Scott: You mention that the Yamaha when measured was at <50dB on the center/mains with 52dB on the surrounds, now on the 950 registering under 50dB but still more noticeable than the Yamaha?

You asked about tweaks
This is what I have going on. Right now my first 950 (the hissier one) is in my rack. AND it has LESS hiss than it did. If I tweaked pertinent to the reduction I have experinced I’m at a loss how to tell you to duplicate. Realize that this was MY first hands on foray into AV. By that statement I mean….I’ve been listening to sound all my life. Music is a necessity in the background of my days. The 950 purchase, (and shortly before) was the first time in my life, I began to pay attention to how to set up a AV system, and why different setups (brands/models/config menus) affect the ‘quality’ of the sound.

Since the 950’s arrival, I have learned to move speaker terminations/route interconnects/calibrate and navigate system setup menus. Source/inputs/SPL/Distance/crossovers/tone controls (treble/bass)/SP modes. The whole side of AV that I left to the ‘men’ till now.

I have changed and played with settings in so many different configurations that there is no way I’d be able to draw a ‘backtrack’ map. Many of these settings were changed over the last months due to advice that was given directly and/or reading posts and contemplating for myself what to attempt and after some critical beginner’s mistakes. (Which most here, with much experience would have skipped over entirely) Ex: Boosting my surrounds way out of proportion, in my excitement over playing with DTS and DD 3.2/1.

If any of the above had an effect on hiss, you explain it me? I know that I (as anyone who loves and listens with heightened attention to all music reproduction) had had opinions on the ability of any system to reproduce it. This setup sounds simply good/better/best/excellent. I never contemplated upon the many variables, which can effect any systems output. Which brands more ably pass the sound and how to tweak any given system to its fullest potential.

When I mentioned I was not happy with the 950 the first weeks, this feeling was not centered on the subject of hiss, but on the general experience of the sound in total. My husband, (who has not become involved due to his own major project at the time) and I both found the 950 fairly flat and unappealing out of the box. (But I set the menus) To be honest I was happier with the output of my old Pro-Logic Receiver. As I learned to navigate through calibration/distances/crossovers and brought these parameters in line with what was best matched with my speakers, each step forward, was as if I had unboxed a new unit. Every other foray into setup, the sound improved dramatically. Could any of this affect the level of my hiss? I don’t’ know, if I had more experience in setting up a system, I could more easily tell you, I changed this and it did that, since I would have been familiar with a baseline average setup and more quickly moved forward from that starting point. As it was, I used up many days, (what’s a interconnect?) learning the bare bones basics. I don’t know what all I’ve done as I’ve reset the system countless times.

Burn in. A subject that can be debated hotly both sides by some engineers. (Whether or not it occurs and can effect sound) In my experience it does occur to a ‘degree’ in systems. But then I have also proved to myself that a change in interconnects does have a net (positive or negative) affect on the quality of sound and picture. I came to this opinion by changing brands out with absolutely no other adjustments made concurrently to the system, and will beg to differ with any (many) who state it does not. While I understand the tricks the brain can play with ears. Changing my component cables alone between 3 brands visually affected color scale on the display to a dramatic degree.

Leading to my contemplating whether there is a possibility that the 950’s burn-in has reduced its hiss over time.
How much effect I had on the distance out I was able to hear hiss by system configuration and how much is due to burn-in, I cannot judge. I could hear ‘hiss’ out to my seating. When the 950 first arrived. Hiss is NOT audible at seating under any source at this time (I have to go put my ear near speaker to find it now) this reduction occurred BEFORE last week’s speaker upgrade.

It crossed my mind when I installed the Beethoven’s that I would most likely increase the distance out of audible hiss than the distance heard with the less capable Def Techs. Counter to my expectations, Hiss has been reduced AGAIN.
I could hear hiss out approx. a foot on the Def Tech center just before the speaker upgrade. The hiss is closer to the fabric with the Vienna Acoustics.!?!

I will say this. When my hiss was audible to seating (to me) on certain passages played on certain sources, I had already made the decision to keep the 950 regardless. After comparisons to everything that I could request or heard playing at any electronic store I have frequented in the last months. Hiss or no, the 950 in totality beat the competition.

"I will say this. When my hiss was audible to seating (to me) on certain passages played on certain sources" - (or another suggested fininsh to your sentence if you dont mind), its because its in the source.

Case in point - I just received MD - Kind of Blue yesterday on SACD. In the intro to "So What" what is there a lot of, HISSSS. Music kicks in, masks the hiss. Press pause, hiss is eliminated, between tracks, no hiss, and so on. This is also the case on Charles Mingus "Ah Um". If its gone between tracks and in pause, how can it not be in the master? Soundhound??

