In another posting, someone mentioned that The Perfect Vision was the "major magazine" that would have a 950 review, as alluded to in the last newsletter.

The contents of the current TPV issue at http://www.theperfectvision.com/current.html doesn't include any mention of the 950.

Is it either 1) another magazine or 2) the January issue of TPV, not the December issue?

The *next* edition. Was actually supposed to be in the current issue, but they were running late. If you look in the *prior* issue to the current one, they mention it. If all that makes sense...

Thanks, Kevin...

I looked with interest at my newest Stereophile Guide to Home Theater, but didn't find it there.

Thought it was interesting that they gave a 'product of the year' type award to the Rotel 1066 pre/pro. Wonder who would have received that had they reviewed the 950 during the year...

Anybody know if Perfect Vision is reviewing the Soundhound hiss fixed version of the 950, which is not yet available for sale although a pre/production unit or two were being shipped around for evaluation in recent months?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 11, 2002).]

Will- I'm guessing it's rev 2 that's currently shipping. The review was almost ready for the current issue, but didn't make it. Reviews are written 2 months-ish before the print mag comes out?

Maybe one way to know whether the currently shipping model or a SH hiss-fixed prototype is being reviewed, is to look at the S/N numbers. The wait is almost over. According to The Perfect Vision web site teaser, The Perfect Vision's January/February 2003 issue will say:

- Sony's DVP-NS999ES DVD/CD/SACD Player raises the bar on video performance-and throws in multichannel SACD to boot. An early contender for Product of the Year.

- Onkyo's TX-SR700 A/V Receiver boasts a feature set and performance levels that would have cost twice as much a year ago, Onkyo has another hit with this mid-priced AVR.

- RCA's Scenium HD61W140 61" Widescreen Rear-Projection Television has it all: HDTV tuner, great picture, lots of features, and a virtually future-proof array of connectors.

and

. . . .(drumroll, please)

- Those Internet-direct outlaws at Outlaw Audio have two winners in their new 7.1-channel controller and amplifier combo.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 18, 2002).]

I downloaded the article today. It's a good read. I wish I could post it!

harp795...

And chance of you typing out the Outlaw related review?!??! It would be much appreciated and it could be your Christmas gift to a soon to be Outlaw who is reading all he can b4 his purchase of the combo


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Play it LoUd!!

Maybe the Outlaws will make it available in the "Reviews" section in the next few days-- I'm sure they have a copy . Be a nice Christmas gift, as you said spoonman!

It downloaded as a adobe acrobat read only file, so I can't cut and paste. I have it saved on my computer as a 5MB file. Any suggestions on how to upload it? I could fax the outlaw pages to someone and they could scan it in and post it somewhere? Thoughts?

Does it say really, really good stuff about the 950???

Anybody know when this issue will be available on the magazine rack?

The reviewer comments are very positive. He also pairs the 950 with the 770 and compares it to his reference Balanced Audio Technology amplifier. He mentions "when paired with my reference BAT VK-6200 the sound was warm, a bit laid-back, relatively spacious, decent if not super-detailed with pleasant overall balance" "If you audition the 950 at home, make certain that the bypass switch is engaged." "The differences in presence, tonal and textural makeup, image focus and dynamic contrast are quite large when compared to the digitally processed sound" "My reservation concerns a discrepancy in the transitional area from the upper midrange to the high frequencies, where I noted a consistent, if not gross, edginess. "Keep in mind that this was with Martin Logan's very revealing Aeon speakers" "It was immediately evident that the edginess I noticed with the Model 950 vanished when it was teamed with the Outlaw Model 770." Whether this was due to product synergy, the BAT amp's higher resolution or both, I can't say. But when you consider that manufacturers typically design pieces of their gear to be used together, it makes sense that the two Outlaw items would blossom in each other's company. I didn't just hear a smoother upper range with the Outlaw pair, but tighter focus, a greater sense of dynamic ebb and flow, and a more expressive, and hence involving, presentation. With these outlaws, the widest dynamics are not as dramatically renedered as they are with the very best, but they remain far better than I've heard with comparably priced separates and A/V receivers"

This is just a few issues I pulled from the article. I'll be interested in everyone's comments surrounding the reviewers preference for bypass mode vs. digital. Seems to me it is more an issue of the reviewers reference CD players (Arcam DVD player, BAT vkd5 CD player) having better DAC's than the Outlaw. When you use optical in, the Outlaw DAC's do the work, when you use bypass, the players DAC's do the work, right??

harp...

"When you use optical in, the Outlaw DAC's do the work, when you use bypass, the players DAC's do the work, right??"

I would tend to agree. Logically, that sounds correct. Thanks for typing some of it out. Sounds like the combo comes highly recommended indeed This will make waiting a couple weeks even harder though..hahaha


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Play it LoUd!!

