You can't use the digital input with DVD-Audio -- the player's digital output is not getting the 96/24 (thank you, RIAA). You need to use the 5.1 analog input, and it doesn't say anything but "bypass" in that case.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

There is a such thing as a Digital Audio Disc (DAD) that will put out 24/96 digitally. It's really a DVD-V disc with a 24/96 track. There are some at www.chesky.com.

Thanks again Lena,

I guess I'm still not sure what you're hearing though when you disable the center when playing DVD-A's so it's hard to know what's going on.

It sounds like it's downmixing the center info, but it's still a guess I guess?

I have 'Under Rug Swept' on CD... I played track 9 'You owe me nothing'... and her vocals are very dominant in the center (except during the chorus where she overlays here vocals left, right, and center).

For my own test...
I then set the 950 to Center -Large, and switched the audio to DPLII-C (since there's no adjustments w/ DPLII-C it should act the same for you).

Her voice is very weakened in the center image since the 950 is trying to play into a center speaker but I don't have one. You can still clearly hear her singing from the mains but it's much quieter (too quiet) and distant sounding.

There's a 2-chan. version on that DVD-A you have right? (I hope), you should be able to do this same trick and then we should have the same reference point.

You'd play the 2 chan. PCM or DD version (if it has one) from the digtal out and set the 950 to convert it from stereo to DPLII-C. Then unplug the center chan. You should hear the same weakened vocals that I described.

How would you say that her vocals from that test compared to the test where you take the hi-res 5.1 DVD-A track and you set the center to NONE (on your DVD-A player, not the 950) and then unplug the center chan.? (testing this you should have the analog input on the 950).

"(My preference). I feel having a center available just broadens your options."

If the player is downmixing the center info I just shouldn't need one. If it doesn't then I'll HAVE (no option) to build a center speaker and buy another amp. Buying another amp to match my main speaker digital amp would be VERY costly (too costly probably) as would be making a center speaker to match my Newfrom Research 645 main speakers.

The center image I have on CD's and DVD's is razor sharp and inherently level and tonally matched to my mains (since it IS my mains). I've honestly never heard a center chan. that made a better center image or could blend as well with mains (usually 'cuz of the center's typical horizontal array design).

What 'options' do you gain other than being able to change the center's level (which I'd want to keep set at the same level as my mains)?

"Azryan, just go to the blackboard and write 100 times. Sony 60” LCD’s are not that bad."
At risk of you not helping me out w/ the phantom center thing anymore, I can't say that the LCD Grand Wega has good black level or invisible pixel gaps. Sorry. I didn't know you had one when I made my comments, but I still stand behind 'em.

Hey, nothing's perfect. I could tell you things that's are 'wrong' in every one of my components incl. my handmade subwoofers.

Azryan,

Very smart, to try to set a baseline from how my ears hear to yours!

If your out there right now. How many surrounds do you have on line? Shouldnt' effect as much as the fronts, but I'll run as many surronds as you have to keep the level in the room simalar as possible. Are you running surrounds or just your mains?

It sounds like it's downmixing the center info, but it's still a guess I guess?
I have 'Under Rug Swept' on CD... I played track 9 'You owe me nothing'... and her vocals are very dominant in the center (except during the chorus where she overlays here vocals left, right, and center).
I still have no expertise to decipher how much center track information is repeated in the FL/FR tracks on a DVD-A when using the 6-channel passthru, or how much might be the 950 downmixing?
Do you see what I mean? If all DVD-A’s REPEAT track inform across the 3 front’s channels of a 6-channel recording, you will not ever have the issue except to a minor degree. What you miss from disabling your center track is repeated in the L/R so you get the info anyway. IF that is HOW all DVD-A’s are recorded.

