I haven't posted for awhile because I've really lost my interest in the HT audio end of things and have moved on to an obsession with a new front projector, screen etc.

Why? Because with good speakers, DVD player and the 950 I find myself actually content and at peace with my sound system. For me that's amazing because I'm always highly critical and discontented with some aspect of my audio system.

The 950 is so good in HT that I feel spending more money for better would be frivolous. When I hear people say they prefer the better "features" in processors that cost 3X as much, I just scratch my head.

For 2 or 3 grand you've got to think there would be more fun to be had than playing with setting on your pre/pro. For the money I've saved I'll soon be enjoying watching movies on a 10 foot screen rather than my 36" Wega. More fun than playing with pre/pro settings? I think so.

At first I regretted not paying another couple of grand for a pre with better 2 channel sound. But after getting the red dot unit, 2 channel was distinctly better, and with tweaks to my DVD 9000ES such as the slow filter and TV mode sound settings, the incremental improvement has brought me to emotional peace with 2 channel performance with the 950. When I really want to upgrade 2 channel I'll get a passive pre for $500 that will be much better for 2 channel than $4000 pre/pro's on the market.

Anyway, I just find it amazing that I don't even look at HT audio forums anymore because I'm actually quite content. And that's from someone with literally thousands of posts in the past.

I attribute that in large part to the Outlaw 950. For 900 bucks who woulda thought?

Anyone with a similar experience?


[This message has been edited by HT crazed (edited November 29, 2002).]

htcrazed,

i have found that surround sound audio hardware is so ridiculously complex that no matter how a company might word or format it's manual, there is no human way to understand some features.

i think there are lots (too many) people who just aren't hearing anywhere near the best their system can be.

when anyone who has average or better intelligence decides to jump into this sea of disjointed insanity, forums are a must. so, we frequent them, read, post, ask, answer, suggest, write down, search, connect, re-connect, place, replace, etc, etc. once we get our particular setup sounding the best it can, most of us have technical indigestion.

so...yes, i have had a very similar experience. i am as pleased with the 950 as with anything i have ever purchased, with one exception...i don't listen to 16 bit cds at all anymore. i wish everyone would just stop buying them so the industry would HAVE to move on with the available new technology, get on the same page, lower the prices and offer new music that's written for the format and performed by someone other than backstreet boys, brit-knee spears, the metiocre midgets and whoever.

...which brings me to the point of my reply...those who are currently offering the hardware and software need to see your posts. they are helpful, intelligent and important. i look forward to reading them and the many others by those who take the time to contribute. though you have reached a comfort zone with your setup, millions of others have not even begun the journey. so, stick around...you have a lot to say on the subject. many people read without posting. it's the ONLY way to learn how to get to the point you have reached with your sanity intact. outlaw will flourish and make better products, which is good for everyone.

HT! Good to see you posting here again! Glad to hear you have found audio "emotional peace". I was hoping it would work out for you. There are some really nice pre/pro's on the market these days. I have listened to a lot of them and would probably be happy with most any of them in my system. Some have more features than the 950- some don't. You're right, you can spend thousands more- (Isn't North America wonderful?!) fact is- give me a Lexicon MC-12 and I'll go away and never complain again. Key word here is --give-- I just won't (or can't) spend that much of my dollars for a preamp/processor. I don't begrudge those who have (Yeah, I'm envious- and I admit it!). I am more than satisfied with my decision to purchase the 950. At $899.00, I think it really does break the rules. Just hard to believe what it does for so little, which is why I believe the law of diminishing returns makes its primary residence here in audio land. This pre/pro made it really hard for me to want to spend a lot more for the small sonic gain one would expect to hear for hundreds or thousands more. For HT it's great- hard to beat for any price. I listen to 2 channel (and multichannel SACD) in bypass mode, preferring my CD player's output. Upgrade-itis effects some more than others. Right now, I too, am more than content- with the performance and features the 950 gives. I'm glad I took a chance and ordered- it was one of my better decisions!
So-what projector are you looking at? Did you buy new speakers also?