You are correct about the analog bypass vs. digital input. Considering the sticker on his reference sources, it would make sense for him to go ahead and use the expensive DACs that he paid for. Personally, I tried my player both ways and settled on digital connection, but my Yamaha CD changer isn't really in the same league as a BAT player.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I came to the same conclusion with my Toshiba SD-4700 DVD/CD/DVD-Audio player. Even though the Toshiba has 24/192 DAC's, the digital connection sounded better to me. When I use the analog out for DVD-audio, the analog connections sound much better than the (downrezed)digital connection.

I'm still trying to decide whether to change from my Parasound amp to the Outlaw 755. Decisions, Decisions.

Parasound amps kick ass..which do you have? My friend has the HCA-1205A and wow does it kick some serious ass.

I was comtemplating on getting the HCA-2205AT but it doesnt have 7 channels


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Play it LoUd!!

I havent heard the Outlaw, but am familar with the Parasound, a nice sounding mellow amp and a good value as well. But, if the Outlaw is made, as I have heard, by ATI,and sound as good as ATI, I would, without hesitation, take this in a heartbeat. ATI makes a quality amp that has been compared to the workmanship of a Proceed amp. It has an incredible soundstage and great detail; it is borderline bright. So, with some speakers , it may not be your best chose. In which case, a Parasound would do better for you. But, if you dont have bright speakers and Outlaw has that same sound quality that ATI delivers, I would go with Outlaw. An audition would be good to compare!!

Regarding that borderline bright amp -- The 950 pre/pro is also borderline bright. Some people say that means the 950 is "very accurate." But nobody is saying the 950 pre/pro is borderline mellow or borderline warm.

I guess TPV didn't experience the "hiss" issue...

Anyone know if that issue is on newstands yet?

Will,

I would have to agree that after the 950 burns in it doesn't really have a brightness problem. But if coupled with other electronics that have a tendancy towards the bright or strident, the 950 wouldn't help matters.

My only sonic complaints of the 950 for HT would be that it could be more detailed and coherent, but of course those are adjectives usually reserved for the expensive stuff.

It could also use improvement in the 2 channel area, but that's easily cured with the addition of a 2 channel passive pre. And for those coming over from the receiver world, I could see where they could be pleased enough with 2 channel performance as it is.

I and many other find the 950 somewhat bright and forward, although not excessively.

But if as Soundhound says, the hiss fixed 950 does not have quite the same 950 "signature" sound the earlier 950's had, and also since I believe the hiss in the earlier 950's may have contributed to the tendency to the brightness, and the new ones won't hiss as much, it's possible the new 950 may be less bright and forward, than the current version, and may be by comparison, slightly warmer.

This is speculation. But I briefly had a pre red-dot one-off of the 950. The one-off hissed a little less than the red dot and also to my ears at least, sounded a tiny bit warmer than the red dot 950.

Will:

The new 950 is the only revision (unless I'm mistaken) that uses entirely new op-amps in some key stages. The parts have been massively upgraded to ones generally used in pro-audio equipment. This will make a difference in the sound, for the better.

The presence of hiss does in certain instances give the impression of more 'high end'. This was a real problem in the days when Dolby noise reduction was first introduced to the recording industry. Many people thought the high frequencies sounded muffled, but in fact it was just the absence of tape hiss that gave the impression of less high frequencies.

As I wrote on another thread, I would be very curious to hear your impressions when you get your replacement 950.


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 21, 2002).]

I would like the see the full reveiw. I'm going to see if I can find a copy tomorrow. I've also done some comparisons using the analog and coax digital outputs of my Rega Planet 2000. The difference between the two were drastic, but I'm not sure which I liked better. The Rega is a highly regarded CDP, but in my system (main speakers are PSB Stratus Gold i's), it's just too laid back. My speakers have this same characteristic so it's too much. Something a little more analytical and detailed works good with my speakers. I've got the 2000 sold and am looking at my options. I've been kicking around the idea of getting the new Sony DVD-999ES, but on the other hand I was wondering if it would be worth it? My other option is to get a cheaper deck and use the DAC's in the 950, what do you guys think? BTW, the 950/755 combo certainly doesn't sound bright in my set-up. In comparison with other components I've used I would have the say these are very accurate.

Jack Dotson,

I imagine the sound you get from the digital outs of your existing player should be similar to what you'll hear by swapping some other player (a cheaper deck you're considering) for what you have today, as long as you are using the same digital cabling, connected to the same 950/770. However, some people say there are differences in different players with bit timing/clocking of the digital output signals, but I don't know if it's a big deal at least I'm not sure I've personally ever heard a difference in the digital outs, with modern DVD players. But maybe I have a tin ear.

I have PSB Stratus Silvers for my surround channels. To my ears, Stratus Silvers are almost but not quite as warm as your Stratus Gold i's. However the difference in warmth is not great. Admittedly, some would say the Silvers are warm sounding speakers, and I would not disagree.

My mains are not made by PSB. My mains are brighter than even my Silvers, but only slightly. Admittedly my mains are noticably brighter than your Stratus Gold i's. My mains are not considered bright speakers however.

When played through my mains, I think the 950 is slightly bright.

Anyway, one reason I look forward to hearing the new 950 is it may be warmer than the current 950.

