Interesting article at audiorevolution. I guess we'll start to see the first wave of units at CES next month.

Geeks abhor obsolescence!

Oops -- here's the URL

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/1202/13.firewire.shtml

That’s exciting but contemplate this and tell me what you all think.

Is this industry (A & V) loosing their minds during the current and future digital connectivity wars? Or Am I imagining or not fully understanding the implications of what the current upgrade fever is blinding us all to.

Ultimately we all want the latest best quality connection between our audio and video purchases. Life was SO much simpler as we were all slowly upgrading from the big…only 3 choices. Composite, S-Video, Component. And analog coaxial to digital optical/coaxial.

Now read this: http://www.hdmi.org/press/release_120902.asp

HDMI FOUNDERS HITACHI, MATSUSHITA (PANASONIC), PHILIPS, SILICON IMAGE, SONY, THOMSON AND TOSHIBA RELEASE FINAL HDMI 1.0 SPECIFICATION AMID BROAD INDUSTRY SUPPORT

High-Definition Multimedia Interface Provides Access to Higher-Quality Digital Content

SUNNYVALE, Calif., December 9, 2002 - High-Definition Multimedia Interface™ (HDMI™) Founders Hitachi, Matsushita Electric (Panasonic), Royal Philips Electronics, Silicon Image, Sony Corporation, Thomson, and Toshiba Corporation today released the final 1.0 specification for HDMI, the next-generation digital interface for consumer electronics. HDMI enables the secure distribution of uncompressed high-definition video and multi-channel audio in a single cable, providing consumers with a broader array of high-quality digital content while dramatically simplifying ease of use.

With the availability of the HDMI v 1.0 Specification, manufacturers can now develop and bring to market HDMI-compliant products to usher in a new era of previously unreleased, premium high-definition content. The HDMI initiative enjoys broad industry support from major motion picture producers Fox and Universal, satellite companies DIRECTV and EchoStar, cable companies, and consumer electronics manufacturers. Because digital television (DTV) signals remain in digital format, HDMI assures that pristine high-definition images retain the highest video quality from the source all the way to the display.

HDMI combines high-definition video and multi-channel audio in a single digital interface with a bandwidth of up to 5 Gigabits/second. Benefits include uncompressed digital quality, fewer cables and a small, user-friendly connector suitable for a wide range of CE components. In addition, HDMI capitalizes on the interoperability standards created by the CEA and supports many of the capabilities of the AV.link interoperability protocol popular in Europe, such as control of multiple source devices through a single remote pointed at the DTV. HDMI with High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) technology solves the issue of protecting high-value content from unauthorized reproduction and distribution.

"As digital media forms a bigger piece of the consumer entertainment experience, many users are overwhelmed by the complexity of interconnecting all the pieces," explained Steve Kleynhans, vice president, META Group. "HDMI, as an industry standard, will provide some measure of relief while providing the quality users have come to demand, encouraging the adoption of new types of digital entertainment."

A growing number of DTVs and set-top boxes on the market today already feature Digital Visual Interface (DVI) connections. HDMI builds upon the capabilities of DVI, adding a number of attractive new features designed specifically for consumer electronics applications while maintaining full backward compatibility.

Parties interested in designing HDMI-based products may access the HDMI 1.0 Specification at www.hdmi.org

About the HDMI Founders
Comprised of Hitachi, Matsushita Electric (Panasonic), Royal Philips Electronics, Silicon Image, Sony Corporation, Thomson and Toshiba Corporation, the High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) Founders have joined together to define a next-generation digital interface specification for consumer electronics products. HDMI is also supported by major motion picture producers, as well as satellite and cable companies. For more information about the HDMI specification and the HDMI Founders, visit www.hdmi.org
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This all sounds thrilling -DVI and Firewire (vapor wear for so long) finally showing up on the floors. But IF audio pushes towards Firewire and displays push towards DVI now (HDMI) (and those are two very big ifs as they are all flip-flopping at the moment). With hugh arguments already going on in forums concerning the fact that this is NOT backward compatible to plain Vanilla DVI as soon as the Analogue digital is cut off


If the displays ramp (as many latest articles suggest) towards all the big manufactories placing DVI (I beleve DirectTV trying to require it) on ALL current and near future built sets. (Have you noticed how rare it is to have multi capable DTV units on the market., either it does not appear to be cost effective or possibly creates engineering difficulties in fitting it all in and lockout problems in accessing one Vs the other?) .

