[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 05, 2002).]

Wow! Very nice!

That is very nice! I took a look at some of the other pictures too. Where is the mountain bike shot at?

Great pics! What type of speakers are you using? I was curious, with those subs when you play the scene in Jurasic Park where the T-Rex steps and you see the water in the glass vibrate - if you really have a glass of water in the room does it vibrate as well?

WOW!! I'm droooling!!

Woah. Impressive room (and equipment)! Somewhat overshadows my cozy little setup . The "house" enclosure on the projector is a fun touch. I'm also curious about the speakers you are using.

Oh, and there are still some pics of charlie's theater rattling around the web...

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

The mountain bike picture was taken in the Sierra Mountains, outside of Fresno, CA, as was the snow scenes. The others were taken along Route 66, in the Mojave desert.

That "projector house" has a few very practical uses, one being that little annoyance we have here in CA, called earthquakes It also cuts down considerably on the fan noise from the projector.

My main left and right speakers are Altec Lansing "Voice of the Theatre" A7-500s which have been very modified and tweaked. They have a JBL diffraction super tweeter crossed over at 11Khz mounted on top of the midrange horn. The center speaker is the same Altec midrange horn as the left and rights, but with JBL 4412 cabinets on either side, used for their 12" woofers only. The surrounds are JBL 8330s. These are the surrounds used in the majority of cinemas and dubbing stages. The Altecs were designed originally for use behind the screen in cinemas, but I have modified them extensively to tame them and flatten their response. The subwoofers are JBLs. There are two cabinets on each side, back to back in bi-polar connection, with 18" drivers. I just tested them a few days ago, and they were capable of 120+ db at 18Hz. The room takes it very well - I make very liberal use of 'earthquake putty' to keep pictures on the wall, and the pots on their shelves

Charlie:

Very cleaver arrangement! It appears that you would get a very smooth and enveloping sound with your setup. I would imagine you get some bonus sub activity from the walls acting like secondary 'diaphrams"

my mind races....

how much for the 'voice of the theater' logo?

you've said you use 60hz high pass on the mains and the low pass goes to the stereo subs. i think you said you use 120 for the center hp point(?), but what point do you use for the rear surrounds?

i KNEW i'd see open reel tape machines somewhere in those pix.

what about sacd/dvd-a?

i didn't get my invitation yet, but i'll RSVP now anyway!

just way, way, too, too cool as it gets, soundhound!!!

That was a nice looking trail. I've only been biking in Colorado in the Crested Butte area (north of Aspen). I'm in Illinois so I don't get to see many hills.

Anyway, you really have 4 18" subs in there? I bet that's a lot of fun. Maybe in 5 years I'll have a place to start doing something with. I agree with gonk in that the projector house is pretty cool. You aren't, by chance, the source of all the earthquakes are you?

Bosso:

Thanks for the kind remarks!

I got the vintage Altec "Voice of the Theatre" decal when I worked for Altec Lansing back when they were in Anaheim, and were a _real_ professional sound company.

I haven't made the plunge to SACD yet. I'm waiting till a 2nd generation combination player comes out, so I can upgrade my DVD in one fell swoop. I the meantime, I regularly have multi-channel masters of film scores to keep me occupied.

I have my surrounds running full range - they can easily take it. My center is set 'small' with a 150Hz crossover frequency. Even though it can be run full range, I like the 'widening' effect that having the high crossover gives.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 23, 2002).]

Now that you mention it, the Northridge earthquake _did_ occur while I was watching "Twister"......

If you prick us do we not bleed?
If you tickle us do we not laugh?
If you poison us do we not die?
And if you show us your setup
shall we not be jealous?
(Sortoffrom…….- William Shakespeare)

No more tears now;
I will think upon revenge.
- (Mary Queen of Scots)

if we ever have an Outlaw meet I vote to put your place on the list, we won't push any buttons...really


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited November 12, 2002).]

Seems an appropriate revenge would be to invest in the stock of our local power utility...all that equipment, and the tube amps in particular, use a 'significant' quantity of power.

Fantastic. Do the curtains cover the sound treatments at that end of the room?

-- good ol' Will, even paraphrased...

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

SoundHound - Amazing set-up. I never will "cast doubt" on your measurement test/meas equipment again:> I say the first ever Outlaw Home Theater Meet HAS too be at your place!! Summer 2003!!

In fact, I just realized your here in LA. Me too, hint hint:> Live in Chino Hills/work downtown. Crap forget summer 2003, how bout winter 2002:>

Yes, they do. Behind the curtains are thick packing blankets. There are also curtains along the left wall. The curtains themselves are also very thick. To balance this on the right wall, there is a blanket hanging, which you can see part of - that has 1/2" foam attached to it's back. The room does not exibit any slap echoes, due to the acoustic treatments, and the peaked ceiling. The beams also break up the sound well.I went to a lot of trouble during the design phase to get the acoustics right.

Great Room Sound,My system is similar to yours,you see I have the JBL Studio Monitors 4430,(two way in Bi-amp mode)for center channel I am using the 4425,and for the surrounds I am using the same 8330's. The 1050 is being used as a pre-amp,with Carver Audio Amps,Adcom amps,and for sub,I am using the SVS 20-31 C PLUS.Also I am installing my first 110"screen at this time,will post some pictures as soon as my room is completelly done.( I am getting 119 db's at 11ft )

Eurorom:

Yep, I bet those JBLs sound great !! They can take anything that any movie can dish out. Well, I should say _almost_ anything - I blew up a friend's JBL subwoofer yesterday - oops!!

If you were to look behind the screen at a movie dubbing studio, you'd see JBL speakers, same for most cinemas.

Please do post some pictures when you get them. What projector are you using?

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 13, 2002).]

Davis:

That has got to be the 'mother of all commutes', even by L.A. standards! My wife has a long commute also, and puts almost 60 miles on her car going to and from work every day. Do you take the 60 or the 91 'freeway' downtown?

People who don't live here must gasp in horror over how spread out we are - of course the earthquakes kinda re-arrange things occasionally. The right one could shorten the distance you drive



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 13, 2002).]

Commuter Rail (Metrolink) every day (or I would have sold/moved several years ago:> Its the 60 or the 10 when I do drive in. Peace and quiet + tons of open space are REALLY important to me (grew up in Iowa), and Chino Hills is alot like Iowa.

Earthlink records a "page not found" now when trying to access the home theater pictures.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

I needed the web space for another file.....

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 15, 2002).]

Thanks!

I plan to do some more tweaking, but yes, other than the obvious early reflections (which I plan to tame with wall treatments) it does sound pretty 'seamless' from most reasonable viewing positions. I thought about setting up a 'stereo only' system for music, but with the new modes and DVD-A/SACD I'm reconsidering. Once I get good measurements I'll post'em.

