Outlaw 950 vs. Sherbourn vs. Atlantic Technology:

What is the difference among the Outlaw 950 ($899), the Sherbourn PT-7000 ($1200) and the Atlantic Technology P-2000 ($1700)? They all seem to be the exactly same unit. Which of the three manufacturers really makes these things?

Welcome to the wonderful world of the 950 clones. The Outlaw Model 950 was developed by Outlaw Audio with Eastech . Part of Outlaw's deal with Eastech allows Eastech to manufacture the unit for other companies. So far, Atlantic Technology and Sherbourn have both "re-badged" the 950, with little or no difference between the three.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

From what I've read, not too many people have purchased the Sherbourn or the Atlantic Tech clones. Anybody know what's happening with the clone sales? 'Tis the start of Christmas shopping season afterall....

Sorry, my paws got stuck in the keyboard and this message is deleted. I gotta remind my master to get my nails clipped!

[This message has been edited by Iggy The Dog (edited December 02, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Iggy The Dog (edited December 02, 2002).]

Will:

Just curious, but are you reading the internal sales reports from Atlantic Technology and Sherbourne, or are you presuming that because no one mentions it on the various fora (forums? Hey, dogs don't need no stinkn' gammar!) that they aren't selling? Believe it or not, there's a dog's life beyond the internet and people may buy all of these products (and, perish the thought, others!) and not post a lengthy message about them one way or the other. In particular, it may just remotely be possible that the profile of the Atlantic and/or SHerbourne customer is such that they may actually use these things for home theater and not visit the internet all that often.

But what do I know, I'm only a dog.

ARF ARF says Iggy

Someone posted in the saloon a while back that he purchased a clone and liked it. Soundhound subsequently tried to see a clone in Los Angeles stores, but was told he had to order one in order to actually see one. That was a few months ago. They may be more plentiful these days.

Any clone sightings in local stores?

You might not be allowed in A/V stores, Iggy, unless you let them know you you're that dog that types in various fora (forums?).

Will:

Since I'm not a "Service Dog", although I like to think that I perform a valuable service, let's leave it at I'm not allowed into most audio-video stores for a variety of reasons. I'm well behaved, but it's that damned anti-dog lobby that works against me. I guess I'll have to complain to PETA, or maybe get Gloria Allrad to sue on my behalf. After all, who better to look (listen) for high-frequency noise (and the dreaded HISS) than a dog like me?

But what do I know, I'm only a dog!

ARF ARF, says Iggy.

Meoooow.

If internet postings are any indicator at all of sales, then I would agree. I haven't seen much about the Sherbourn or AT units. Plenty of posts on the relatively newly available B&K Ref 50 on HTF for example.

I'm wouldn't be surprised if there was not a huge number of clone sales. When I was trying to see one in person, not one dealer in Los Angeles had one, or was very interested in arranging for me to see one unless I ordered it and put down a deposit. Kind of kills window shopping, wouldn't you say?

My understanding of the Sherbourne (SP?) market was that it was mostly to installers, so at least in that case (if I understood correctly) I'd expect to see owners be a lot less proactive. Outlaw, being internet based is of course probably just the opposite.

I've seen ads in "Sound & Vision" for the AT clone that kind of gives me the impression that they were more widely available. Oh well......

The 'matching' amplifier that AT is offering along with the P2000 hasn't been released yet, to my knowledge. Maybe once that comes out, we'll see more of the AT clone.

Can anyone confirm?

I think we can confirm that the P-2000 is out (at least one person has posted here after seeing one at a friend's house), but fly guy's talking about the A-2000 -- the 7x120W amp from AT. Both units are now listed on AT's product page , but I don't know if the A-2000 is out or not.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I definitely think the AT is a more attractive unit cosmetically. I wonder if it was affected by 'hiss' and if so if it gets the 'SH fix'.

Except for the person who saw it at a friend's house, we maybe wouldn't know the AT pre/pro was out. It sure is stealthy. Anybody know how available it is? There's not one post in Audio Review http://audioreview.com/MLS_65crx.aspx Ditto for the Sherbourn in Audio Review http://audioreview.com/MLS_83crx.aspx

If non-internet-selling 950 clones wanted to participate in Christmas sales, you'd think they'd be in the store shelves by now.

I think a 950 clone from Sherbourn or AT is as hard to find today as hens teeth.

Maybe they decided to wait until all the bugs were worked out before shipping large numbers. Seems like a good idea.


brianca..

But the 950 is shipping in large numbers today, before all the bugs are worked out.