If they place DVI they DON’T place 1394 on the same unit, It might have RGB or Component or Composite. So thousands of the these units hit the floors are sequentially purchased then audio comes along just recently toying with ‘dangling’ the upgradistis feature of 1394 in front of everyone (particularly in Receiver models offered) due to the audio hype that’s trickles to lay people. “Yes, of course this receiver features firewire” (That thing they don’t understand very well but have been led to believe they need in any respectable current feature list)

But then all the displays are launching to market with DVI/HDMI, the forums start raising Cain why can’t they get there audio and video units with direct connectivity to each other. And the stink causes audio to react by dumping DVI audio capable units out in their next release?

Am I wrong? Is this train moving 2 directions and the two keep missing each other as each side’s current model connectivity choices flip-flop between which output/input is going to be offered for just this 6 months???

In other words you do rush out and buy the latest 1394 equipped Audio unit, you rush out and buy the latest DVI equipped display, your back to connecting video through your components outputs. (And be sure to watch out and not buy the STB with RGB/1394/ and composite connections (they are out there) or you’ve just lost your optimum (or at times even possible) routing and you have a nightmare sorting your DVI display.

I’m still twisting my brain around all these possible variables, but I have a question I don’t know off the top of my head and just thought of. Is component video ( I perceive it becoming the fallback position for this mess at the moment) even capable of passing digital feeds when analog digital video signals are no longer sent OTA (NTSB etc)? Isn’t component cabling analog based?

So if you just bought the setup I described in the last paragraph, your going to have big problems (potential for lack of capability to receive any feed?)


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited December 14, 2002).]

Since when has the audio/video industries ever made sensible decisions based on what was in the best interests of the consumer?? The motto seems to be to throw everything at the wall and see what sticks, on the consumers dime of course. Best advise? Tread slowly and beware.....

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 15, 2002).]

Lena, Any piece of metal wire can pass a digital signal. The problem is that the component video jacks on the back of your TV aren't designed to accept a digital video signal, only analog. It's a question of interface rather than cables.

Best,
Sanjay

Any piece of metal wire can pass a digital signal.

That answers that and thank you. I wonder if this escalates to an issue of epic griping in the next years, is some type of conversion ‘interface’ adapter possible? Would something like this require too many hardware/software changes when your dealing with interface. Is the set path through a display for component feed just too deep and core? Even if they can? and do, my already forced usage of a RGB termination to component termanation converter (I guess that anwered my question for me if I had been thinking it through) was problematic and degraded signal and I wondered if something like that could be applied to these situations.

Not sure if converters could be applied or if hardware/firmware paths are too ridgedly set to be doable in some sort of expensive little gaget addon. And I'm guessing here? that convertors VS interface might cover two diffrent matters.

[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited December 15, 2002).]

I think the rub is that changing the wire is trivial - changing the things the wire connects is the tricky part....

So to keep or not keep a 3x75 ohm RCA connector really pales in comparison to the other concerns. I really like the concept of one wire to rule them all, so to speak. It would really start putting the hi-end interconnect folks on slippery ground too, which is where most of them belong IMO.

How many times have you noticed your hi-end ethernet cable brightening up and improving your ZIP files?

The protocol that gets pumped over that wire is the part that is going to take thought. If they're as far along as they say that should be ready for a 1.0 release I guess.

The protocol that gets pumped over that wire is the part that is going to take thought

Another 'factor', just put a new Sony HD200 STB on line for a trial 30 days. In the forums its having issues with digital dropouts and rebooting. When the unit reboots if you are in the middle of your movie climax, - your going miss about 2 mins as the 200 rescans channels after boot. And all who have put time and thought into 'favorites' customization, - well, - its wiped. The jury is still out on this units glitcheness. SOME reboots have been traced to specific stations, (something incorrect/incompatable in the bitstream signal). Sony/Consumers/Station managers are e-mailing.