One downside - the room behind the living room is my office and so I cannot have a CRT near that wall...

"One downside - the room behind the living room is my office and so I cannot have a CRT near that wall..."


You didn't find that out the hard way did you charlie? I'd almost be surprised if you could have a monitor in next room with all the subs you have in that wall. I think that little inconvenience would be well worth it for the setup that you have though.

SH:

I also tried to get an irregular shape in the HT area as much as other constraints allowed, but I'm pretty new to acoustic treatments and I feel I could really use more knowledge in that area. Any good resources on the web (or elsewhere) you can recommend? Other words of wisdom? I was looking at building some fabric covered (for appearence) traps with 2.5" acoustic foam, but I'm still investigating.

F. Alton Everest has a book called "Acoustics" ( I think that's the title) that is the bible in this area. It can be had thru Mix Magazine bookshelf bookstore on the web. I don't know the URL but I'm sure a search will find it. It will give you much more knowledge than you ever wanted on the subject

Generally, keep the room irregular. Clap your hands as you walk around the room, and if you hear any slap echoes, put something on one or both of the walls in that area until the slap is gone. You don't want a completely dead room, nor a really live one. A reverb period of about 1 second or less is good. Put the most acoustic treatment near the front speakers on the walls and floors to alleviate reflections. Near the surrounds, you might want to keep it somewhat live, to enhance the sense of envelopment from those speakers. By looking at your setup, I think you are well on your way to the ideal acoustic surroundings. It looks like your room might be on the live side, which is good. If that is the case, you can put hangings on the wall and throw carpets in strategic locations to tame the room to your liking.

Have fun!

"Master Handbook of Acoustics" maybe? He seems to be pretty prolific in this area of endeavor....

Yep, that's it.

Soundhound did you erase your HT pics or what? I don't see a link anywhere?

I have a pic of my HT on the AVSforum, but before I link it here, I have to switch it for a new one showing my dual Tempest sonotube subs. There's kinda big... 18" dia. x 7 1/2' tall.

Covered in Red Birch veneer (real wood not vinyl) matching the reddish earthy tone of my room. And finished just in time for Attack of the Clones.

My previous dual Shiva's (only 4 1/2' tall -heh) were tuned a little too high for that super deep sub 20Hz stuff like that killer THX intro and (to a lesser extent) the pod race. They 'got by' but I wanted more headroom. And an excuse to build some more subs!! heh

I had to free up some of my webspace for the transfer of some work related files....


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 23, 2002).]

Soundhound,

Why ask people to post their HT pics and then take your off you web site?

Mine's up on the AVSforum. I'll post a link after you put your pictures back up (someone can find it if they try though).

So what's so big about that logo anyway? Doesn't look like much to me, or am I missing something? Puke-ish yellow and white diagonal stripes with a scripty black font over it? I don't get it? This doesn't looks like something I'd hang up to look cool?

Everyone (who got a chance to see them) was so impressed by your HT... This 'logo link' must not have anything to do with it right?

azryan - disc space can be a problem sometimes, which is why he had to take his pics down.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

azryan:

I'm sorry, but work _does_ have to take priority to play, and I do use my webspace to transfer file to other editors who I work with, files that are too big to Email.

You're obviously too young to know the significance of the "Voice of the Theatre" logo. It is from movie theatre sound equipment used in cinemas from the early days of sound motion pictures. I wouldn't diss something so quickly just because you don't happen to know the significance of it!

Soundhound, kind of like how a red light flashing back and forth across the front of a certain vehicle means so much to those of us who grew up in the eighties?

Yes and it bothered me that the "turbo boost" had a button on the dash?! I mean come on people. But I suppose if you are going to break from reality you might as well go all the way!


------------------
m-mmeyer
GO TWINS
My DVD's

Hell, I remember when movie theaters actually had CURTAINS in front of the screen - what a novel concept

The theater my wife and I went to in Dublin last summer had a curtain! It moved to! Now a days only custom HT have curtains. The theater was massive to, 700 some seats not quite stadium but did rise up in back so you didn't have to look at somebody's head. It had great sound despite being so big. It was a great movie experience, but it might have be the location.


------------------
m-mmeyer
GO TWINS
My DVD's

Yep. I don't think many people realize how thrilling it was to attend movies when theaters were 'movie palaces'. Road shows had overtures, then the lights would slowly dim, as the curtain opened on the MGM lion - Showmanship! Now your're lucky if the pimply-faced usher who runs the projector bothers to dim the lights at all

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 23, 2002).]

Now you would be hard pressed to find anyone running the projector most theaters are ran by computer and nobody but a select few venture in the booth and then only to fix a problem. Many years ago my wife worked at a theater and they had just switched over to a computer based projectors she always said it wasn't the same as having somebody sitting there monitoring what was going on. Oh well this is progress good and bad.




------------------
m-mmeyer
GO TWINS
My DVD's

Last time I was at the El Capitan theatre here in Los Angeles, I remeber them still having a 'curtain show' like the old movie palaces used to have. First there was the heavy outer curtain; it would rise, creating cresent shaped pleats as it went up. Then was the almost translucent inner curtains, which would split horizontally to reveal the screen. To signal going from the trailers to the main feature, this inner curtain would do a quick open/close routine. I think there may have also been a third, black-mask curtain that adjusted with the screen's changing aspect ratio; but I'm not absolutely sure about that one.

Anyway, very classy and old fashioned. Made me so nostalgic.

Best,
Sanjay

C'mon Soundhound,

"I'm sorry, but work _does_ have to take priority to play, and I do use my webspace to transfer file to other editors who I work with, files that are too big to Email."

Hey, YOU'RE the one who started this thread asking people to put up pics of their HT's, then you yourself don't do it!?!, instead leaving only that ugly logo pic up which is a very LARGE file.

You could easily store several HT pics in that 'same amount of space'. THAT'S why I was wondering what that logo had to do w/ this 'HT pics' thread YOU started.

Why don't you quit making excuses about you not having enough webspace and put the pics in the space that logo takes up OR on a FREE site like AVSforum like I mentioned I did (or lots of other options)?

"You're obviously too young to know the significance of the "Voice of the Theatre" logo."

Sure.

"It is from movie theatre sound equipment used in cinemas from the early days of sound motion pictures. I wouldn't diss something so quickly just because you don't happen to know the significance of it!"

I'm still waiting to hear how it's significant. Anyway... I 'dissed' it 'cuz the logo's very ugly and isn't an HT pic.

Here you guys have been talking about when theaters used to be REAL theaters... Beautiful, ornate movie palaces (something I'm old enough to remember, and still know of a few that remain today).... instead of the classless multiplexes that we typically find today.