Yeah, they kinda announced the 950 a bit early, or rather were too optimistic about the release date several times. I think they were under extreme pressure to release and that may have forced them into a minor error.

I'm glad it seems sorted now. I hope the upcoming review model is the final SH fixed version.

I went to my local av dealer this evening to scope out his Rotel amps prior to my anticipated ordering of a 950. When I quite frankly told him I had just about made up my mind to get an Outlaw his eyes lit up, and then he quickly ushered me over to what he referred to as the newest addition to his offerings. You guessed it sports fans; the AT P2000.

Boy it sure does looked sweet with its titanium brushed aluminum exterior. He went on to inform me that although its shared the same platform and feature set as the Outlaw that it was definitely a higher quality version i.e. made from more select circuits, capacitors etc. than Outlaw could afford to put in theirs and still meet their price point. Kinda reminded me of the way he once contrasted Pioneer Elites to Pioneer's non-elites.

Well as soon as the words 1700 list came out of his mouth the titanium faceplate began losing its luster. I did however muse over some literature on the P2000 whilst he catered to one his high-roller customers interested in a Sunfire TGIII.

Heres where it gets interesting. I like this guy (owner of the store) he always spends alot of time with me answering multitudes of simple questions as I'm still pretty green in audiophile areas, but theres no way I am even gonna consider this thing at twice the price. He knows my budget is limited and knows I'm driving myself nuts these days trying to get the absolute most out of my upcoming investment. Well after somewhat lenghty debate over possible merits of AT over Outlaw I tell him there's no way its worth that much more to me. Then we talk amplifiers awhile. He cuts me a good deal on a Rotel RMB-1066. I'm thrilled thinkin: I'm gonna go home and order-up the 950 with
a set of PCAs and my decisions are over.

THEN he says how bout I offer you the AT for ****.00, you take it home and try it out and see if you like it. We're talkin a very good price here. He made me promise not to repeat the price lol. He told me that he almost always trys to offer a couple of pieces of his new stuff at great prices to good customers because he gets a lot of "word-of-mouth" sales in his business and it helps to get the ball rolling with newer relatively unknown gear.

Well I resisted the overwelming urge to take him up on his offer. I told him to call me when he had it set up (AT pre/a2000 had literally just arrived and he had yet to get a set integrated into a system for testing) and I'd give it a listen.

Is he B.S.ing me about about the differences between AT and Outlaw? I can't find anything in my research, so far, to substantiate his claims. I usually trust the guy's opinion as he's been in the biz 35 years and started out in the sound engineering end of things (so he says) even produces his own line of speakers and has always treated me fairly.

UUUHHHH, guess I'm back on the fence again. Too bad Soundhound does not live in my town. I'd take him up on his offer and we could A/B Outlaw to AT and end this debate.

Mike

If you could get it for say half the difference, $899 ($900) vs $1700, => $1300, geez, even now that I think about it, that's still a lot of mulah...

I don't know, but I think I'd be willing to bet, that sure, maybe the AT has all those upgraded, hand selected parts, but would you really hear any difference *in real world applications*? I have to (want to ) think not....

Wow,

Just got a look at the AT...man, I'm normally not one to gripe about looks but if Outlaw's 950 looked like that I probiably wouldn't be investing in a new sub as opposed to stashing it away for a 950/770.

Jason

I've read elsewhere that there is a difference in the component video bandwidth, that the more expensive AT and Sherbourne have better HDTV switching. The other "upgraded" circuits may be in place also, I have no idea. But if the price is competitive it may be worth a little more for such good customer service.

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Philip Hamm

There was a thread late last fall (currently eluding me) by someone who had actually heard an AT P2000 at a friend's house and been unable to tell a difference between it and the 950. Hardly a scientific or conclusive finding, but it does lend credence to the theory that differences between the 950 and the pricier clones are going to be subtle. Of course, subtle improvements often come at a steep price in this hobby...

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

The law of diminishing returns...

Although the case of subtle audio, slightly better video and much better looks are all contributory to a final choice.

There may be internal differences between the AT and the Outlaw pre/pro, but I wonder if those differences are smaller than the differences in the Outlaw 950 between the original model and the red dot and blue dot models.

The AT marketing people seem to be justifying the higher price of the AT pre/pro in part by saying higher quality parts are used on the AT pre/pro, even though the functions and features are supposedly identical between the AT pre/pro and the 950 pre/pro. Since the AT marketing people are saying the internal AT parts are higher quality, one might ask the marketing people to back the claim by telling us which internal parts are different, or by telling us some internal parts that are different. Or by telling us even one specific internal part that is different.