I think this hobby is making me tired.

Lena, Then take a break from all the worrying. Seriously, don't let this hobby give you a case of audiophilia nervosa.

I wouldn't worry so much about not having some sort of digital video input on the back of your television monitor. Even if over-the-air analog broadcast is completely replaced by digital broadcast, there'll always be some sort of set-top-box that will convert the zeroes and ones to beautiful component video that can be fed to your Grand Wega. After all, isn't that how you watch digital video sources (DVD, DSS, digital cable, etc) currently?

Best,
Sanjay

I wouldn't worry so much about not having some sort of digital video input on the back of your television monitor
Yes I agree, exactly why I made my last run of purchase decisions as I did and WAS pretty well sorted out.

Happiest with my 950/770. Least trouble least grief and most of all the least tradeoffs since nothing I’ve ever bought has ‘everything’ I want on it.
Happy with the GWI
Fairly Happy with the improvement in PQ on the DTC100
Happy with the Panny 91
Very satisfied with the Vienna Acoustics (although I have full intentions of always listening to everything as opportunity arises always)

Odds & Ends Left:
Upgrade hodgepodge interconnects shopping list for Outlaw brand.
Get the HD capable dish installed
Hang the 7th surround and adjust all placements accordingly.
Finish remote macros.

I WAS GETTING THERE.

The husband did ‘switch’ the GWI and gave it to the in-laws. At the end I had decided I needed to take her personally and show her 3 or 4 choices, (what my recommendation were and why) then let her choose what pleased her.
She ‘stuck’ and said, Absolute not I’m not going to let you. I said “Okay then I’ll have to pick…hope I get it right”.
She said, if delivery comes to the door, I won’t accept it…I mean it……Husband jumps in and says, ‘Okay, Mom…look you can do me a FAVOR, we’ll give you the 5 month old GW and I’ll buy this years model which comes with DVI, which you and Dad will never use She said okay.

The husband was DYING for DVI, For some reason (he came to this upgrade party late) He actually clicked into shopitis mode on this subject. It has bugged him endlessly that we had the DTC100 with a RGB to Component converter, which always left the GW with 2 tiny lines down left/right, (best we could tweak to) and he assumed certain degradation in pic due to the chintzy converter box.
We buy the GWII he looks at the Sony HD200, and says I want that too. I say lets wait he says no I WANT to get rid of that RGB converter, With GWII and new box we have DVI straight through. We’ll give the parents the old DTC100. They need it for the resolution. (turns out the parents have dish…so now I’m shopping for a Dish 6000 and trying to get there service upgraded to HD capabilities) whole nother issue.

The GWII is not ‘up to’ the level of the GWI. Have not been able to figure yet if this single unit ‘has issues’ or I’ll have to tweak it to best it can do (I truly think Sony cheaped out some parts on the GWII and I’m not very popular at AVS for my personal observations that the GWI was a much better unit. As current popular frenzy and PR releases said the new model was better. . ..(to be fair this unit may be off and I should just get the tech out since I don't have time to peg the issues) The HD200 is also glitchey, If we go with one of the alternative brand STB, (latest model) my husband looked at ..guess what no DVI it has RBG!!!! (back in the box).

Therefore my FIXATION at the moment with my long post above. I can see all the guys in audio jumping on the 1394 bandwagon in the forums as a ‘got to have’ for their future audio nivera. I just don’t see all this panning out like they vaguely think for a long/long/ time, when it comes to sorting out Displays/STBs/DVD player/CD players/ PVR’s etc. ….on & on.

Used to be if you bought the latest greatest (in video) it was component, as you upgraded each piece they tied together finally. Now, - nope…that unit you just have to have for other features, is more likely than not going to be the ‘other flavor’.