I just don't see that ugly logo fitting into the look of these 'classic' movie theaters we all wish were more prevalent today. I can't imagine an ugly sign like that would be displayed in any respectable 'movie palace'.

I guess my dislike of this logo broke your heart and so you needed to insult my age (despite you not knowing it?) and my lack of knowledge of ugly movie audio signs?

Oh well. Nice HT pic thread. Worked out great.

I really don't care if you like it or not!! It just has significance to those who are interested in the sound equipment that was used in the old cinemas, admittedly a niche interest that you don't share. I supplied in response to a query from another person in the forum who recognized it, and wanted one. Get over it.


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 25, 2002).]

Well FWIW I think it's a cool chunk of history.

Azryan,

Shame on you. You know how I feel about this stuff. I leave the forum for a few days to tend to my ‘Nightingale’ duties and come back to the forum for a little rest and relaxation and what do I find, more blood and gore all over the floor.
throwing arm around your shoulder and walking you gently away from the site of the accident
Step into my office, the Doctor is now in.

“Puke-ish, an ugly sign, (not to be displayed in) any respectable”

Try……Never did enjoy their choice of colors in that logo.
………..I was amazed at its popularity, I did not find the artwork pleasing
………..I wonder if that would clash with a movie palaces décor, I suppose it might work in the Lobby….

I’m afraid if I were Soundhound, even if I had been so inclined to repaste my link when I had the time and space. If I were him I might just have to let you ‘wonder’ what it looked like after ummm…..that discussion.

And that’s a crying shame. They were pics to drool over……..

Is that color _really_ what puke looks like???? I'll pay more attention the next I'm "driving the porcelin bus"

The color is supposed to be _gold_! I guess the color got lost somewhere in cyberspace.......

Now that's just gross!

if you are interested in movie palaces... check out www.historictheatres.org - it's the website of the Theatre Historical Society of America. altho, I'm in Canada (Vancouver, BC) I belong and support this great organization. have a look and prepare to drool and dream

Seattle has a small 3 screen movie theatre that was built a couple of years ago, in the Ballard area. in the main theatre (this is an independent done RIGHT!) they have a traditional "waterfall" curtain... so classy (similar to the waterfall motorized in Radio City Music Hall).

I was a projectionist as a teenager back in the carbon arc days. 20 minute reels, changeovers, etc. it was a blast. "Voice of the Theater" was an Altec Lansing trademark for their huge horn speakers.

check out the THSA website - you can get lost in there for hours, going through links etc.

We have a wonderful "Orpheum" theatre here that just celebrated it's 75th birthday. It was an original vaudeville/movie palace that was saved and restored as our main Symphony Hall a couple of decades ago. It's still so wonderful exploring the place .

it's all one of the reasons we bought a 950... for our own little movie palaces no matter how plain or how how plush they may be

Thanks for the link!

Here in Los Angeles, we are more likely to restore a 'historic' McDonalds hamburger stand than something like a movie theatre There is the El Capitan theatre in Hollyweird that is great. The only problem is that it is owned by Disney, and they have a tendency to play more than a few Disney films; not my cup 'o tea.

Congratulations! You are the _Second_ person to recognize the "Voice of the Theatre" logo! I guess all the others died off years ago......

From one doggie to another!

SoundHOUND:

One wishes that they'd let us doggies into theaters, as I have heard (but of course, can't get into) that they have re-done the Egyptian Theater in Hollywood. At least one other that is kept.

On another front, though not as historic, there is the newly renovated Dome, but alas I can't get in there either.

Hey, who doesn't remember A7 as a cultural benchmark for early 'philes? Didn't everyone you knew have two of them in a dorm room for listening to acid rock at incredibly loud volumes? (Before my doggie days, of course! As my master says, if you say you remember it, you really weren't there!)

But what do I know, I'm only a dog?

ARF ARF, says Iggy.

I just saw "This is Cinerama" at the Dome a month or so ago. Interesting to see 'failed technologies' up close and personal. Saw something at the Egyptian theatre, but was put off somewhat at the 'updated' decor. Oh well.

Gotta go, my dog is peeing on my horns......

Lena,

Here we got along so well just recently and now you get me wrong here?
I got ticked at soundhound for starting this thread asking people to put up HT pics and then he takes his down himself. I guess I'm the only one who sees how stupid that was.

Then he keeps saying the reason it that he doesn't have the webspace even though that 'logo' takes up a TON of webspace (it's a large file -as I already said).

Do you dismiss or ignore this point too -like he did? Why??

The space it takes up compared to his HT pic that could be there was my main point about the logo, not it's looks.

I also mentioned areas where he (or anyone) could put up pics for FREE solving this 'lack of webspace' excuse he kept posting.

He of course ignored this good suggestion and instead insulted me for the 2nd time.

Did you miss that Lena?

Remember I never insulted him yet (only that 'logo'-unless he designed it which I'm sure he didn't).

If that puke yellow color is supose to be 'gold' then I'll only call that logo plain or dull.

"I’m afraid if I were Soundhound, even if I had been so inclined to repaste my link when I had the time and space. If I were him I might just have to let you ‘wonder’ what it looked like after ummm…..that discussion."

Don't you see... that's what he ALREADY did to everyone before I ever posted in this thread.

I was mildly interested in his pics before, but now I could care less. I'm just posting to your so you hopefully understand my points more clearly.

"-And that’s a crying shame. They were pics to drool over…….."

My HT's very nice looking, so even if his is World's Better (which I doubt based on his love of movie theater sound which is typically poor/awful compared to a quality home set-up), I don't care anymore.

Everything in life is not a contest, and his HT is very cool, not just from a performance point of view (which I suspect is also true) but also from a decor/theme point of view. It managed to be functional and personal. Not my taste, but I certainly respect the quality of implementation and wouldn't turn down a chance to visit.

Also, I find it useful to remember that in many cases, it's not what we say, but how we say it that matters. Just FYI and YMMV.

azryan, why do you insist on behaving this way? Surely you have at least one ounce of tact in you? Maybe you don't care if other people like you, but for the sake of civil conversation, why not try to at least be pleasant? Every time I see your name on a post, I have to prep myself for a good laugh at your pompous attitude. Your behavior borders on "trollish", and if you aren't careful, it could lead to your banishment. Despite the fact that I don't always agree with you, I think that at least occasionally you make a good point, so you are worth "keeping around".

What is making me laugh now is that 1) you think that you have been insulted first (go back and read you first post - I don't consider "puke-ish" to be a friendly term when describing someone else's possessions). 2) I honestly don't understand why you are getting so overly concerned about this thread. He obviously has limited web space, and since the thread pretty much flopped anyway (notice there was only one other post about a home theater), there really probably isn't much of a reason to re-post the pictures. It's his web space and his pictures. If he were really concerned about YOU seeing them, he would have probably re-posted them. It's obviously not a high priority for him (as it apparently is for you).

