Hi;

First post to the site.

I am seriously considering the 950/770 combo deal,and I have one major Fly in my Ointment.

I been seduced by SACD/DVDA and love the multichannel sound from these format's.

Now for my problem: From what I can tell when using the Direct Bypass (5.1 analog external inputs)you can only adjust the bass and treble for the "front left and right" speaker's.

This is how my Denon 3300 operates in "Direct Mode",and I sent an Email to Outlaw,and they confirmed that the 950 operates the same (tone only adjusted for front's in Direct mode".

Here's the rub-Doesn't it make sense that when using a Hi Resolution audio source for Multichannel operation that tweaking the front left and right mains while NOT being able to adjust the center and rear's tone throw's the whole effect out of balance???

This also apply's to Dolby Digital and DTS movie soundtrack's too.

I was hoping that the 950 might have given me the ability to change tone setting's on all 5 channel's or 7.

Anybody have these component's hooked up to SACD/DVDA unit's and confirm??
I will probably purchase the unit's regardless,but was hoping to be able to control the tone for all channel's (neurotic tweeker)

Thanks

CC

I don’t think I’ve ever moved my bass tone control off neutral, (I prob have ..just never left it off netural) I have however at times tweaking for some various sources and on the 2 950’s, - had the treble tone adjusted at diffrent times + or - for some length of time while tweaking.

I run DVD-A’s through a Panny RP-91 in 6-channel direct and CD’s in 2-channel bypass. Even though my Fronts and surrounds are different models/manuf. I have not noticed any problems with balancing effect. I find the quality of the experience is most dependent on the recording itself, and secondly most affected by speaker calibration levels, than any other factor. YMMV
PS.....I get in a hurry and forget my manners! Welcome!!!

[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited January 03, 2003).]

IMO the BASS and TREBLE controls are too coarse and the concept is flawed anyway. Never use 'em, wouldn't miss 'em.

I'd like to see something better, like a simple EQ with memories or something similar. The whole preamp as gain and switcher concept is actually getting pretty long in the tooth, but that's a whole different soapbox.

Along more useful lines, you can insert a signal processor between each preout and mainin and tweak away. The beauty of separates.

Thanks folks;

Realize many don't use tone control's (Heresy),but I do,and having flexability is what it's all about.

Getting critical here,and it's no fault of Outlaw's when most other company's don't offer this feature also.
Just hoping that my original answer from Outlaw may have been wrong,and some of you with the actual unit's in operation could tell me that it was possible.

Thanks anyway,and will look into possibility of adding Eq in the path as suggested by
Charlie.

Just seems wierd to me that with 5 or 7 channels of Discrete info going out-there would be a need to adjust more than 2 channel's-tone wise.

Thanks again

CC

Just to be clear, I'm not against signal processing at all. EQ is everywhere and that's just life. It's the coarseness etc. that I object to in typical B&T controls, not the concept of tweaking.

I agree it's wierd to include it on 2 of 7 channels.

I'd like to either see it gone or made useful, like either finer adjustments and adjustable shoulder freq or a simple EQ setup. As it stands its useless clutter to me.

The old 'tilt' controls were simple and effective IMO if we want something simple, otherwise do it right and put a 3 band parametric on each channel or something.

If the next pre/pro had AES/EBU outs on it I could pump them straight into my Ultracurve without any extra A->D->A steps! How cool is that?

Way Cool-thats how!

For me i've never really noticed the distortion that many claim tone controls add,but i've always liked the flexability that tone's have allowed.

Granted i'm dealing usually with Mid Fi equipment,and making up for sound shortcomings is what Eq is all about.

My speaker's are all pretty much matched up now (Paradigm Studio Ref's),and tweeking the fronts as needed-leaves the center and rears out in the cold.

For those that abstain from tone controls I did not mean to insult.

Regards
CC

[QUOTE]Originally posted by charlie:
[B]IMO the BASS and TREBLE controls are too coarse and the concept is flawed anyway. Never use 'em, wouldn't miss 'em.
___________________________________________

i'm gonna print this one! charlie and i absolutely, positively agree on something

now...back to normal mode. for the life of me, i can't understand the current ultracurve rage. behringer is the k-mart of pro sound gear. for eq:
http://www.avalondesign.com/eq2055.html

of course, these should only be used on the production side...never on the playback side.

artist/instrument, gear, producer, masterer, transfer, player, preamp, amp, loudspeaker then ears. at this point, eq ain't gonna fix much.