I just see the whole thing as so funny, when I see guys ranting about DVI and IEEE1394 and basing current purchases on it NOW. Best of luck to them because my husband fell for it on the DVI and it’s just not meshing…..Its really all very ironic.

The less knowledgeable (but more than average cause they read it in popular mechanics or the slick ad that says ‘THE next generation/future in da/da/da” consumer has already exhibited to me this frenzy. (I don’t consider that I know squat and continue to find out trial and error) but…. I had two friends go after me on my GWI purchase telling me I was insane for purchasing a display that cost that much and it did not have DVI or firewire on it. And they were ‘seeing’ this on the showroom floor. “ITS HERE NOW, your throwing your money at OLD technology…its outdated today!” (not kidding they really did and this on an LCD display) They themselves are not even buying right now, they just KNOW if they did they would not look at anything without it because if they have it….they can get ANYTHING else (latest models launching in whatever peripherals ) that they might want in the future.. I was behind the times and shooting myself in the foot. I thought the issue over, discarded it….under my personal column header of “If the systems up and running to a spec level I perceive as a vast improvement and that I can live with for YEARS who cares”. So I bought it. I loved it.

Now I have the ‘latest’ greatest, and a whole lot of headaches trying to make it work and look good. And I can’t even buy some of what I might consider because it won’t connect without chaining in degrading converters.

The way the governments going I think analog digital could very possibly still be around for a decade.

Learn from this sad but true tale. It’s not like the good old days when I finally bought my first DVD player, WOW what an improvement and it simply plugs in S or component. In other words if you don’t get DVI or firewire under your Christmas Tree…I wouldn’t loose any sleep over it.

Sincerely posted by your local,
Disgruntled Grinchy frustrated early adopter.

Thank you Sanjay, Your right and my normal philosphy. After I get all this latest sorted I'm just going to enjoy it (and feel very very lucky) however it comes out. Best M

Before everyone gets all het up about the "OK to use 1394 for passing DVD video and DVD-A between a player and a sink device such as a digital television and/or an audio product such as a processor" news, my master requests that you look at the one page in the 1.0 spec that deals with copy protection: Page GI3-13. It basically pushes the question of which CP scheme to use back on the manufacturer OR on the disc producer.

The likelyhood is that it will be some form of 5C/DTCP, but who knows? THe document simply allows for a scheme, but doesn't say which one.

By the way, be warned that the cost to manufacturers for the 1394 parts AND the cost of the software used to run it (not to be confused with the 1394 royalty, which is nominal) can add up VERY quickly.

This old dog anxiously awaits a single-wire connection between DVD-A machines and processors, but he ain't holding his breath -- let alone for something that I can slip in under my kibble budget.

But what do I know, I'm only a dog!

ARF ARF, says Iggy.

[This message has been edited by Iggy The Dog (edited December 16, 2002).]

Along those lines....

I have heard or read that one advantage that HDMI has over Firewire is the ability to handle uncompressed HDTV signals. But one #$@hole on another forum snapped at me saying that all HD signals are compressed.

I have no idea, but there must be something either in the future or in a certain format that would transmit HDTV in uncompressed form.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Because I really don't.

Thanks,

BTW, I've got upgradeitus too. I want a preamp/processor that can handle all this stuff, and a universal DVD player with digital outputs. Oh, and a new HDTV too.

He's right, they all are. For what purpose? As far as I know, there has never been any interest in transmitting, recording or storing (on consumer media) any HDTV signals. Whether you someday get your HDTV over the air, via satellite, through cable, on a tape or disc; it'll always be compressed. Why would you want a pipeline (for home use, no less) that can transmit uncompressed HDTV? There'd be no market for it.

Best,
Sanjay

thanks sdurani, sorry about venting. I actually wasn't questioning the guy, I was curious and think I remember reading somewhere that Firewire was not a good conduit for HDTV as it couldn't pass the signal - and that something like HDMI was the necessary choice for HDTV.

I'd like to think that I'm not losing my mind, but I certainly don't claim to be an authority on the subject.

This is so confusing...