Have you tried an upsampling DAC or player? You may be pleasantly surprised. As far as the price and the quality of the "musicians", there I totally agree.

Bossobass - Thanks for the too kind words. Now that I've found a new obsession (my coming soon Sony HS10 projector) I've been racking up the posts in video forums. But like yourself I appreciate the value I've received from the 950.

But my needs are pretty simple - I'm just looking for quality sound and a quality image. And hopefully with the 950 and the HS10 I'll be done with both (for awhile). With Outlaw (and Sony) its nice to have the option to get both overachieving sound and image quality without paying the big bucks for neato "features".

Steves - ugh, I really did say "emotional peace" didn't I (sigh). Actually I've had good speakers and other equipment before the 950. But its good to know that as you scale your equipment, the 950 will help bring out the best in it.

I sound like a walking advertisement, but actually I was outspokenly critical of the 950 introduction and was even booted from a prominent HT board because of comments to that effect.

I just wanted to report that after all the turbulence of that experience - that at the end of the day, it really has been a great value for me. And allowed me to turn my attention away from the wallet sucking audio upgrade treadmill and onto other wallet sucking pursuits.

Hmm, would that be the same "prominent HT board" that we all know and love?

Anyway, glad to hear you've finally worked things out. Yeah, I'd also love to have an MC-12, but I've come to the conclusion that this (950+755+Epic 80) is the best sounding system I've ever owned, and much more quality than I ever thought I'd be rich enough to afford. I am content.

For now. Seriously, who knows what imporvements five years will bring. Or ten. But I'll always have the option of enjoying the quality I have now, and anything I buy next will be because I want whatever features/usability improvements it provides.

My choice; and that feels great.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Seriously, who knows what imporvements five years will bring. Or ten.

Exactly and I don’t want to be locked into the price of car for the next five years in my Living Room, since every car I’ve ever known has started to look not so shiny showroom attractive when the payment book is done.
Lets see, When I started if I rough total some of the prepro/amp and or receiver possibilities I considered. By purchasing the Outlaw 950/770 I freed up depending on which way I ultimately purchased. 1K to 12K. Could not class it as a savings per se as then I went out and spent that savings on Display and Front speaker upgrade….umh…

Or I could have had ONE pre-pro .

No contest here. And I’d stack my setup against all I’ve ever heard ‘personally’ to date. I truly believe I’d have to spend 30K plus to see a definitive step up on the scale over the setup I run now. (And I won’t….I’ll just upgrade….when its time).

Done with it,….till the next SPM war gears up.

THANK YOU Outlaw, I intend to remain a member of this ‘hole in the wall’ type gang….leaning towards the ‘steal’ of a deal mentality. Please……keep them coming.

Hello Everyone,
I haven't been posting of late, but I still enjoy dropping in occasionally. I went through the 950 adventure with the rest of you, but ultimately went another way. (Aragon). I'm very pleased with my purchase. My 2 channel response is absolutely transparant and the HT ranks with anything on the market. After reading the previous posts, I can't help but wonder who was right. Y'all, because it appears that you got an incredible deal, or me because I got a somewhat better piece of equipment?
I went the way that I did because of the Aragon's upgradeability. Now with the purchase of Aragon/Mondial by Klipsch, that upgrade program is in question. So while I got a great piece of gear, I'm in the same boat with the 950 owners in that getting new formats/chipsets when they are released will mean buying a new unit! Really makes me question my choice.
I enjoyed the 1050 that I owned before the Aragon, and still use Outlaw cables. (great value, highly recommended.) I will continue to check the Outlaw site and look forward to future equipment releases.
Until next time,
Mix

Hi Mix! I can be the cagiest, patient, forward looking shopper mulling over a purchase for 4 years and sometimes researching it to death. And can you say ‘impulse’ as in, - had to have ‘new’ speakers after just purchasing ‘new’ speakers.