I do know now that our ears are on the same page. Absolutely, - after disconnecting center interconnect with 950 Center/large, Optical, DPLII-C. It was gutted! When I played Track 9, on the chorus or (refrain) portion of this song ONLY (when she’s repeated in the L/R’s ) it was passable only if I bumped the dB way up.
But never in the melody itself, especially as I am not familiar with the words to this track, it was practically indecipherable what words she was singing, - she was drowned in the background instrumentals badly.
Also (as you described) retreating so far in the distance as to appear as if she had gone far away over a hill away from the staging area.

There's a 2-chan. version on that DVD-A you have right? (I hope), you should be able to do this same trick and then we should have the same reference point.
Some DVD-A’s (not all) have you access a DVD menu to engage DTS or DD versions of the disc. On ‘Under Rug Swept’ there is no choice on the DVD menu; you just insert dic and play. It’s listed on the jewel as being capable of DD or (6 channel accesable by DVD-A capable player only).

How would you say that her vocals from that test compared to the test where you take the hi-res 5.1 DVD-A track and you set the center to NONE (on your DVD-A player, not the 950) and then unplug the center chan.? (testing this you should have the analog input on the 950).
No comparison, - If you were to hear (as you must have) what I heard on the DPL-II gutting test. I would advise no way without the center. On the 6-channel/analog/no-center test there was no degradation noted anything close to the extreme loss of information when performing the DPL-II/gutted center test. The differences with center enabled/disabled in the 6-channel/analog test paled in comparison. (Remember, - on the one disc I did have to cancel the center through the Outlaw to get rid of it) (I have a new 5th DVD-A I’ll check to see if I can disable center on this one sole through the Panny) There were differences as I detailed and only on certain tracks on the two classical discs would I rate the gain as more pleasing than playing with a center. The others were fairly even although I would have to optimize my speakers to run without the center. On the ‘Under Rug Swept’ disc, given the choice (after hearing both) of running my center or not, I did feel I lost a certain fullness without the center on line, but it was nothing compared to DPLII gutted.

"(My preference). I feel having a center available just broadens your options."
I’m really thinking of HT DVD-video’s on this I just can’t imagine running ‘The Matrix’ etc. without the full compliment, (however I’m never actually TRIED it, so I guess I should, - to really know what I’m talking about). Just referring to a general thought that you probably have a few selections that would always be optimal running with a center. (Not major, just some improvement) Vs the times (when you have choice) that the mains can spread the soundstage more favorably in the way you prefer.

If the player is downmixing the center info I just shouldn't need one.
And whether its downmixing or the recorded tracks (on a DVD-A) are duplicated across the fronts. I think you will enjoy it. On mine…the Panny 91/950/Beethovens, - it can be done.
The center image I have on CD's and DVD's is razor sharp and inherently level and tonally matched to my mains (since it IS my mains). I've honestly never heard a center chan. that made a better center image or could blend as well with mains (usually 'cuz of the center's typical horizontal array design).
I think I perceive the preference for not dealing with a center much better after purchasing the new Beethoven’s, (before I might not have understood). I really was not using my 2-channel bypass on the 950 before to any great degree. (Although part of my purchase decision centered on the fact this was a 950 feature). Now with the new speakers on line, - I am listening to 2-channel ALL THE TIME. Its incredibly nice.

What 'options' do you gain other than being able to change the center's level (which I'd want to keep set at the same level as my mains)?
True,….I do use this option when the recording itself needs it. But often am too lazy to bother and just ‘accept the source’ as it is fed. I feel having the center can help 'beef' up a poorly recorded disc.(illusionary).

I didn't know you had one when I made my comments, but I still stand behind 'em.
As you should……always.

At risk of you not helping me out w/ the phantom center thing anymore
You’ll have to forgive ME, I tweak ‘people’, but never out of ‘meanness’ (I’m not that sort). I do it because I’m feeling my oats, being inexcusably silly and playful. It never scared me to go toe to toe with a guy on an arguement face to face for the sheer and simple joy of interchange. (Nasty habit, picked up from spending far too many years when I could often be the sole female amongst some pilots, ex-military types, and skydiving characters, they were ALWAYS messing with each other, and I learned to ‘join’ in, partly in self-preservation).

