I have a decision to make. You may find this a little humorous, but I work a stereo shop, and even with a great discount, I'm looking at an Outlaw!

The 950 at $899 is such a great deal. However, we do carry Anthem (I'm actually buying one of their amps), so I've been comparing the AVM 20 to the 950. One thing I really like is the bass management in the 950 for SACD/DVD-A. In a review of the Anthem, they said it has bass management, but I'm wondering if it's the same type, here is what the review stated:

The AVM 20 includes a six-channel analog input primarily for multichannel music on SACD or DVD-A, and then, on top of that, adds XLR outputs. But then they went one step further and included bass management for the high-resolution multichannel audio formats. There are a limited number of players that offer any such on-board facility, and a couple of after-market devices that address this much-needed functionality, but there's not much available in the processor world -- until now, that is. In the AVM 20, you simply choose the "Analog DSP" mode for the six-channel inputs. This routes the DVD-A or SACD signals through the Anthem’s A-to-D/D-to-A section, thereby allowing you to use the bass-management function in the Anthem with the analog inputs.

Some purists may scoff at converting high-resolution audio signals to digital and then back to analog again. Maybe they have full-range speakers all around and don’t need to. Fine, they don’t have to use the bass management functions in the AVM 20. Anthem gives you choices, which is the important point to remember. And if I had to choose between limited functionality versus proper programming for my speaker system, I'd choose proper set up in a heartbeat. The AVM 20 can accommodate many different system configurations, which points to forward thinking on the part of the folks at Anthem

Any thoughts?

I'm not real up on the bass management on the AVM-20's multichannel analog input -- based on the review's comments, it sounds like they are offering the option of converting the signal back to digital for the processing and then back to analog. Maybe I'm a purist after all, but that doesn't overly appeal to me. If you can get your hands on an AVM-20 and do some listening tests (which I suspect you can, if your shop carries Anthem), I'd suggest demo'ing a couple of DVD-Audio or SACD discs (Blue Man Group has some good bass to experiment with, but it might be good to test a disc without much bass so you can look more at any loss in sound quality), turning the bass management on and off to see what affect it has.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I agree with gonk. I like the way the 950 does multichannel bass management-- in the analog domain-- with no A-D/D-A conversion. I believe that until the player(s)(are allowed) can send the DVD-A or SACD signals digitally to the processor-- for bass management in the digital domain, which would be best,-- that this is the way to do it. That the 950 has this option available is a real plus IMO. If you go ahead and buy the 950, it might be nice to take it to work and run 'em head to head. Good luck.

Having to re-digitize a signal just to perform bass management is a less than ideal solution. This can't help but mess up the signal quality, no matter how high the quality of the A/D and D/A converters in the Anthem. If the signal is already in the analog domain, process it in the analog domain. If the processing can be done in the digital domain without re-conversion, then that would be preferred. The lack of digital outs on DVD-A and SACD preclude this however.

I think the Outlaw analog management solution is only optimal if you have a X.1 speaker system based on an 80hz crossover. A forum search here and else where will reveal quite a bit of discussion regarding Outlaw's design decision to sum all channels and send the 80hz low pass to the .1 output in the bypass mode. The AVM20 just passes through, so your player must do the bass management. Of course if that is lacking, I think the ICBM is the way to go.

I believe it was also the suggested work around for the 950. I also remember some folks pointing out that for the price of an AVM20 (without an ICBM) you could do a 950, and ICBM, and I think a Sony av-preamp and still have significant beer money.

rant------->
Frankly, I don't know how anyone should design AV preamps for DVD-A/SACD. As I understand it, there isn't any standard for how the recording engineer routs bass in the recording.

"Frankly, I don't know how anyone should design AV preamps for DVD-A/SACD. As I understand it, there isn't any standard for how the recording engineer routs bass in the recording."
I hear this quite often and don't necessarily agree. Sony has said that MC SACD was designed to allow the artist (or producer, or somebody...)to make a recording using 2, 3, 4, or 5 channels (including a .1 if inclined) depending on how they want to use to get the result (sound) they are looking for. Artistic freedom of choice. (You can find SACD's in most all of these configurations). Speaking for SACD recordings, I believe Bass isn't supposed to be routed anywhere in the recording- it's where it is in any particular channel and is of course dependant on what instrument or sound is coming from that particular speaker- as the producer wanted. All speakers are supposed to be configured as large, so Bass management wasn't/isn't supposed to be a problem. However, until we get the signal passed from the player to the processor in the digital domain, it will be somewhat of a problem--- in theory. I could set all my speakers as large, but choose to set them as small and use the 950's MC analog bass management and pass all freq's below 80 to my subs. In practice, it works very well. Sounds just fine. I can't localize frequencies below 80 Hz anyway.
"I think the Outlaw analog management solution is only optimal if you have a X.1 speaker system based on an 80hz crossover."

Optimal, it isn't, nor do I believe that it was ever intended to be. (The Outlaws have said they never planned it to be an ICBM.) Adding something similar would have really raised the unit price. If you had to pick a single crossover point, 80 Hz is a good place to set it [see THX]. My Sony player uses 120Hz as the crossover point- I like 80 better, so I use the 950 for BM. You're right, the ICBM is optimal. But the 950's multichannel bass management is way better than nothing, which is what most pre/pros give you. Thanks for the rant! Best wishes...


[This message has been edited by steves (edited December 18, 2002).]

Sorry to be the lone hi-fi heretic yet again, buuuuuttt.....

I have no problem with the way the AVM-20 handles a SACD/DVD-A signal. If you want an analog bypass with volume control, you can have it. (And when they say bypass, they mean bypass; no crossovers or anything in the signal path.) If you want to do stuff to the signal, it is easier to do those things in the digital domain. The AVM-20 allows you to do that too.

It's a tough choice for most people because each solution has compromises. You just have to figure out which compromise you're comfortable with (that is, until we get a hi-res digital interface).

Personally, I prefer to digitize the signal. Yes, I know that another A/D & D/A step will cause a slight loss of resolution but, to me, the degredation is negligible. I mean we're talking about a very robust signal going through 96/24 ADCs and DACs; it's not like you end up with muffled sound from this extra step.

The advantages, however, are anything but negligible. Once in the digital domain, I can do much more than just bass management. If I feel the need, I can time align my speakers, apply post-processing, DSP modes, tone controls, etc. And even if you just do time alignment and bass management, keep in mind that digital bass management almost always allows more flexibility than analog bass management (especially for those of you who don't use an 80Hz crossover, like me).

These features allow me to have a much more coherent presentation compared to analog bypass. I've tried it both ways and I've found that these advantages outweigh the slight resolution loss the signal may suffer. As always, YMMV.

Best,
Sanjay

>>I could set all my speakers as large, >>but ..choose to set them as small and use >>the 950's MC analog bass management and >>pass all freq's below 80 to my subs.

If you want to use the 950's 5.1 analog bass management, shouldn't you tell your DVD that your speakers are Large and let the 950 redirect all the bass to the subwoofer?

Yes, if you want to use the 950 for analog MC bass management instead of the player. Then config speakers as "small" in the 950 and flip the toggle switch to up position. Sorry if I confused ya...