[This message has been edited by bossobass (edited January 03, 2003).]

Well, IMO use an EQ to fix an EQ problem. I don't understand the high-end fascination with discrete components, but each to his own. Personally I'd like to see the music do a single A->D->D->D->A cycle between me and the artist, with all processing done in the digital domain. Ideally I'd even get rid of the analog filters in the speakers and use a digital filter and dedicated amp for each driver. This implies a powered speaker (or the equivelent) so some or all of the amps might even be candidates for class 'D' amplification.

But that's way off topic.

I have the Outlaw 950 with Parasound amps, the 2205AT and 1500A. I have a Sony 555ES SACD, with Monitor Audio Gold 60 series mains. I have Gold 10 series rear surronds with Gold Fx di-pole surronds. The tone controls on my 950 are set at zero. I have tried them at different setting but found that they didnt add anything to my music listening. I leave the tone controls at zero for my home theater also. With good speaker placement and calibration you will really enjoy your multi channel music and movies. DOBEMAN

In the end that's what it's all about - enjoying the music.

I guess I'm just saying that the crudeness of B&T doesn't negate the potential use of other sorts of signal processing for me. The signal chain from artist to listener is packed full of filters and other stuff that is essentially the same as EQ, just not as end user abusable. Anyone who thinks that inserting an end user EQ in the chain somehow corrupts the purity of the system by adding something that wasn't there before is deluded. Subject to QoI of course.

As always - IMO and YMMV.

though admittedly, i suffer from many maladies, dillusion is not one of them. if there is a weak link in the playback chain, especially the software, out the window it goes. eq doesn't replace a weak link.

the fascination with high end discrete components is...results.

however, i agree with keeping a digital recording completely in the digital domain, including digitally bi or tri amplified speakers...it's the not too distant future of HT.

on the subject of eq, does anyone out there ever use the theater compensation feature?

dobeman...sounds like a very nice setup. what are you using for sub and where do you set the low pass point?

AwRight you guys get off my back

I'm going to use Eq whenever I feel the need-regardless of speaker position or quality or whatever.

If I like the sound with tone control's tweeked-then i'm tweekin,and thats it-period.

I am not on a never ending quest for the Perfect speaker/amp combination-I just like hearing music the way I want with the equipment I have,and if it sounds better with the bass jacked,and treble tweeked So Be It.

I guess this thread can go on indefinately,but if I can find a pre/amp combo that adjusts ALL speaker's equally in the Multichannel mode I might prefer it over the Outlaw's. (know of any?).

For myself-enjoyment of Multichannel HiRez audio with the equipment I now have-needs tweeking of tonal qualities for my situation.

Maybe the addition of the 950/770 will negate my need for tweeking,but I doubt it.

Regards
CC

Whatever's done behind closed doors, between conscenting adults, including EQ is OK by me

Oh - I guess you'd like it to stay near the topic? So you're one of those!

I think the Anthem has a simple EQ on each channel and the Ref30 may also. Look in the online manuals to be sure.

How's that?

Eq is everywhere, like it or hate it. IMO it all boils down to (1) use it to solve appropriate problems and (2) QoI. It's way too late to try and get rid of EQ in the signal chain, even if it was a bad thing.

Bosso - Wasn't slammin' the link, it just makes me a little crazy that an engineering choice (discrete components) is used as a marketing tool, when in fact good and bad designs are equally possible with IC's or discrete parts. It just depends on the implementor and his design constraints. I'm sure the gizmo you linked to is a nifty unit!

charlie: i know you weren't slammin'. i enjoy reading all of your posts. you're a smart guy.

i only know eq from the production side. as a bass player for many years, i got ripped off by terrible gear/producers too often.

these days, i play mostly because i like to. i can just say that, when i walk into a studio and see an avalon design di box, my tension level ratchets down a couple of notches.

i've recently worked with a super, mega-anal guy who spent many hours eq-ing my bass tracks, while, at every step, asking me what i thought. my bass is custom made with no volume or eq. just a straight signal through dead quiet, high quality pickups, so it's up to the producer's gear and ear. i shudder at the thought of someone playing that disc through twin svs subs, running 8db hot and eq'd on top of that, you know, for slam and hit and all those ridiculous verbs. if the music is supposed to do those things, it will. it doesn't need to be re-mixed at the listening position.

it's like buying a rembrandt, then touching it up a bit with some interior latex paint from home depot.

i understand that once you buy it, you can do what you like with it. but...sayin' it's ok is another thing.