Did the DVD-Audio Forum neglect to specify what security scheme should be incorporated on top of firewire? Is some additional security specification required, before the DVD-A firewire interface can be used between components built by different vendors?

The audiorevolution.com URL from above is dated December 13, 2002 and said the DVD-Audio Forum adopted FireWire in September for DVD-Audio transmission. But I thought they adopted firewire in concept a year ago, for transmitting digital DVD-A.

Again, this is so confusing...


[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 17, 2002).]

Actually, I've read that too (I think maybe in Widescreen Review once), but I've never seen a good argument to support that claim. You're not losing your mind. In this day and age of everything being delivered via lossy compression, the idea of experiencing uncompressed audio and video is a romantic notion that pops up from time to time. Unfortunately (except for things like DVD-A, which is losslessly compressed) it ain't gonna happen! Sorry, but even something as humble as my family snapshots have (more often than not) gone through lossy JPEG compression at some point. Like it or not, it's the future.

Best,
Sanjay

[/QUOTE]Sorry, but even something as humble as my family snapshots have (more often than not) gone through lossy JPEG compression at some point. [/B][/QUOTE]

I like that analogy. Thanks, it makes me feel a little better about the situation. I may still be a bit confused, but if I can buy a universal player with digital outputs, and a new preamp/processor with inputs and HDMI, then I think I'll be covered for a while.

Cheers,

Sorry, it's a bit hard for us poor pooches to parallel process, so I have to bark these out one at a time:

ralittle & sdrari: As they used to say in the breath mint commercials, "Stop! You're both right!" On one hand, the HD signals are (almost always) compressed in some fashion or another. However, the key is that with DVI/HDMI the signal from the incoming (compressed in some fashion) source is uncompressed to full bandwidth for transport to the display. THe purpose is so that it is (virtually) impossible to record due to the bandwidth requirements. Yes, in theory you could re-encode and record or re-transmit in another fashion, but that is why they will impose a a CP standard of some sort.

Will: The Version 1.0/Revision 0 standard IS dated September 2002, and one can only presume that it is what the Audio Revolution people are barking about.

ALL: As they say on TV: "But wait, there's more..." Having run out of paper for me to go on, my master put down a discarded copy of today's EE Times with an article about how the XCA copy protection standard, long considered to be out of the picture, may resurface thanks to Philips adopting it. My fellow cannine Nipper and his friends were instrumental in developing this, along with the doggies at Zenith, and it uses Smart Cards to offer renewable security as in satellite boxes. Also has the ability to allow copy never/copy once/copy always type of control, along with watermarking, which is what the studios really want. Gee, seeing that makes me wanna pee on it. Better than the Daily News!

Sorry to be the cause of confusion, but all a dog can do is bring the newspaper in from the porch, not write the stories.

But what do I know, I'm only a dog!

ARF ARF, says Iggy

Are you saying different vendors still don't have enough information to interoperate with each other in a standard way, unless they come up with some sort of side agreement with one another, for copy protection?

Thanks for the dog-gone clarification. Would you happen to know if it is available online?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited December 17, 2002).]

Will:

As noted, we only bring the paper in from the virtual cyber-porch and leave it to you BIG dogs to figure it all out. All I can do is read the page where it says: "When a DVD player transmits the video/audio data through IEEE1394 Bus (sic), there are some rules of the copy protection system. Refer to the scheme and its compliance rules."

To my dog-brain, that means that such schemes are allowed, but none is specified. Perhaps the Forum will leave it to the RIAA or others to decide which system to use.

AND REMEMBER: This is for DVD-A only, and does NOT obligate SACD to do the same thing if they don't want to.

Sorry, but it just isn't that simple. ANd don't bark at me if I tell you how much it costs to put all of this in a player or processor. It's equal to a couple of month's supply of Kibble snacks for me!

But what do I know, I'm only a dog!

ARF ARF, says Iggy

As long as you have a really strong front door...to keep the Ringwraiths out.

Wirewraiths?...

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Yes and if you look under the dark cloaks you find the CEO's of major studios.

Do they hiss?


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m-mmeyer
GO TWINS
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