Lena, Having listened to a few discrete multi-channel music discs, I agree with you that this is not an easy thing to determine. I've found some albums to be mixed so that the vocals are only in the centre channel; others are mixed so that the vocals are spread gently across the front three channels; yet others have the vocals only in the front L/R channels with subtle instrumental fill in the centre channel. Then of course there's the DVD-A of Natalie Merchant's 'Tigerlily', where you can hear her from all the channels. It's louder in the front centre, but it definitely is the exact same vocal track (not backing vocals) in all 5.1 channels. I'm sure this made sense to someone, somewhere. But this sort of inconsistency makes it next to impossible, based on listening alone, to figure out if a downmix is happening. That's to be expected with matrix decoding (like PL II and Neo:6), where the vocals extracted and sent specifically to the centre. But on discrete multi-channel mixes, where the vocals may not have been mixed into the centre channel, disconnecting the centre speaker may not cause the song to sound quite so "gutted" (if at all).

So Lena, instead disconnecting the centre speaker, let me ask you if you're willing to try something else. Follow:

If you set up the 950 as having no centre speaker, it is reasonable to assume that it'll split the centre channel content and send it to the front left & right channels. That means that you should hear the centre channel content coming out of the other two front speakers. But, as mentioned earlier, this may be hard to determine. However, setting the centre to "none" also means that nothing should be coming out of your centre speaker. Soooooo, if you could reach behind your front left & right speaker and simply detach the speaker wires, you'll only have the centre speaker operating up front. Make sense so far?

Now, having done that, set your 950 to "no centre" and play a DVD-A disc through the 6-channel analog inputs. Is anything coming out of your centre speaker?

Best,
Sanjay

set your 950 to "no centre" and play a DVD-A disc
Will do, if things get quiet this afternoon, today.
Won't the Outlaw just 'cut off' the center if I choose none. Regardless of downmixing?
How do you want the Panasonic during this. With center/no center?

When running the first test, center disabled in the Panny only on all discs (but the one which had to be disabled on the Outlaw Center menu also), I did walk over to my center, since the Beethovens 2-channel a great phantom, - and verifiy that the center was 'dead'.

With centre, please. This way you can tell whether the 950 disengages the centre even on bypass. (I have a friend whose pre-amp takes "analog bypass" very seriously; i.e., he can set centre to none, he can even unplug the unit, and the signal goes straight through to the output.)

Meanwhile I'll try to find a DVD-A disc that has exclusive centre channel content in order to test whether downmix is occuring.

Best,
Sanjay

"If your out there right now. How many surrounds do you have on line? Are you running surrounds or just your mains?"

I've got a sepp. surround amp and I just kept if off. I figure it'll only confuse these tests to have them on.

"If all DVD-A’s REPEAT track inform across the 3 front’s channels of a 6-channel recording, you will not ever have the issue except to a minor degree. What you miss from disabling your center track is repeated in the L/R so you get the info anyway. IF that is HOW all DVD-A’s are recorded."

That's too wierd?! That Alanis DVD-A just shouldn't be recorded like that? It must be SO diff. from the CD.
How can someone get a sharp center image of her standing there singing when her voice is almost as dominant in the mains? Must be like a giant wall of Alanis or something?

"I do know now that our ears are on the same page."

Ok. Great! So now I know that your DVD-A would sound totally different than what you and I did w/ the DPLII tests. Cool.

"On the ‘Under Rug Swept’ disc, given the choice (after hearing both) of running my center or not, I did feel I lost a certain fullness without the center on line, but it was nothing compared to
DPLII gutted."

Wow! I'm just shocked it was so subtle. I REALLY thought the two tests would end up the same-ish or similar. Wow!

