So how have you that have the 45a/47a/47ai settled on setting it up with the 950? Are you using the 80Hz crossover in the 950 or are you using the Pioneer's manaagement?

For now I'm using the 950, and have set all speakers to Large in the Pioneer.

I did test phase of my sub, mine is also out, for now I'm just 'flipping' the phase switch depending on use. I do the more accurate eval as time / wife permits.

bbarden:
I have the 47ai set up with the bass management off, in other words, all speakers set to large. That's the only way To do it, since the 950's bass summation is always on.

KevinCBrown:
I went back and re-read your post, and got just the opposite results! I am usinging a Chesky DVD-Audio Test Disc, that has both DVD-Audio & Dolby Digital tracks. They have tests that give tones at your selected crossover frequency (I used the 80hz one) that say " in phase...out of phase". The
DVD-A track (6 channel analog in) has the first track (in phase) louder than the second one (out of phase).
I then switch to the DVD optical input, switch the DVD player from DVD-A to DVD-Video (done in an internal menu option, The 950 says Dolby D 3/2.1. I play the SAME test band for 80 hz., and again the first tone (in phase) is louder.
I don't understand why yours is out of phase.
Maybe the DD decoder (which you aren't using in your test) adds a stage of inversion?
However I'm glad I don't, because my sub has no phase reverse switch!

a crazy thought just occured to me. i am beginning to think that the 950 employs NO low pass filter to the .1 channel in 6 ch bypass mode.

are you guys using your sub's crossover in these phase tests?

i am also beginning to think that the 950 has NO digital crossovers, but rather, the selectable crossover points are selected digitally, but still only engage the analog crossovers, after d/a conversion.

so, when in a dsp mode with speakers set to small, when you select the high pass point, you automatically select the low pass point of the lfe channel, which is the same point. but, when in 6 channel bypass mode, the high pass/low pass point (switch 'on') is preset at 80hz...but... only for the 5 channels. the .1 channel has no low pass filter applied. if you aren't using the sub's filter, in dsp mode, you have a phase corrected L/R4 low pass on the lfe, and in 6 channel bypass, you have no filter at all.

if you are using your sub's low pass filter, in a dsp mode, you have cascading filters and, in 6 channel bypass mode, you have only the sub's filter.
i guess trying the test with the sub's crossover in and with it bypassed might shed some light.

this is just a thought, nothing more. it occured to me as i tried to find info in the manual about the digital crossovers (of which there is none).

[This message has been edited by bossobass (edited October 15, 2002).]

SOP- I don't know why you are getting the results you are. Both Will and now bbarden have gotten what I did. One of these days, I'm gonna order that Chesky DVD-A test disc, and then I'll let you know why/how if that one is any different. Remember, my tests have always been with either linear PCM from the DVD player, or 2 channel analog from the DVD player, but then A-to-D'ed, processed, then D-to-A'ed all in the 950, or the L + R front 2 channels of the 5.1 analog inputs. Maybe DD/DTS is also out of phase with the stereo (digital & analog) inputs, but in phase with the 5.1 analog inputs. Hard to believe, but could be true... One more thing, you have to have the distance to the mains in the DVD player set to be close to or exactly the same as the distance to the sub. Otherwise, you could be thinking that the LFE/mains are in phase, whereas the crossed-over low freqs from the mains to the sub (in the 950) are still out of phase. (If that makes sense.)

BoB- "i am also beginning to think that the 950 has NO digital crossovers, but rather, the selectable crossover points are selected digitally, but still only engage the analog crossovers, after d/a conversion."

That can't be true. The 950 *only* has an 80 Hz analog crossover, but it has 40, 60, 80, 100, 120 Hz digital crossovers (I might be missing 1 or 2 there). Also think about the Rotel. No analog crossovers, but still the same (or close to the same) choices for the digital ones. That's because Outlaw added the analog 80 Hz a la the ICBM to the 950, but both pre/pros have the same Cirrus DSP engine, hence the same digital crossovers.

I also have all speakers set to large in the 45a, and am using the analog crossover in the 950.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited October 15, 2002).]

SOP- The more I think about it, the more I bet that the phase test on the DVD-A test disc is simply between the LFE signal sent directly to the sub, and the mains. So the analog crossover in the 950 isn't even used (or used very little; i.e. the signal to the sub is dominated by the LFE and not by whatever could be crossed over from the mains). Any info on the disc in terms of how that test is structured?

Last week, I even "asked Chesky," if I wanted to get a disc in *addition* to the DVD-A test disc, which would they recommend between "The Super Audio Collection & Professional Test Disc" (not an SACD, but a DAD, a DVD-V disc with up to 24/96) or "An Intro to SACD," but I haven't heard anything yet.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited October 16, 2002).]

Bosso,

I haven't really tried getting into this phase thing yet, perhaps this weekend. But, I can tell you that I'm quite certain there is a LPF on the sub channel in 6 ch bypass. My previous unit was a Kenwood receiver (VR-409) that has a 6 channel bypass. When playing certain DVD-As, I'd get snare drum, high frequency reverb and early reflections, and even vocals in the sub. I would always have to engage the filter on my sub to remove (and consequently lose) the material. With the 950, I have no need to engage the sub's filter because the the pre/pro is doing the filtering for me. Several months ago, I asked Outlaw about this very subject because of my experience with the DVD-As and the Kenwood and Scott reported to me that the 950 has a LPF set at 120 hz on the 6 ch bypass sub channel. The ICBM has a 150 hz LPF on its sub channel.

Kevin,
Yes, the test is between then LFE & the mains. BUT, you have to select a test track based on you crossover point. There are selections just like the 950 has for the digital crossover.....40,60,80,100 hz. I selected 80, and played it. It then sends an 80 hz tone, which, because its exactly at the crossover point, will come from BOTH the sub & the mains, making a phase test between the mains & sub possible. I don't think there is ANY signal on the LFE. I could check if you'd like by pulling that cable.
This weekend, I'm going to try to redo the test using a stereo PCM disc the way you are with stereo PCM coax vs stereo input via the 6 Ch Direct to see what happens.
I didn't know Chesky was into SACD! I have the DVD-A test disc and a DAD test disc (the DAD is the only DAD I have, and can't get the 950 to run it through DPL2...have another thread here on that).

Bosso- the 80hz filter IS there, or I wouldn't get any output on this phase test.

Kevin,
I forgot....I DO have the distances set on the 47ai. By the way, my manual says the the distances do NOT apply to SACD playback. Is the 45a the same? This implies we STILL don't have complete bass management in a "universal" player yet. Also, the bass output from the LFE is week. I have to turn the level to max, and the main channels to minimun to get them to match. At first I thought is was a problem with the 47ai's tone generator. But then I saw a post on the HTF with the same problem. I checked the levels with the Chesky DVD-A disc, and yep the LFE channel output is weak.

dollarbill: THANX for the info! none of my sacd discs have high freqs into the lfe channel....you answered my 1st question.

kcb: i am sure the cirrus chipset includes digital crossovers (lex, kenwood, marantz, rotel use it). i just found it odd that the crossover info is listed in the preamp analog section of the specs page. and, nothing in the specs about the 80hz 'analog' filters. i appreciate your help.

SOP- I finally "matched levels" with Avia on the 45a analog outputs. I didn't have a problem with the sub. It is lower, but I could still get it to match the other channels. For example, on the 950, I have all levels within a dB or 2 of 0 (not "referenced", just "levelled"), and my sub ends up at -3 dB. On the 45a, I had to put the sub at + 2 dB to match the rest of the channels. Maybe there's more than 1 iteration out there.

Yeah, I gots to get me my own DVD-A test disc...