I know that my posting this isn't going to in any way change your behavior, and you'll probably get a laugh from it, but I think it deserves being said.

Jason


[This message has been edited by JasonA (edited November 26, 2002).]

Wow, I never realized it was illegal to manage your webspace the way it suits you best! I guess there are laws somewhere (are there "stupidity laws"?) making it a crime to delete a post without first consulting azryan.

Azryan, he does have a right to change his mind. Soundhound said he needed the space for something else and he will most likely put the pics back up when he can. Yes he did start a thread asking for others to post pics of their home theater pics, but he took his down out of necessity. Soundhound can post them elsewhere if he wants to, but maybe he doesn't. He really likes that picture and some others here do too. I'm too young to really understand its meaning, but I know the other guys get it.

You do not call people names, I have never seen you do that anywhere I can recall on the Outlaw message board, but there are other ways to insult people. You tend to treat others like incompetent fools. You do make a lot of good points, but have a tendancy to spout off at every little thing that is not absolutely perfect in your eyes. Cut people some slack. It's really quite nice to be on a message board that keeps it's discussions civil. A lot more gets accomplished that way.

ARF ARF, says Iggy….. ARF ARF ARF says Iggy
What is it Iggy I’m working go away!
ARF ARF, says Iggy
What?! Whats that you say……. Timmy’s in the well?
ARF, says Iggy.

OKAY lets go get the rope (and the flamesuit)


Remember I never insulted him yet (only that 'logo'-unless he designed it which I'm sure he didn't).
Your right and that’s a great improvement from attacking directly. And I agree I miss the link, as it was fun to look at. But that is SH’s personal business for whatever personal reasons. Humans are so funny in the sense that they become very proprietorial over things, and even ideas. And when someone posts they don’t often relish something in their post being aggressively degenerated. You don’t have to like something, or even say you like it. My choice most often….it's better left unsaid, or couched in polite terminology if you’re trying to relay information. My examples: Not my favorite color….etc. was an poor attempt at humor to remind you of MY cardinal rule. You catch more flys…….
Azryan, I love your posts, We all have equal rights to be here, until THE Outlaw comes in and busts up the town dance. And we are all VERY DIFFERENT sorts of Outlaws. I have always collected very different acquaintances I love people tall, short, thick, thin, old, young and yes even AV people (strange lot)….I find it makes life more exciting and broad. But when very different sorts gather (even in cyberspace) it’s wise to tread slowly carefully and leave puke-ie sticks at home.

Here we got along so well just recently.
I thought we always ‘got along’ and until I drive you stark raving bonkers (rather more likely than not) -- always will. I hope you forgive me I just have that overwelming female urge to tidy male egos and forum wars up.

Okay, Okay, here's my Home Theater:

http://home.earthlink.net/~soundhound/MyHT.jpg

Hey guys, I totally understand what you're saying.

I'm very direct with people and have strong opinions at times (all the time???). Too strong for some. Maybe 'MANY', but like people noted... I don't jump out and call people names, etc... I challenge ideas and sometimes instead of people just defending thier own opinions/ideas they instantly get mad at me and some others look at me like I'm just a troublemaker.

I don't get mad at this though, I just take it as a challenge.

I can see how people might think this about me (I really do), but (like when Lena posted to me) I just try to re-state my opinions/ideas.

I did call the logo 'puke colored', but someone tell me it isn't? Honestly, I couldn't think of a better wording for the color, and I'm a graphic artist, so I think I know a bit about color/logo design.

It's not like I saw his (from what I hear 'great looking') HT and said "oh that's garbage".
I don't do stuff like that, so please don't lump me into a group of people like that. Trolls who get their kicks attacking people. That's not me, and those of you who've read many of my posts know I'm not like that -even if they don't like they 'way' I post.

I didn't mean to insult Soundhound directly with this logo remark, but I guess I did.

I honestly 'would have' said I was sorry. I have been known to appologize in the past, but Soundhound certainly didn't take any 'high road' with how he interpreted my remark, and decided to flat out directly insult me. And twice. I still have not (and will not) insult him back though. But I will have to pass on saying 'sorry' if anyone thought I should?

Now I can take the insults and don't hate the guy in any way... so no big deal to me, but I hope some of you guys understand my point of view on this -even if you disagree with it.

I just see things differently and speak up. I think more people should do this, and not be so worried about offending someone. We shouldn't all be so fragile IMO, and there's things to be taught by a challenge.

So much of what we know about audio/video comes from challenge and debate. If we all just posted 'Look at my new speakers' 'Wow, I bet those sound great!' 'I'm a happy new owner of a 950!' 'Welcome to the family!' we'd never grow or learn anything new.

Pretty much every advanced audio idea that I've learned (not that I'm claiming I know 'so much' or anything) has been from people challenging me about things I've posted.

So if I'm right... someone else learns something, and if I'm wrong... I learn something -that I'll probably just pass along to others in the future.

Without 'issues' no one learns anything, but dealing with 'issues' isn't what some people want on theses forums. I made a thread a while ago here about this very point suggesting a 'debate forum section' and spoke about many of these same points I make now.

For example... Gonk posted pics of Charlie's HT room in the past (as I think he did again here). Pretty much everyone went 'drool' over them, but (while I think the room looks nice) I actually said some negative things about his speaker layout (in-wall speakers very far apart, etc..).

Some probably took this as me being a jerk or something along those lines, but it wasn't meant to insult him, but to help him improve his system as he said he was looking to build new speakers some time.

Why didn't anyone else think it was odd that Soundhound took all his HT pics down yet left one HUGE logo file? I think maybe I'm the only one who even realized this point.

I tried to help him too by mentioning FREE webspace for his HT pics, but he ignored that. Oh well. EVERYONE who didn't get to see his HT pics misses out -not just me. I thought of that too -not that I claim to be so altruistic, but I wasn't just thinking of myself. I tought he wanted to show off his room. That was the whole point of the thread!?

As some have said... Soundhound of course has EVERY right to do whatever he wants. I totally agree. I haven't and wouldn't ever say he doesn't.

It just struck me as silly that he started this 'show your HT pics' and won't do this himself.
I guess I'm a... "-if you say you're going to do something -you do it" type of guy.
And his excuses 'why he couldn't repost his pics' when I asked annoyed me 'cuz they held no water when I took 2 seconds to think about them.

I was all set to post my pics if you re-read my first post here so I certainly didn't jump in here to attack anyone.

Often I make points that challenge people to think (I guess whether they like it or not).
People so quickly get offended by a 'challenge' (calling me pompus or getting angry and insulting me) rather than taking advantage of the chance to use their brain to explain their points/ideas. I am capable of seeing someone else's points and changing my views on subjects. Happens all the time.