"I’m really thinking of HT DVD-video’s on this. I just can’t imagine running ‘The Matrix’ etc. without the full compliment, (however I’m never actually TRIED it, so I guess I should, - to really know what I’m talking about)."

Heh... but you HAVE tried it! Every time you listen to CD's you have a phantom center.

The Matrix IS an awesome surround disc without a doubt, and you lose nothing when the center is mixed into the mains 'info-wise'.

Some people don't have a very good main speaker set up though and there's a cloudy 'gap' to the center image compared to an actual center, but that 'gap' (or blurriness) will be there on CD's too so even if people reject a phantom center for DVD's they'd still benefit from the improvement w/ their CD's.
You of course still need you surrounds on for the Matrix, but you might be suprised by the fact that CD's can sound exactly the same as having a rear pair of surrounds (though they can't ever phantom a rear center).

If you like Pink Floyd..., you should check our Roger Water's CD Amused to Death (as good as Dark Side or The Wall). It's recorded in Q-Sound.
If you're sitting dead center (like we all do when critically listening)... there's a ton of sound effects and voices, etc.. that sound like they're coming ONLY from the surround speakers.

If you turn your head to look at your surrounds the sounds pops back into the mains. Same if you sit slightly off center. There's a lot of CD's that do this but that CD's a must have IMO too.

"-that you probably have a few selections that would always be optimal running with a center. (Not major, just some improvement) Vs the times (when you have choice) that the mains can spread the soundstage more favorably in the way you prefer."

Hmm... it sounds like you think my phantom center spreads the center chanel info out making it wider than it would be with an actual center speaker?

If that's what you mean... I swear to you that it doesn't do that at all.

I wouldn't like it if it did that (I've own center speakers in the past, and heard many great set ups in hi-fi shops from Linn, Revel, B&W, etc..).

When a person is talking in the center it sounds like it's coming from a center speaker that doesn't exist. Not at all like the voice comes across from a wide soundstage. The image is sharp and 'person-sized'. As in not spread out.

"I think I perceive the preference for not dealing with a center much better after purchasing the new Beethoven’s, (before I might not have understood)."

The Vienna Acoustics Beethovens? Yes, GREAT speakers. You should try a phantom center with the Matrix to hear what it does. 100% solid open soundstage. I think you'll really love esp. if you have a less capable center than the VA's quality.

My Newform Research use the same Scan-Speak drivers as in the VA Mahlers (but with a 45" ribbon tweeter).

Did you buy a matching center for the Beethovens already? If not, you might save thousands if it's just you and your husband sitting in the center (as my wife and I do).
Saving $ on a center speaker/center amp can get you into a higher priced/quality set of mains.

This sounds like what you got for yourself (if you didn't get that matching center yet 'cuz it's a lot of money).

"You’ll have to forgive ME, I tweak ‘people’, but never out of ‘meanness’ (I’m not that sort)."

No. No. Not at all. Everyone here knows you never say anything mean.

And I think you know my mouth it quite large and I (at times) DO say things out of meanness! hehe

Thanks for adding to this too Sanjay!

Sanjay wrote,

"Having listened to a few discrete multi-channel music discs, I agree with you that this is not an easy thing to determine...."

MAN! This really shouldn't be this hard! These jerks really need to label these discs and player companies need to tells us what the heck their players are actually doing!

Can't wait for Outlaw to get into a universal player. I'm sure we'd know 100% what it's doing. Don't wait for the 'digital output' guys. If your player sounds great we'd just need a multi-chan preamp for it.

I've found some albums to be mixed so that the vocals are only in the centre channel; others are mixed so that the vocals are spread gently across the front three channels; yet others have the vocals only in the front L/R channels with subtle instrumental fill in the centre channel."

Downright WACKY! What are all these crazy engineers doing!?!

Then of course there's the DVD-A of Natalie Merchant's 'Tigerlily', where you can hear her from all the channels.- I'm sure this made sense to someone, somewhere."