I talked at great length with Peter at Outlaw yesterday regarding the hiss issues with the 950. We actually got into some extremely technical issues regarding what is going on inside the unit, down to the component level. He explained to me what they have been doing to address the hiss issue, and I have to say that I am quite satisfied that they are indeed taking some definitive steps to make sure the problem is fixed once and for all.

I appreciate his openness in discussing the real 'nuts and bolts' problems with the 950, and I think that the units that will be forthcoming will meet the unit's original promise.

I can't divulge any timetable, but help is indeed on the way.

PS: Bill Gates has _not_ used his "Brain Assimilator" on me to make me say these things.

soundhound,

"I appreciate his openness in discussing the real 'nuts and bolts' problems with the 950, and I think that the units that will be forthcoming will meet the unit's original promise"

Was it your impression that we will get a chance to trade our current units for these forthcoming units?

"Kind of Blue" is indeed hissy, and it is on the master tape. Any recording made before 1968 or so is going to have audible hiss: master tape machines, the tape formulations then available, and the lack of Dolby "A" noise reduction is the cause of this. The signal to noise ratio of professional tape recorders at that time, such as the workhorse Ampex 300/350 series was in the vicinity of -55db. Digital has a signal to noise ratio of -90db and better. Big difference.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 08, 2002).]

Thanks Lena, I seem to be in the same state you were in when you first got the 950. Audible hiss, very "flat" sound compared to my Yamaha Receiver. I am content now to see if there is a "burn in period", either for the piece itself or my ears. If I could get the hiss down to the speaker fabric, I would be more than happy. Other than speaker trim, calibration and crossover setting what other things can be done to help liven up the DTS modes?

You will need to address Outlaw on all these issues.

"I will say this. When my hiss was audible to seating (to me) on certain passages played on certain sources" - (or another suggested fininsh to your sentence if you dont mind), its because its in the source.
This is exactly true and I have been concerned that many listeners digging for hiss might confuse these two. The Outlaw is very revealing, If you have never heard that amount of detail from your current system, it takes some getting used to. When I was messing around with ‘hiss’, I did make that mistake, believing I was hearing noise interjected when traced in reality turned out to be in the source/recording itself.

Other than speaker trim, calibration and crossover setting what other things can be done to help liven up the DTS modes?
I’ll think - and try to pay attention if/when I have time to optimize the Viennas this weekend; what changes I make this time. Something you might try is playing with the treble/bass trim in setup for your speakers. Find a scene/recording that appears lacking and loop while changing these. For my setup this directly correlated to reducing some of the ‘flat’ I heard. My Def Tech needed to be set at (I think +2 on treble) The Vienna Beethoven’s preferred 0 but I have not spent time truly optimizing yet. The jump was such (another) leap forward with the new speakers I’ve just been ‘enjoying’. My time to play in settings does not always coincide with when I’m not working. When the phones let up, (evenings/weekends when I send to voice mail) then the A/V tends to be always in use and they get touchy about me interrupting! The other night the center came a night after the fronts my husband placed it then I pulled out my sound meter and they all yelled NO. (They were watching a movie).

I really did NOT have my new plethora of sound modes down the first weeks. I would hit a particular one that sounded good twice in a row and stick to it. (Not a good idea) With time and familiarity I learned which would optimize best for each source and the quality of the individual recording (regardless of source). Across the board properly implementing these - everything is stellar. But then I made some pretty funny mistakes (ask Matthew) like the time I commented to him here in the forum about trying some Cirrus modes and how they affected my sound. (I was even using one as my version of a ‘night compression’ mode- hey - it did what I wanted compressed some peaks) Matthew had to tell me I had speakers set incorrectly for 6.1 (I was running 5.1). I was not ‘wrong’ in the sense that they did/could affect the sound. Try setting your system for 6.1 or 7.1 if you in actuality have 5.1 set up you will hear some differences on these modes depending on source.
It WILL steer the sound differently.....there was just that tiny matter of no sound radiating from that non-hung 6th speaker I had going on!!!

Play and play more that’s what I recommend.

Peter has apparently spoken to many many people who have the hiss and each person has come away with the same feeling of satisfaction, and every one has been told they can't divulge the details of the conversation, and every one has been told they can't divulge the timetable either. But every one says help is on the way, not to worry. This is Total Deja Vu.

Does Peter cut a deal with customers with a hissing 950 that he talks to only, that can't be divulged to the general public?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 08, 2002).]