This doesn't have to become a war either guys (and as Lena seems to worry about). I'm not in some crazy hyper battle mode when I post here.

Soundhound could have said 'the color is meant to be gold', not what the logo looks like on the computer. He eventually explained that, but decided to first insult my age (WHY??) out of anger.

I'm glad that some of you who felt the need to respond to me kept your composure in 'telling me off'. That's GREAT.
I actually like to read that sort of thing, even 'against me' I like seeing people use their brains. I wonder how many wanted to post something but couldn't think of anything to say that wasn't just insulting or angry.

I've always said that I DON'T demand anyone agree with me, and I welcome people trying to fix things even if it's 'me' getting the fix -heh. It's the people who just shut their brains off and get mad that worry me.

So I'll drop the HT pics issue. I already repeated my main points too often. I'll try to think about how to sound 'nicer' in the future when I post. Some of you may have to give me tips in this regard as this is clearly NOT my forte.

Remember anyone who thinks I'm insulting, etc and decides to insult me back is only sinking to the level they 'believe' me to be at. And if they 'got me wrong' they only place themselves at that level. Not terribly clever is it?

Since when is being called young an insult? Millions of baby-boomers would love to be thought of as young right now!

azryan:

I really don't see why this whole issue upsets you so much. Yes, I DID need about 6 megabytes of my 10 megabyte space for work. The logo was about 1.3megs, and I've had to take it down too for space. What's the big deal? The files for my HT pictures was about 5 megabytes, which is a lot to ask of the AVS board to post.

Nobody but you has said a word about the pictures being taken down. I would assume that anybody who was truly interested had already seen them, or possibly downloaded them to keep for reference.

Yes, I did look at your theater on the AVS board. The picture is limited in it's resolution, but it looks like you have done a _very_ nice job with the walls, sconces, and the screen area. I almost wish I had the time to re-think my walls (which are off-white) and do something like you appear to have done. I get screen reflection from the white walls, and it washes the screen out to a small but noticiable degree. Your coloring would be more immune to this.

Peace.....

Go Charlie!!

Now THAT is a big screen! How much land do you own SH?

He, He.......

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 26, 2002).]

Soundhound,

Now I see where you really got your drive-in speakers for the Living Rm. You just ripped em right out of your backyard. Leaving all those poor people hanging right up against the screen trying to read lips!

Azryan, Where at AVS forum? I'd like a peek.

Lena:

5.1? 7.1?? 10.1??? Heck, with all those speakers I've got 250.1!!!!!! Eat 'yer heart out....

i once played a gig in the leona theater in pittsburgh in the early 70's. it was quite a place. had a huge pipe organ. on stage were 2 voice of the theatre cabs. on the back were little paper tags with the signature 'jimmy b. lansing'.

seeing that logo brought the memory flooding back. i appreciated seeing it very much. if anyone paid attention, soundhound graciously offered it to be downloaded.

the history of modern sound reproduction began with that logo. as far as i'm concerned, whoever has it displayed in his/her HT has a clue what he or she is doin'.

sh: great pix, impressive setup by any standards and thanx for the logo.

Bosso:

You're welcome!

How are you at .1? You had four of the biggest subwoofers I have ever seen the last I counted.

Yeah, but it is a BIG ".1"!

if anyone paid attention
I’m sorry Bossobass, I really did…… in fact I downloaded it…then lost it somewhere when it was sent to a ‘temp’ file trying to save it to A drive. I did not recognize the ‘look’ of the logo itself….but I definitely recognized the saying,…..”Voice of the Theater” Did they say that in commercials? Radio? On the big screen….it sounded very very familiar. Probably as familiar as “The Audience is Listening” will be to my children.
I just got a little sidetracked chasing trainwrecks as I have appointed myself, Ms Manners of Outlaw, and although I see (for streches) improvements…sometimes it’s a full time job.

Also would like to take the opportunity to thank, PatriCanuck. That was a nice link. We still have a few ‘palaces’ around here that wax and wane with new ownership, predominately in the grand style of ‘Art Deco’.

I will never forget my parents taking us to a release, or re-release? Of ‘Gone with the Wind’ at one of these which is located in a local strip mall that was the first mall to make the Federal Historical Society List in America.

Pipe Organ!!!! Lush Draperies, Scones, red velvet in the seats. For some reason that night in particular made a lasting memory for me. I’d be more inclined to head for the theater’s if they had kept those traditions!!!!.

250.1
SH you just really want me to hate you don't you!?

Lena, I thought you were from Texas! The very first indoor "mall" (now considered to be more of a strip mall) is the Valley Fair Mall in Appleton, WI. It has theaters, an arcade, small shops and an anchor store. Are we thinking of the same place? If so, are you originally from here?

By the way, the Valley Fair Mall, while a nice small place to shop, is nothing compared to the Mall Of America in Minneapolis. If you ever get a chance, check that place out. My wife and her friends can get lost there for days on end!

[This message has been edited by willscary (edited November 27, 2002).]

Yes! You are correct- In Texas…Got the info from here 3 paragraphs down:

http://www.regententertainment.com/regent/news_new_theaters.htm

and here:
http://www.hpvillage.com/history/index.htm

But it is not an ‘enclosed’ mall…the old-fashioned ‘strip’ version prob. a whole different ‘historical’ designation.

Somewhere I ran into some good shots of the lobby and old original ONE screen (love it) with balcony. Can’t find right now. Gotta run to business lunch…

Soundhound,

"I really don't see why this whole issue upsets you so much."

Honestly, I'm not upset. I can understand why it 'read' that way though. I'm not the warmest of voices, I need to work on that, and I'm open to people who want to help me in this area.

"Yes, I DID need about 6 megabytes of my 10 megabyte space for work. The logo was about 1.3megs, and I've had to take it down too for space. What's the big deal?"

Like I said.. it was that you started this thread for showing pictures. Not a big deal, but by the time I saw this thread your pics were gone and I guess I got ticked.

I probably should not have, but I guess some may agree that I'm not terribly good at being 'human'.
How 'bout we e-shake and start over?

"The files for my HT pictures was about 5 megabytes, which is a lot to ask of the AVS board to post."

Yeah, that is a lot. I think the AVSforum's limit is 256K. That's WAAAAY less, but most people just shrink the pics.
@ 72dpi. you can fit a few small photos in this space if you (or anyone else who wants to look into this) wanted to.

People could just post links here if they wanted. I might suggest they start a new thread just to kindda 'start fresh'? Just an idea.

I crammed my one HT pic just under ~220K. It's made up of 15 crappy digital cam shots I pieced togther in photoshop so that's why it's of VERY poor quality (I mention this under the pic).