Not us though right!?! Who are these people in the recording studios!?! And to think... here we are trying to carefully recreate the goofy things there're coming up with!

"Meanwhile I'll try to find a DVD-A disc that has exclusive centre channel content in order to test whether downmix is occuring."

That's be great! Too bad someone can't just burn a DVD-RW in MLP with JUST a center chanel recorded. Then we'd all know for sure what's going on here.

Must be like a giant wall of Alanis or something? Yes its a lot of Alanis, sort of like this:
http://www.art.com/asp/sp.asp?PD=10086446&RFID=249949

Seriously I went back and forth playing these DVD’s with ear on the center/L/R and there was mucho vocals in the L/R etc on most of them.

If you like Pink Floyd..., you should check our Roger Water's CD Amused to Death (as good as Dark Side or The Wall). It's recorded in Q-Sound. My husband was just asking me if I knew of or had ever heard of ‘quad sound’, commenting on how it was one of the earliest attempts at creating an acoustical emulation of surround. I’ll look it up.

it sounds like you think my phantom center spreads the center channel info out making it wider than it would be with an actual center speaker?
No. I know what you mean by a perfect rendition of a human vocalist dead center stage and razor sharp and realistic, -, that can pop out of excellent CD. I (think) I’m trying to refer to the fact that the center channel carries more sound information than just the human sized vocalist. And when the recording (or mixing) is not done by a talented studio, that filling that center area in with a center speaker can just beef up the thinness of the whole experience of a sub-par recording. You can get a bigger soundstage, in the sense of is it a 3 piece band (like) Vs orchestra (like) spread out and full, - when the recording is bad. And at times on certain DVD movies where the sound engineer has been very busy. An effect will pan from center then L/R then to the surrounds. (A 3 stop movement to audibly track) Does phantom center recreate that shift from center track to Fronts? (a car rolling by the side of the actor, bullit zinging etc.) I guess it could in theory if it can put a vocalist dead center who isn't there?

The Vienna Acoustics Beethoven’s? Did you buy a matching center for the Beethoven’s already? Thank you, - Yes and Yes. Its Hi Ho, - Hi Ho….off to work she goes….(to pay for them). (Actually what I lost was a retaining wall I was about to have built, - will have to put off for a bit, in fact this retaining wall has been bumped at least 3 times this last year in favor of AV purchases! (The old one is falling boom)
I couldn’t stand the center not up to the mains when in digital or 6-direct, (since I do use one) so I got the Vienna Maestro. I really like these speakers, I have trouble trying not to talk about them all the time at the moment…(like a kid at Christmas, as a matter of fact it IS my Christmas). They floor me every night. So does the Outlaw running them by the way. I will fess up, I wondered if the Outlaw would keep up with speakers which pass more clarity and detail out at the end point than my old set. The Outlaw floors me too, the only thing holding the 950 back turns out WAS my speakers. What’s coming out of the (new) speakers IS GREAT, and it is the Outlaw passing it. I’m sure these speakers are not the end all, but they are a nice stop on the path. I have not heard many of the speakers I would like to personally audition, they are just not located where I have time to travel and some I’m interested in I guess could be mail-order only….. But how much more detail can you hear than when a lip catches as singer breathes??? And the tone? Resonance and proper (musical instruments have color to me) of a guitar/bass strings/violins/harp/flute/piano you name it….is there. Another plus, (just for the visual…the cabinetry crafting is superb. Many many things that always bothered me in the vast round of speakers readily out and about to hear, are corrected or minimally -existent in the these Viennese boxes, there are just more suited to my personality.

The husband had come in and was on the AV. I think he may have just moved out to work on (yippy) our new AV display stand he broke down and started building, (the guy we wanted for this job retired). I’ll see if I can sneak some time to run Sanjay’s test.
Tomorrows out…I’m taking off to go ride for the day, so if not now may be a couple of days to get to it...(Business backs up when I’m gone).


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited November 18, 2002).]