my "fault" that I have to upgrade a product that I bought less than six months ago, which was then being advertised as up-to-date.

This is especially true since I have alreadly had to send one 1050 back due to an unrelated problem. But I was quite happy with the way Outlaw addressed that issue, which built a lot of credibility with me. I think this is a good company dealing with a bad situation. But it is unsurprising that recent 1050 purchasers like myself are a bit bitter.

I will say that I think the trade-in offer they have on the 1050 is an exceptionally good deal for anyone who has had the unit for a while -- but for someone like me, who has had the 1050 for only a few months, I'm still going to be worse off to the tune of a few hundred bucks. I'm considering doing it anyway, because I liked the 1050 a lot. Not a good situation though.

I realize that the problem is a pain, but I can offer some good news -- Two Towers Extended Edition does include a DTS track, which is not affected by the issue.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Yeah, I saw that, but it says it's DTS 6.1. I'm running only 5 speakers, so I am assuming there is some loss in the rear soundfield. I am not tech-savvy enough to know whether or not this is correct.

In any event, thanks for the quick reply.

The DTS track includes the option for a sixth channel, but it can also be handled by DTS 5.1 decoders without losing anything.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Cool. Thanks for the tip, I did not know that. ;-p