If you have a decent digital cam or film photos they should look great enough to show off even shrunk in this tiny amount of space.

"Nobody but you has said a word about the pictures being taken down."

Yeah, I guess that was part of why I decided to say something -'cuz no one else seemed to notice.
I didn't want it to be an attack though. Sorry.

"I would assume that anybody who was truly interested had already seen them, or possibly downloaded them to keep for reference."

Like I said.. by the time I saw the thread (and I was interested) they were gone. My fault I guess for being (in Outlaw-speak) 'too slow on the draw'.

I honestly figured my 'prodding' would've just gotten you to put 'em back up rather than start the 'mess' I guess it lead to.

I'll have to find someone to 're-post' my posts and remove the smartass elements from them.

"Yes, I did look at your theater on the AVS board."

Cool. I feel funny about showing pics actually 'cuz I don't want to look like i'm 'showing off'.
I mentioned I had a pic posted for the first time here because of your HT pic thread (which I think was a good idea you had).

"The picture is limited in it's resolution,-"

Yeah, VERY much so. I expect I'll try again with a 'real camera' sometime -maybe w/ a fish-eye lens so I don't have to edit 15 shots into one.

"I get screen reflection from the white walls, and it washes the screen out to a small but noticiable degree. Your coloring would be more immune to this."

Yeah, the rest of my house is (hardly) off-white as was this 'area' before I recently busted out a wall and expanded it into a dedicated HT room.
The darker color does make a Big diff. on a screen esp. FP. I meant to have a combo FP/direct view system and had the Plus Piano. I returned it though 'cuz of rainbow probs (and limited rez.), but I still have the outlet on the ceiling for future options.

BTW, the walls of the extention are made of 'perform panel'. 12" thick polystyrene beams that are stacked and filled with a grid
of rebar and concrete. Anyone looking to build a custom room might want to look into this stuff. It worked really well.
Super insulated (both sound and temp), very strong, very fire resistant (close to 'proof'), zero-flex walls.

"Peace....."

Same to you.
Happy TurkeyDay to everybody.

azryan:

Yes, let's go on and forget all the bad vibe that has come before!

I hadn't heard of the polystryene beams, sounds like a good idea. My room was built as a dedicated room over a garage that collapsed in the Northridge earthquake in '94. The city went absolutely stark raving mad with new building regulations, which I got embroiled in. After a YEAR of dickering with getting plans approved, the room finally got built over a new garage, but it cost me over TWICE as much as it would have if it was built before the earthquake. There are huge beams called 'glue-lams' that you normally see holding up the roof in warehouses at the arch of my roof, and another couple under the floor. There's a steel beam and steel posts over a foot square that are supporting the overhang of my room upstairs. The exterior is laminated with 3/4" plywood. This room ain't going nowhere!! I guess I can take comfort in the fact that it is relatively soundproof.

I used an Olympus E-10 digital camera to take the pictures of my room. I did re-size them to 1024x768 at 72dpi, but they are still relatively big, and I can't bring myself to use the jpeg compression in Photoshop at anything less than "8 or 9". Anyway, when I get over with the current project I'm doing, I'll probably be able to put up the pix agian.

Don't eat too much turkey!

I think in large part it's the nature of the medium. Without body language, facial expression, voice inflection, real time feedback from the other party, etc. things we say here can sound much different than in a conversation. It happens to everyone (except SLL I think) once in a while.

I try (not always succeeding) to take the mindset of writing a letter rather than having a conversation and this does help, at least for me. If I wrote what I thought most of the time you'd really think I'm an ass.

Any chance of seeing that link?

Have a good one.

"The city went absolutely stark raving mad with new building regulations, which I got embroiled in. After a YEAR of dickering with getting plans approved, the room finally got built over a new garage, but it cost me over TWICE as much as it would have if it was built before the earthquake."

Well... but hopefully that means it's safe where maybe before it wouldn't 've been??

"-I did re-size them to 1024x768 at 72dpi, but they are still relatively big, and I can't bring myself to use the jpeg compression in Photoshop at anything less than "8 or 9"."

Do it! Compress it to 11!! Don't compress the 'originals', but there's people with several detailed/good looking shots up using AVSforum's tiny amount of free space. Just for computer viewing you can really make the photos TINY.

I think backing off from the 8 or 9 range in Photoshop really won't hurt anything. I generally use no higher than 6 or so for images where I'm really concerned about it, and I've compared some fairly high-res images when compressed at around 7 to ones at around 4 and seen no difference, even in a 21" monitor. Do a little "save as" test -- you may be surprised!

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

I'll try some additional compression on them. If I can get them manageable, I'll re-post them with a link here this evening. I want to do some editing on the text and I have a couple shots I'd like to add also.

Yes, I do feel somewhat more secure that the room is built like a brick s**thouse, but I'd have to be watching a movie at the instant of an earthquake to reap any benefit! Oh well......

We never leave the theater...

I'm off to the inlaws (Outlaws?) to pig out on turkey, pie, ice cream, more turkey, pie and ice cream, and cookies


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 05, 2002).]

No margaritas?

I never thought of that!!

I drink one before I go to the inlaws.
It always helps.

Awww just kidding I like mine lots. It's just the women segregated talking makeup/hair/manicurist that gets me...and they expect me to join in ...and now I've even got this 'new' subject they absolutly can't relate to.....The terrors of Pan & Scan.

Lena:

I'm pretty lucky in that respect. My wife's family is very involved in outdoor things like skiing, hiking, mountain biking, water skiing. We usually hop on the bikes after dinner and take a long ride. It helps that my wife's brother runs the local ski area - free skiing

I'm telling them you said that!

Meanwhile, Happy Thanksgiving! (That goes for everyone here.)

Best,
Sanjay

So where are the pics, don't see a link here or in your profile.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 05, 2002).]

Soundhound,

Ok, since we 'e-shook' I had to take a gander (who the heck says 'gander'??) at your HT. Looks good. Love that 10' screen. Your room looks like it belongs more here in AZ not CA too. I was suprised my that.

So which Sony LCD projector is that?

Those pics are still very big for typical web pics I think. If you ever need the space I'm sure you could easily make them all a quarter of that size and they'd still look real good. Just a webspace saver idea if you need the space later and still want your pics up.

On my screen I had to scroll up/down/side-to-side just to see each whole pic since none fit within my screen due to the big size.

True to my word.. I'll post a link to mine (though you already saw it -since I did say where it is).
Pretty much just audio, video and seats...

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?ppuser=7711&cat=500&thumb=1

-now to go burst my stomach with fowl.

azryan:

I am a fan of southwestern decor, and am particularly fond of New Mexico. The look is very soft and calming. Wherebouts in AZ do you live? My dad lives in Kingman. I rode my motorcycle to Phoenix last year to get some mods done on it.