While I was waiting on my 950, I noted that in what upgrades are offered, many times I saw men agonizing over whether or not to buy an upgrade which often required down time, or buy something else entirely that for ‘some’ reason had recently become attractive to them. I factored (only for me) that sometimes I’d rather revamp than upgrade (for whatever as yet un-thought of future reasoning) so I just discarded it as a factor for my 950 purchase. I have not been this ‘up’ on current technology in years and usually never had it before the rest of the hordes. (I thought I was late to DVD…but notice how many out there are just now making the move from VHS. I factored the fact that in my past I managed to survive with DPL receiver for years until finally breaking into Digital Surround processing, - and that with the Outlaw having everything on it I desired and all that was offered (except Logic 7 which is simply a sometimes personally preferred choice of implementation, - and I decided against the Lexicon) that it had the potential to keep me happy for many, many years if I go the busy life, other priorieties ‘I can live without it for a while’ route. How many will live without 7.1 (oh the humanity) for a long long time, (if ever). I felt there were far TOOO many variables in the industry right now, which made it all a crapshoot on how I’d feel about the subject 2-4 years down the road.

I know you have loved your Aragon. You contemplated various factors and purchased. None of us know for sure …down the road. It's an educated guess or simply an emotional choice surrounding this is what I really feel like doing now.
In other words….we all need a crystal ball………and are fresh out of crystal.

Enjoy your pre-pro and let go any worries which may cross your mind infrequently. Sometimes reading forums I really do wonder if anyone just ‘listens’ to their system, without constantly rationalizing whether or not it was a ‘wise’ purchase and contemplating which part of their current setup needs an upgrade and why and what their current or future choices are.

For myself learning more about sound….as regards how and why its produced and at what quality level, has been a mixed bag of blessings. Sometimes I have to just remind myself what am I in it for. I need to allow the hardware/software to just fade away. Disappear like a good set of speakers when the music fills the room.

Let fly the dogs of DVD action adventure and this time of year, - the chorus of angels. And simply…Enjoy.

Happy Holidays!

My posts have slowed down much as I continue working on learning how to use the 950 and the best settings for my particular room and speaker set. I continue to read because this is a great forum with a terrific mix of posters ranging from people with very impressive technical knowledge down to fiarly "average" HT users who just want "good enough" (and no disresepct meant to those either).

I'm happy with the 950 for the HT audio. I think its much superior in features and sound to anything in the same price range. Its as good in HT sound but maybe not features and, based on superficial evidence only, probably not build quality when compared with models costing 2x to maybe 2.5x. Above that, there is a difference but, for me, too small to justify the price difference even if I could afford it which I can't. Well, perhaps more accurate to say the pain of the zeroes on the check would appreciably dimnish my listening pleasure.

Biggest shortcoming is 2-channel audio which is still the bulk of my listening (how many movies can one watch in a week while holding down a day job and keeping the house maintained?). If I didn't already have a quality passive stereo pre-amp this shortcoming would have been a major obstacle.

Have enjoyed many VHS movies well enough with my family since 1989, but given the shortcomings of VHS I never saw a reason to invest in HT until DVD. Lena, I too have always been wait-and-see, let the techs sort themselves out (at least somewhat) and let prices come down. Also, sort out the hype from what it does for ME (which is why I don't have a mobile phone - another story). The only times I have been an early adopter are personal computers, Internet - and DVD players. I didn't buy when they were still $$$ and few titles available, but I was surprised to realize that I was indeed quite early on this - first in the neighborhood (although all the "Joneses" rushed out to Best Buy shortly after seeing the results from our first player) and even among my audio friends. This year, I've addressed the audio other than the best placement of the sub (need to be SURE since I will then run a wire under the floor); still prefer the sound to come from the front via a three-channel set-up, we will see if that preference stays. Now saving up the pennies for an improved display and flummoxed by the options / price-performance ratios.