One reason some of us are curious about the internal differences between the two is that at last year's CES (year 2002), an AT P2000 prototype and an Outlaw 950 prototype were both cracked open and as I recall from the pictures, everyone thought they looked identical. Not on the outside mind you. But inside, when the boxes were cracked open, they really looked alike. We also heard at the time, that the functions and features are identical (right down to the same idiosyncracies). They didn't fix any of the 950's idiosyncracies when they built the AT pre/pro, or so we heard at the time. Don't know if that's still true today. And of course a lot has happened since those prototypes were shown. On the Outlaw side, we've gone from original 950 to red dot to blue dot 950. Probably some people have cracked open their 950 to look at it. Eventually some people will probably crack open their AT P2000 and try to see how it differs from an Outlaw 950 on the inside.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited January 30, 2003).]

I thought maybe I should add a little clarification. The claim of more "select" hardware on the inside was made by my local dealer. The basis for his observations was from looking at the insides of the unit(AT) at the latest trade show. He said that with his knowledge gained from having been repairing components for a long time that he could tell that AT's internal hardware was top-notch. He said that his decisions to carry the line were based on the high quality nature of its assembly.

AT's advice to dealers regarding concerns between their product and the lowered price Outlaws (which he allowed me to read) were pretty vague. I think they basically concluded by saying they were confident that people would be able to hear a difference.

If you go to the AT website, you can download the P2000 manual in adobe acrobat format. As near as I can tell, the AT P2000 manual is identical to the Outlaw 950 manual, except for the names of the units.

Er.....I would go with the 950.....trust me on this one........

Can the local dealer say anything about any specific internal difference, so that people can open the AT and say, yup, this is more "select" on the inside, than the 950?

Frankly, the parts inside both of these units are surface mount devices, which you will have a hard time gleaning any information from. Also, unless you are familiar with the nomenclature used on electronic components, it would be very difficult to tell any difference, if any existed at all. If somebody said they looked casually inside any device like this and was able to tell anything of value, I would be very surprised, as it is not obvious at all just what component does what, except in very general terms.

I have spent substantial 'quality time' inside all the 950's I had, and there is nothing that could be improved besides parts substituions. The circuit board is already glass epoxy, which is as good as you're going to see on any consumer component. The power supply is already as good as anything out there. There's just nothing else to improve!

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited January 30, 2003).]

Will- Excellent points.

And about peering inside and judging the "quality of manufacture" (maybe similiar to what SH posted): they are both produced on exactly the same manufacturing line.

I like Will's point. If I were seriously considering the AT or the Sherbourn over the 950, I would put the onus on the At or Sherbourn to *prove* to me that any differences were actually relevant to the functionality, performance of the unit.

The difference in video bandwidth is real, but for example, I got direct to the display anyway.

Thanks for the comments everyone (Soundhound especially). I tend to agree that any differences have got to be minimal.

If Soundhound claims Outlaw's assembly would be hard to improve on then I'm sure it would more than exceed my expectations.

I can't blame my dealer too much if some of his comments were a bit misleading. You've got to admit Outlaws approach to marketing has got to be a nightmare for dealers. He did not trash Outlaw products. He did make a blanket referral to directly marketed goods as being inherently inferior which I knew was utter fallacy. In actuality I took his assessment of the AT as a quasi-endorsement of Outlaw's 950.

I do remember reading about some chip or chipset the AT featured which might allow some future sound process format upgrading. They were quick to point out that this was only a theoretical upgrade path depending upon the nature of future format releases? I'm sorry I can't remember the specifics only that it was some sort of "potential" avenue. Does anyone know what I'm referring to. Maybe the Outlaw has it also.

At the very least I do think I will listen to the AT before I make my decision. I like the idea of having a local certified rep for service if the need arises and his 90 days same as cash policy might just let me keep my credit card paided off. That considered along with no shipping charges and the economic gap really starts to shrink.

My biggest concern really is wether the AT has the bugs worked out of it the like Outlaw
does. Last thing I need is a "buggy" unit for my first pre/pro.

Mike

Are you aware the same person runs both companies?

which two companies?

While "runs both companies" might be a bit of an exagerration the same person is associated with both AT and Outlaw.

Speaking of differences...

The true test would be to open both units to make sure. I ran into a similar situation many years ago when purchasing my Pioneer Elite Pro-45 Rear Projection Monitor (still going strong after 13 years as my non-HDTV set). I paid considerably more for the Elite over the "standard" Pioneer RPM and the cost was supposedly justified by a couple of things - higher quality parts (closer tolerances), twice the warranty length, and, of course, that glorious ebony piano-like finish.