But since in your case you want to brighten your sound, you may want to try different interconnects between your 950 and 770. Or try different speaker cables between your 770 and PSB Stratus Gold i.

Good luck!

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 28, 2002).]

Picked up a copy of TPV at Borders today and read the 950 review. The reviewer's overall opinion (for the 950 and 770 combination) might be summed up in the following quote taken from the review: "With these Outlaws, the widest dynamics are not as dramatically rendered as they are with the very best, but they remain far better than I've heard with comparibly priced separates and A/V receivers". He goes on to describe his listening experience in one word; "beautiful". Interestingly, he found the 950's character to have a "warm disposition". (I would tend to agree in that I have never felt my 950/770 in my system is "bright" in character). Overall a very positive review. Those 950's and 755/770's are probably flying out the door now!

Do most products reviewed in TPV get positive reviews?

Only Outlaw products

No. As a dude Lee Scoggins put it over on HTF, TPV "trashed" the SACD quality of the Pioneer DV-47a.

Maybe that's why they upgraded the DACs in it (the 47ai)...

But in general, they do seem to go out of their way to review a component as to its price.

I picked up TPV from my local bookstore last night and the review is very complimentary. Nice to read.

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Philip Hamm

I thought the Perfect Vision review sounded less like an objective product evaluation and more like gratuitous flattery in an attempt to woo for more advertising dollars. I, personally, would have preferred some actual measurements, and perhaps a list of "high points" and "low points." Something with some substance, not an attempt at audiophile poetry and "mental masturbation."

For example, the reviewer wrote, "I didn't just hear a smoother upper range, but... a greater sense of dynamic ebb and flow, and a more expressive, and hence involving, presentation." For a moment, I thought I was attending a wine and cheese party at a local art gallery. Of course, I'm not much of an audiophile, so maybe you other guys appreciated this review more than I.

There seems to be a growing trend in AV magazines to move away from what little objectivity they once had in an effort to cater to advertising dollars. Sound and Vision recently decided against providing measurements of Sony's new DA4ES receiver with all channels driven, since Sony "didn't design it to perform that way"?!?

You're right IMO, and figuring out why is left, as they say, as an exercise for the reader.

That's why I think it's important to get info on (new) products from as many sources as possible. So even if one or two (or more!) sources are only providing "fluff," you can get something substantial from *somewhere* ...

The February 2003 issue of Home Theater Mag has a favorable review of the Atanlic Technology P2000 pre/pro. It is a brick & mortor clone of the Outlaw 950.

I heard it received a rather nominal "value" rating, however. Also, I believe the reviewer had a small concern about some aspect of the sound quality, though I haven't actually read it yet.

Hey: Ron's one of us, and he has Klipsch's too!

I can't remember, do the Outlaws have a link somewhere to "reviews" of the 950 (and other eqp)? Be a good one to add.

Hey: Ron's one of us, and he has Klipsch's too!

Hmmm. Well, he ain't one of us all, and.... I'm just too much of an admirer of Outlaw to say anything more of his review.

Anyone considering the 950 should consider ALL reviews and forum threads but if I was to buy.... I'd place my most dependence on RAFs most recent review and those of the most critical doubters who currently are enjoying their 950s.

Having read the HT review of the Atlantic P-2000 (or whatever its designation is), I recognized the piece of equipment as a 950 clone. At the time I did not know that Atlantic is one of the companies involved w/ the Outlaw Audio group. And now I've learned that Sherbourne is the other group. In any case, reading the Atlantic review, I leaned even more towards getting the 950 with one of the amps than I had before. I did compare the HT pictures to those that I d/led from Outlaw: both the front and rear panels were exactly the same (and hence my conclusion).

Now that I've also read the Perfect Revision's review of the 950/ amp combo, I'm now definitely going to pick up the pair. I'll probably stick to the 5 channel amp, tho, simple because I don't see a time when I'll have a place that will justify the 7.1 setup. As it is, 5.1 will be a stretch. Basically, the two reviews combined have ensured that the Outlaw setup is what I'm going with. I was considering any HT Receiver unit by the traditional players (Pioneer, Sony, Onkyo, Devon, etc.), but the price difference for separates is negligible as a result of the quality of the Outlaw products. And, if I remember correctly, the HT review of the Atlantic only gave one score in the high 80s for the Atlantic -- and I thought it was for layout or ease of use or something like that. Just adding my 2 cents worth to the discussion.

I also questioned the low score the HT review gave the AT. Someone on HTF noted that Steve Guttenburg (spelling?), the author, is one of their more realistic reviewers in terms of giving out scores. They pointed out that on *his* grading scale, the AT did quite well. (My opinion, this is just another example of problems with subjective reviews.) But like Merc and others have mentioned, the more you read from *anywhere*, the more you know. Plus, those scores increase when you consider how much cheaper the 950 is.

[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited February 05, 2003).]

Has anyone seen this 950 review posted. I don't remember seeing this on the Outlaw site previously but it is now?