The projector is the VPL 400W (i think that's right) It was their first LCD that had a native 16:9 panel. I am going to upgrade to something else, maybe DLP, or maybe something else. I am waiting for the LCD/DLP/LCOS technology thing to sort out to the point that I can get as good a black level as a CRT can achieve, or at least close. I may have to wait for that though. The whole 'color wheel' thing in DLPs to me sounds like a "wank", so I'd like to see if 3 panel ever trickles down in price. I'd also never settle on anything less than around 1024 vertical pixels. Any ideas on this as to where the tech is heading? As you might have guessed, my room is basically a commercial studio that the film makers come to so I can present my work. The picture has to look good (and sound good).

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 28, 2002).]

SH,

IIRC, the DILA from JVC came pretty close to matching black levels of CRTs.

Have you seen any FP DILA projectors?

I'm telling them you said that!

Alright …..what’s it going to cost me? A couple of nice shiny Outlaw PCA’s?


I hope everyone had a Great... Thanksgiving and did not eat too much! Today I think I take my Mom to the new Potter movie….

SH,
projectorcentral.com always seems to keep up to date on all the latest FP's with company press releases, detailed reviews and direct comparisons. A 'must-see' site IMO.

Personally, I got hit with rainbows on a 6' screen and Plus Piano so I'm not a fan of color wheels either, and for now decided to go w/ RP.
Mainly I'm waiting for a new bulb technology like radio freq.charged quartz/argon for FP, but I can't fit more than a 7' screen in my room without pulling by speakers too far apart -something I just won't do, and I don't want an acoustic screen.
I heard they degrade the picture and they're not exactly acoustically transparent, but haven't used one so I'm just going by what I heard.

You can check out the last page of the projector thread here on the New Products section (where I've pretty much just been arguing w/ Charlie as of late about 3 chip color convergence).

I've made lots of comments on the current technologies too. The new HD DLP chip's great in FP, but the latest in 3 chip LCD is much brighter which would probably be better for your huge screen. 3 chip LCoS is my pick for best of both worlds, but there's not much out there beyond JVC's costly projectors...yet.

Maybe you could mention how your 3 chip LCD has no color convergence problems.

azryan:

Thanks for the info and link. I'll be sure to check it out.

I'm going to be waiting for probably a good year for the whole projector thing to settle down. I've heard of the new bulbs too, and supposedly they don't generate nearly as much heat, eliminating the projector fan.

Convergence? I hadn't given it any thought until you brought it up. I had just assumed that the three panels were locked togeather at the factory after they did any convergence adjustments. Not the case?

My Sony does a really good job for now, but I really want to take advantage of progressive scan, and HDTV.It has a very good line doubler, but if there's fast movement in the scene, it breaks down into an interlaced looking image.Otherwise, it's bright, and the pixels aren't that easy to see, but of course they're almost invisible on DLP.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 30, 2002).]

"I'm going to be waiting for probably a good year for the whole projector thing to settle down."

I think both LCD and DLP will probably only progress incrementally from now on both having been around for a long time now in front projection. Now that DLP has HD chips that produce decent black level, I think one year you'll just get what's out now for cheaper. Which is always good though IMO. Not sure on the specs of their HD3 chip or when it's going into projectors?

Hopefully LCoS will make some strides soon, but other than from JVC, it's very odd that it's such a slow start. That's my fav. tech. 'bet' for the future in both cost and performance.

"I've heard of the new bulbs too, and supposedly they don't generate nearly as much heat, eliminating the projector fan."
Yeah... no heat actually. And they output a perfect 6500K, aren't under high pressure, have no wires to burnout so they should last a looooong time, and are easily user replaceable.

I think the RF emissions are the main prob, but that SHOULD be fixable?

"Convergence? I hadn't given it any thought until you brought it up. I had just assumed that the three panels were locked togeather at the factory after they did any convergence adjustments. Not the case?"

Yeah, and you've had perfect convergence since you bought it.

That's what I wanted you to say 'cuz Charlie's been arguing with me over and over about how it's still an 'issue' for him despite my saying that in the 'real world' (like you and your PJ -and everyone else lives in) no one's got convergence errors w/ 3 chip systems.
He doesn't seem to see how that point matters??

Hearing you had 3 chip system I wanted to see if your experience would back up what I've already found to be true -which you basically did by saying you hadn't thought of convergence till I brought it up. If a prob. existed for you I'd imagine you've already had it in your mind.

"My Sony does a really good job for now, but I really want to take advantage of progressive scan, and HDTV.It has a very good line doubler, but if there's fast movement in the scene, it breaks down into an interlaced looking image."

Both the new LCD and DLP should fix this to a large degree if not totally for you. I still see some of this effect in DLP but more so in the rear projection sets (don't ask me why, but it might be 'cuz it's mostly a processing issue than a display trait?).
Haven't seen some of the newest LCD pj's, but just going by 'word on the street'(forums) that they're really good.

"Otherwise, it's bright, and the pixels aren't that easy to see, but of course they're almost invisible on DLP."

Both DLP and higher rez LCD should (as I'm sure you already know) greatly improve that. I think LCD is generally brighter (too bright IMO in some cases), but your screen's huge so I'd probably go LCD. You can usually very slightly de-focus the lens to blend the pixels in just a hair. Have you tried that on yours?

I actually did that on the DLP PlusPiano (800X480 I think @ 16:9)I had. And I was @ 2X+ the screen width. Almost invisible became truly invisible.

Are you getting a lot of trueHD yet?
I know I'm getting very little from OTA and zilch from DishNet, and am still waiting for the DVDgroup to decide on red laser MPEG-4 or blue laser 'blueray' HD-DVD's, plus the fight over digital vid inputs.
(not that I haven't been doing the same thing w/ SACD/DVD-A for how long now!)

azryan:

Thanks a bunch for all the info!

I think if there was a projector that had
1) 1080 vertical pixels
2) That RF bulb !!!!
3) Good blacks
and 4) There wasn't a new hot motorcycle that was fighting for my money

That money in my pocket that's 'sub critical' now would quickly go 'critical" I'm going to keep my eye very closely on all the available technologies and see what looks best to me.

One question: I had fits with my Sony, having to get 3 replacement units because of dead pixels, until I finally got a perfect one. I don't understand it; I gave them 'perfect' money, and I would like a 'perfect' projector the first time. I noticed in the manual that they say that some number of dead pixels is 'within spec and normal'. I say BULL****!!!

Is the dead pixel issue still a problem in your experience?? I hope not.....


I have found that de-focusing my image doesn't do much good with my particular projector. You see, the lens exibits abberations in color when de-focused, I then do start to see 'mis-convergence' that I'm sure is coming from the lens. It goes away completely if the image is perfectly focused. Weird, huh?