In the case of the RPM comparison I got the service manual and there were actual part number differences between the two units. Whether these differences reflected different parts or just closer tolerance parts is hard to say. But the Elite has served me well and has paid for itself many times over.

In the case of the "clones" versus 950 discussion, are there any such verifiable differences? I would suspect not, and the reason you can get the 950 more cheaply is because of the way it's sold. No "salon fees" and other matters to pay for.

Incidentally, I would assume that once everything falls into place the net prices of all these apparently identical units will be very close to each other. The 950 only offers any discounts that Outlaw chooses to promote whereas the clones are more subject to the world of supply and demand.

Speaking of falling into place, I'm reminded that today (1/31/03) marks the anniversary of my first exposure to the 950 as Beta Tester #1. (Think I'll start a separate thread on this not to clog things here.)

One year later and I still think it's a lot of bang for the buck. In fact, if I were in the market for a pre/pro today it still would be my first choice - all things considered.

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RAF

My HT (latest update 04/17/02) Now includes Outlaw 950 and Outlaw 755

RAF! Good to see you!

The individual in question here is Peter Tribeman, president of Outlaw and chairman of the board (previously president) of Atlantic Technology. Peter was very involved in the design of the Model 950. As much time as he spent with it, I'm sure all of the discoveries made with the 950 also appear in the AT P2000.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

No one seems to argue that the video switcher in the clones has wider bandwidth than the 950. I'm curious; I fthis is in fact true what makes the audio section so unique that it could not benefit similarly from parts upgrades?

Or is the improved switcher being questioned as well?

No kidding RAF. When my previous pre/pro kicked out on me last month there was one phone call to make. (and a trip to the attic to dig up that old RF enabled DD decoder)

I've never heard anyone seriously question the value provided by the 950 (or most other products from Outlaw) - a real tribute to the model Outlaw Audio is using.

No one argues that the video bandwidth specs put out by Outlaw and Atlantic Technology are nominally different. Has anyone actually measured the video bandwidth of either?

And on another topic, RAF, it is nice to see you posting here.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited January 31, 2003).]

It's my first choice too but the latest, blue dot version of the 950 came out only about a month ago, and has an improved sound quality, reduced hiss, and greater dynamic range, at least in some systems, compared to earlier 950's.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited January 31, 2003).]

I think the 950 is by far the best value in a pre/pro.

I went with the Rotel RSP-1066 to avoid the wait for the buzz problem to get worked out. Now that the issue is resolved I will strongly recommend the 950.

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Good point, although I would hope both AT and Outlaw have made some effort to test basic specification compliance internally.

Thanks for the kind words, gang. I've never really been "away" although events of the past six months have had to make a lot of web surfing with active participation take a back seat for a while.

I'm still here, enjoying the 950 at the one year mark. Yes, the beta units probably didn't have some of the idiosyncracies of the production units (due to some vendor changes that have been worked out) so I never had a "hiss" issue (or I certainly would have mentioned it.)

In fact, until a few weeks ago I was still running with good old "Number One." Peter graciously did a swap out with me since there are a couple of features (I like the ability of defeating the On Screen Display) that finally had me give in to a blue dot model.

All in all, I have no reason to change statements I've made over the past year regarding the quality and the sound of the 950. Any problems I have are nit-picking, at best, to me. For example, when they added OSD = 0 seconds (On screen display OFF) I would have preferred if they retained the 3 second choice and dropped one of the longer intervals. In fact, as you approach a 30 second On Screen time for the display you might as well add an "Always ON" option and ditch the longest settings. I know it's a question of MIPS, but that a suggestion for a future iteration of the 950.

And, even though the acquisition time of the 950 is now much, MUCH faster than my beta unit I still have a slight issue with delay when running a Dish PVR as the source. However, this might be an anomality of the PVR, not the 950. (I own both the Dish 501 and the 721).

All in all, well worth it.

For those interested...

I'm so happy with the 950 and all it provides that it has become completely transparent to me. Now I'm working on the video end of things. Some of you may already know that I won a Runco CL-500 on the HT Cruise 2002 and Don Stewart convinced me to think hard before replacing my SONY VW10HT. The Runco is a DLP unit (the SONY's an LCD) but the Runco is not native 16:9 (the SONY is). So it would have been a trade off.