What IS rather frustrating to me about the whole HT thing is the pace of change. No doubt best in the long run (although as the saying goes, in the long run we are all dead) but leads to indecision in the short run driven by the nagging worry that one will fail to make the best or most suitable choice.

What I love about my two-channel stereo system is that I replace the phono cartridge now and then (very pleased that many high-quality phono cartridges are still offered to us die-hards although record-industry circumstances of course force me to buy CDs for "new" music), replace / upgrade the speakers every 15 years or so (among other things, they do wear out), and I'm always happy! No real technology changes to worry about, music is still music.

In HT, it appears that no matter how carefully one researches, within 12-18 months the system has become outmoded at best and genuinely obsolete at worst. Very frustrating for people like myself who in general prefer to buy above-average quality and hang on to it.

Only the pre/pro gets dated quickly. The rest of HT doesn't, as much. Many think of a pre/pro like they think of their personal computer or mobil phone if they have one. They get dated quickly. We all know that. So plan accordingly for their fast dated-ness if that's a word.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 05, 2002).]

HTC: check out the Jolida cd-100 tubed CD player... it makes almost all CDs sound better.

While I do understand your frustration, I have to disagree with you on some points.

Yes, HT can be readily changing, but we are at a time of transition in the HT world. VCR's were the standard for close to 20 years. Now DVD is becoming the standard, and hopefully WILL be the standard for the Next 15 years or so. Yes, we may be seeing blue laser technology come into play. But honestly, I doubt that it will be nearly as revolutionary as the movement we are seeing now. Higher quality needs to be pretty high in order to make a major dent in the consumer base (dont believe me...I work for a TV station. We aren't scheduled to switch over to a Digital HDTV format untill 2014. I guarantee you that if people demanded it we would switch over within two years. The quality...although superior to the NTSC signal that you recieve now...just isn't "revolutionary" enough to make people demand it. It's not like the jump from Black and white to color. (even that took a number of years to switch...but the demand was far higher then HDTV).

People have embraced DVD for a variety of reasons, mot of them have been features that VHS and other formats did not have. Quality is a rather minor issue to the greater public. Honestly the thing that made me a DVDphile was the directors commentary, the instant scene access, and the numerous features that DVD's had. Afer I purchased a player, the elivated quality made VHS viewing a huge let down. In short DVD forced me to become a connosuer of Home Theater. (It promply led to me spending a few years testing speakers before I finaly began my love affair with Paradigm.)

My point is this. While at this time in consumer history it may appear that things are changing at a rapid pace...that's just the way consumer electronics are during technological changes. Just imagine back in the early 80's if you purchased a Beta player (which my aunt did...) Five years later you would be bemoaning your decision not to buy a VHS deck. If you purchased a reciever in 1995 wich didn't hae digital inputs, or Dolby Digital and DTS decoders (which I'm not certain if they were around then...but I imagine that they probibaly were) you would be bemoaning the fact that you need to buy a new one today.

My point is that your compairing LP's to HT is rather a moot point. You are compairing a technology that became an industry standard for nearly 40 years to a newly developing technology. Yes, they can keep adding more and more speakers untill it's literaly wall to wall and floor to ceiling. But at some point (and I think it will be fairly soon due to the market penetration that DVD has) there will be some point that you can say "This is it" and realy expect it to stick for the next 15 years or so. Heck, for the most part you could just say this is it and be done with it with a 5.1 or 7.1 system. If you want the best and most new fangled system you'll never TRUELY be done with it. There's always some new spin to lure unsuspecting consumers in. Some people will be perfectly happy to say enough is enough. Joe Six-pack is fed up with having to buy a computer every time microsoft releases a new OS. I dont think that he's going to jump at having to buy a new HD-DVD player after just dropping good beer money on a DVD player and reciever (unless god forbid he saved up for a Bose system...and sees the light).

Just my uninformed opinion.

Jason

[This message has been edited by fmcorps (edited December 08, 2002).]

Howdy All:

One of my 'hobbies' is tracing the history of Hi-Fi, and collecting vintage gear. I have a collection of Hi-Fi magazines from the 50's, and one theme runs through them all: everyone is bemoaning the rapid pace of technological change and the rapidity of obsolescense of their gear. The change from 78 RPM to 33 1/3 rd, Mono to Stereo, new amplifiers and speakers, acoustic suspension speakers, tape recorders, and the fact that they had _several_ equalization standards for their mono LPs before the RIAA curve finally became the one standard (sound familiar?), triode vacuum tubes verses pentode vacuum tubes, FM, then FM stereo. It's really fun to read what the audiophiles of the day went through. It was just as messy as it is today in so many ways.

Food for thought....

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 08, 2002).]

The preferred recording medium was wax cylinders in Edison's day, 125 years ago. You can see a replica of the first phonograph at http://www.tinfoil.com/tinfoil.htm

Same experience, same regrets, also forgot about regrets when I went for an FP (got the Sanyo plv70).

I also already had a dedicated 2 ch preamp.

BB

It just seems that technology allows the changes to come much more frequently. In the past 10 years we have seen everything from cassette tape, MD, DAT, DCC, MP3, WMA, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, Pro Logic, DTS, DVD, SACD, DVD Audio, VHS, Betamax, Digital VCRs, Laserdisc, CD, NTSC, EDTV, HDTV, RPTV, DLP, LCD, CRT, plasma, Dipole, Bipole, direct radiating, PVR, Satellite TV, Cable, webtv, Composite, S-video, Component, RGB, DVI, Coax, Optical, Coaxial digital, etc., etc.

Many of these technologies have been around for longer, but they have all been players in the last 10 years. The convergence of technologies inundates us with formats and buzz words at such a fast pace it truly becomes a hobby just to keep up with them.

I'm not complaining... change is good! It's just a little overwhelming.

[This message has been edited by SayersWeb (edited December 10, 2002).]

Judging from how slowly DVD's are adopting even DTS, I think the formats already offered on the 950 are going to serve well for a good number of years.

The other revelation I've had, now that I have my new front projector, is that big sweet 12 foot picture takes alot of your attention away from the sound anyway. The sound becomes more like icing on the cake.

I think my original objectives worked out pretty well in that I wanted dependibly excellent sound (which the 950 delivers), with enough cash left over so I don't have the sensation of watching a 32" movie in the middle of Carnagie Hall.

Merc, I've heard good things about the Jolida but since I already have a good CD source I'm looking more for a passive pre (or active with unity gain). Have you found a good one yet?

Which projector did you buy?

The Outlaw forum may possibly be the best place to follow technology. The folks that post here are knowledgeable and civil. I think I have gotten more useable information from the postings here than the other places I/we frequent. No one has some agenda pushing their favorite equipment and even people who purchased equipment other than Outlaw still contribute.

I did want to comment on my experience with the evils of front projector viewing.

I got involved in a local home theater group in Atlanta. I visited several folks home theaters. (None compared to soundhounds though). Several are regular posters on AVS and swayed me to a CRT projector. When I finally got it set up and going, I have turned into a video junkie. One year ago I stumbled on this website looking for an inexpensive pre/pro because I thought I would enjoy watching movies in my “music room”. I assumed I would be listening to mostly music and now find myself a videoholic. A terrible disease I have yet to find a cure. I used to watch a video a month, now I have Netflix sending me movies at a shameful rate. Now I sometimes listen to music in the theater.

So HTcrazed, I certainly appreciate letting the sound immerse you in the movie. I would love to have more DTS offerings. I watched a JVC high def VHS on a digital projector in the local home theater store. The picture was awesome. Perhaps the HD format on DVD will be the next real revolution in home theater.