However, Sam Runco allowed me to barter up to a CL-700 (native 720p) unit at a remarkable price (lips sealed) and I recently heard that he will allow me to wait for the just announced Runco CL-710c (3rd Generation DLP with the HD-2 "Mustang" chip and other visual upgrades) with no additional cash outlay by me.

Therefore, sometime in the Spring I should have a new unit hanging from my ceiling. A fitting complement to the 950. And, of course, I'll be talking about it once it arrives.

Take care.

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RAF

My HT (latest update 04/17/02) Now includes Outlaw 950 and Outlaw 755

RAF-
The dealy you are experiencing with your PVR is not unique. I'm getting it with my DirectTV Tivo unit as well. It seems the 950 takes its sweet time to relock on the signal --If the could fix this delay, the unit would be perfect!
Ken

I wish there was an AT forum like there is a 950 forum since there have been so few AT owners who post here.

Does anyone know if the AT pre/pro was upgraded like the 950 went through recently when the 950 blue dots came out? If so, are the customers who bought pre-upgraded AT pre/pro's being offered a free upgrade opportunity, like the people who bought earlier Outlaw 950's?

Will

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited February 03, 2003).]

According to AT, they started shipping improved P-2000s shortly after the 950s.

Will: I doubt there is ANY difference between the latest 950 and the AT2000, although I guess there could be...?

Why not ask Outlaw or RAF on this info to be sure???

[This message has been edited by merc (edited February 04, 2003).]

Parts substitution for higher zoot parts that are pin compatible isn't generally all that prohibitive. Either this is happening, or Outlaw is intentionally under rating the 950 video switcher or AT is over rating the p2000 switcher, right?

The last seems least plausable, and I'm trying to figure out what the motivation to intentionally under rate the switcher would be.

Perhaps the same motivation as intentionally "uglying up" the 950 in relation to the AT clone

The higher zoot parts would likely be the "A" suffix versions of the standard part.

At least in the past Outlaw wouldn't talk about what internal differences may differentiate their 950 from the AT pre/pro.

SW, since you actually own the Rotel 1066, may I ask for an actual (honest) comparison between it and the 950. I have seen a few rather biased comparisons from 950 owners mentioning only the 950 features not shared by the 1066, but not mentioning any features of the 1066 not shared by the 950 (eg. the ability to set and remember different subwoofer settings for each different input source). Are you saying you would rather have the 950 than the 1066, or just that it is a better value for the money? If they cost exactly the same, which would you choose and why? Also, the Rotel 1055 and 1065 receivers appear to be identical to the 1066 pre/pro feature-wise (and even the front layout in the case of the 1055)with 5 channels of amplification added. If this is the case, one could purchase the 1055 receiver and get the equivalent of a 1066 pre/pro with a tuner (ignoring the 5X75 Watts/CH)for several hundred $$ less than the 1066 alone....a much better bargain, and much closer to the 950 in price! Am I missing something here? T.

Has anyone from Outlaw shed any light on this? Let's ask Outlaw!

I don't have HDTV so maybe I shouldn't comment, but...

Should specs matter as much as actual picture quality? I mean, if you plug the HDTV source directly into your TV, then unplug it and run it through the 950, and find no signal degradation, does it really matter what the numbers say?

I think the Outlaw is plenty adequate to handle HDTV switching, which even my Denon 3801 (27 MHz) did a good job with (on a Sony KP61HS10 RPTV). I believe 30 MHz is supposed to be all you need.

I would have been a lot more concerned with the early 1066 and Parasound 2500 pre/pros, which were seriously limited.

I'm embarassed to admit I even tried them, but don't even think of using those cheap component cables that come with some DVD players. They're not HDTV compatible.

For what it's worth, I'll quote a tidbit from an old Outlaw newsletter, where they addressed their design choices on the 950's component video switching:



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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

For those that have actually seen the AT P-2000 in person, can you characterize its color/finish?

Will: Take a look at my suggestions that you didn't include in your quotes of my suggestions, and you will see another option to solving your questions...

Did you ever ask RAF on this issue which you thought so important? If so, what did he say about the differences?


[This message has been edited by merc (edited February 10, 2003).]

"Pioneer Elite Pro-45 Rear Projection Monitor "

Interesting side note...I had the same decision to make between Elite and regular. I bought a SDP50 and have completed 5 years of glorious hassle free use--I hope I get get to 10. I still prefer it over my HD-Ready display for regular TV.

I guess this supports my non-scientific perception that based on what I've read in the posts above the 950 would be just fine. Just like in the case of the TV the 950 is pushing my budget and the extra cost is hard to justify especially when the pre/pro features change so frequently that pre/pros don't seem to be a long term investment.