Well...if fearing that you'll get an outdated piece of equipment, you can always use the rule of three:

If best buy has three different companies shooting it out for this nitch, your pretty well golden.

About the only thing that this doesn't work for is Betamax. All the other "fly by night" formats seem to be pretty well cemented when you see at least three consumer electronics companies fighting it out for your dollars on the shelf of your local best buy. So check ther first before you decided to plunk down cash for that new hechababbi. Once you see three of them, start shopping the boutiques till your heart is content.

Jason

Jacketfan - I approached HT from the audio side, but as you say, you're only a front projector away from turning into a crazed videophile.

Now the problem is, once you've tasted hi-def even the best DVD's don't cut it anymore. It's a good thing there are companies around like Outlaw - this hobby is enough of money pit as it is.

Sayers - I purchased the Sony HS10. I payed $2700 but of course now I'm hearing about people getting theirs for around $2200. In any case, its an outstanding projector for the price IMO. One of those deals like the 950 where you can pay 3X the price for an incremental performance gain. (unless you go CRT, but there's the hassle factor to deal with)

I'm glad you are all enjoying your 950s. There was so much varied opinions of this unit that a lot of us hesitated to buy. Now I'm seeing more and more positive information.

It is particularly interesting when I see a 950 compared to a more expensive pre-pro and the reviewer states that there wasn't a whole lot of sonic difference, especially considering the price. It seems more and more that the real differences are in features and upgradeability.

Funny. Most of the negativity have come from a very few, very verbal people. Over on HTF, a good many people who have never actually tried a 950 try to rip it to pieces. Most everyone who owns one likes it. Those who returned it generally seemed to have bought something more expensive, as opposed to buying an $800 receiver and using it as a pre/pro. The hiss issue is fixed. The thing comes with a 30 day return policy. It has a 5 year warranty. It sounds fantastic. Why not try it?

If you do look over on HTF, there was a thread active a few days ago about how most of the R&D on the 950 *must* have come from Eastech, and couldn't have come from the Outlaws themselves...

Oh, another telling point: even for a lot of us who had *specific* complaints, we didn't want to give up our 950's, we just wanted Outlaw to address them...

Yea, Kevin. everything is a war over there. If I actually knew where to find Lena, I'd buy her a drink. You tend to need one if you go there and actually support Outlaw.

Another voice from the past here!

I, too, have been merely enjoying my 950 for many months... I've been off with new obsessions and haven't had time to keep up here. I hope everyone's been enjoying their 950's, and we'll have more Outlaws in the family in the coming year.

Steve

I'd buy her a drink.

and I sure could use one right now. Bless Outlaw for what they are....how they handle CS, ....and not the least....Their products which preform above the average norm (average being everything else I have purchased in the last 12 months)

Don't have time to put on my war bonnet right now, ...should NOT be in here at all....but time deadlines (for returns)have had me dealing with other purchases..(see Be Very Afraid) when I should be catching up on work.

And I can tell you right now Outlaw is the #1 top company (all around average) I've done business with this year.

In fact at the moment after dealing with Dish and Direct and Sony and the HTS all month...I could kiss them!

OK, Lena- mentioned something...

My top 3 customer service companies:

1) Outlaw. Self explanatory. They said they'd fix the hiss, even after they thought they did the 1st time, and they improved it even more.

2) Acurus. They've sent me out free manuals. There was a problem with the combined LED/power switch on the early 100x3/200x3 amps, and they sent out replacement switches, and instructions for how to swap them for free. Plus, looks like they are still going to do an upgrade/swap for ATC-3/Soundstage owners to the latest pre/pro.

3) Pioneer. I had a refurb DV-05 that started to die on me after 15 months. I had to pester them a little, but they took it back, and gave me a great deal on a DV-47ai.

Worst company? Sony....

When handing out kudos to companies for their customer service, all the above are deserving, but please include AV123, the purveyors of Onix Rockets. Their CS is an example of how it should be done.
Happy New Year All.