We get quite a bit of over-the-air HDTV here, and I think DirecTV that I use offers it also. Personally, I don't watch "TV" i.e. over the air - nothing on worth watching for me. I would prefer to purchase movies on DVD rather than see them on satellite. If DVD-HD happens, that would be the best of all worlds, and of course another round of upgrades

"1) 1080 vertical pixels"

That'll do 1080P. That'll be great one day when we can upconvert all our 1080i TV/SAT/Cable signals to it. That's my idea of perfection, but 720P and 1080i are still pretty close to perfect. Oh yeah... 10 foot screen. Scratch that.

The word I heard is HD-DVD's will probably be 720P and not 1080P so that sucks if it ends up being true.

1080P and higher is already available from LCoS makers, but the chips ain't gettin' into actual systems yet. Must be a production problem?
Three-Five systems has a killer 1200x1920 chip that could do 1200x1600 4:3 comp. monitor rez. or 1080x1920 the exaulted highest level of consumer HD spec.

"2) That RF bulb !!!!"

Yeah, the company that looks like the big developer seems to have fallen off the map. They suposedly used these RF bulbs to light the U.S. Dept. of Energy building even? There's gotta be a story to dig up here.
G.E. is working on this too, but I find not info from this giant 'bulb' company??

"3) Good blacks"

I'd settle for as good as CRT (which seems to be about here already though still debatable I guess)..., but I'd prefer 'better than CRT'.
When I can't tell where the letterbox bars of my screen end and the actual black cabinet of my RPTV begins then I'll be happy. heh

Maybe if the chips get cheap enough in the future they could overlay a black/clear (on/off) LCD on top of a DLP that would be used just to further block out bulb light on the low end of the gray scale?
Like a double black filter. If that makes sense??

"and 4) There wasn't a new hot motorcycle that was fighting for my money"

Is it a V-Rod or a Buell? I come from Milwaukee and was raised on American Iron, but I 'hear' other companies make motorcycles?? heh. Just kidding if it's a foreign bike... Harley's have a TON of Japanese parts on 'em so it's silly to called 'American' anyway.

Is it a touring bike? Do I get to make 'old' jokes if it is?? heh

I sadly sold my H-D 883 (w/ full screamin' eagle racing kit) 'cuz I just didn't use it enough (read: wife's fault -just kiddin'). Probably never get another one so put on a few miles for me.

"One question: I had fits with my Sony, having to get 3 replacement units because of dead pixels, until I finally got a perfect one. I don't understand it; I gave them 'perfect' money, and I would like a 'perfect' projector the first time. I noticed in the manual that they say that some number of dead pixels is 'within spec and normal'. I say BULL****!!! Is the dead pixel issue still a problem in your experience?? I hope not....."

Uh... sorry, but I think it very much still is.
TI has this same policy on stuck pixels and with a single chip DLP a bad pixel is a bright white or solid black dot. I forgot the number before they call it 'bad' but something no one ever hits and one bad pixel is enough to ruin the image IMO.

Much easier to see w/ DLP than a bad dot on LCD since it'd be highly improbable that three bad LCD dots would hit the exact same spot, so I give the nod to LCD or LCoS in this 'risk area'.

At a local electronics shop I just saw the new RP Samsung (HD2 DLP chip) with a stuck 'on' pixel. I also saw a bad pixel on a Sony GrandWega (LCD RP). The LCD wasn't too bad at any 'normal seating' distance, but on the DLP the bad pixel very much was.

Probably half of all DLP RP and FP I've seen have had a bad pixel (usual 'off'/black). I thought it was less common w/ LCD, but I'm not sure now?
Any new pixel probs. since you got 'good panels' put in, or was that it?

I think if an LCD panel is good it's not likley to have a pixel's electrical connection go bad(though just a guess really?), but w/ DLP pixels the mirror's hinge gets 'stuck' and it can happen at any time during it's life (not a guess).

The big posters on AVSforum's projector section would know more. You could do a search there even as I know it's been talked about in the past.

Too bad CRT is just too HUGE and too HEAVY and too low light for FrontP for most people. It's still the best/most dependable picture IMO.

But there's nothing like comparing a 4 lbs. projector that's far brighter than a 250 lbs. one.

In RearP I think CRT still clearly wins over the microdisplay options in every respect (esp. cost) other than cabinet size... but @ a size like my 65" screen.. microdisplay sets still have close to the same size cabinet, and though somewhat lighter... weight isn't an issue IMO either since a CRT RP rolls very easily if you have to move it and you have to do the same for a Large microdisplay set (or if tabletop design -carry it and move it's stand).

I do expect microdisplays to dominate RP in a few years though. Maybe 3-4 years I'll bet. Once they get cheaper and higher quality than CRT.

I figured it'd have happened by now but it hasn't.

azryan:

I think you've just made my 'short list' a bit shorter. I will have to be very skeptical of DLP before I pay my 'perfect' money for 'imperfect' product. IMHO the manufacturers have alot of cojones putting out anything less than a perfect chip, especially when there are thousands of dollars involved in the purchase price. Shame on them. When I go shopping, I'll be very wary, and demand to inspect a projector for dead pixels, the evenness of the light across the screen, etc. before I leave the store.

A Harley 883....and you SOLD it????!!!!!!?????
I have a Kawasaki cruiser that I've put enough money into that I could have bought a Harley. There's a picture of it on my website if you hack back to the root directory, and then to 'images'. I also have a Suzuki V-Strom DL-1000. I've ridden (and crashed) bikes for about 25 years. I just bungee strap the wife on the back and am done with it The V-Rod is just too expensive for what it is. Really, they have just started doing what the Europeans and Japanese have been doing for years, and they act like they invented all the technology. The engine was basically designed by Porshce anyway. I love the looks of most of the Harleys, but the attitude of the dealers, and the 'lifestyle' baggage that goes along with them turns me off. Besides, around here, every accountant, dentist, and lawyer rides a Harley


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 02, 2002).]

"When I go shopping, I'll be very wary, and demand to inspect a projector for dead pixels, the evenness of the light across the screen, etc. before I leave the store."

Eveness should be fairly perfect, but a stuck pixel can happen at any time during the life of the DLP chip so a perfect one at the start doesn't mean it won't go bad. I actually don't think they ship too many (if any) chips that 'start bad', but that's just a guess since to do otherwise would just be flat out fraud I'd think (or something along those lines) and anyone can return a projector if it's bad on 'day one'.

Sounds like after you got a good set of LCD panels that you've had no future problems.
I wonder if that 'could happen at anytime' is as much a problem w/ LCD and DLP. Just a guess but I'd think 'no' since the LCD has no moving parts to get 'stuck'.

A Harley 883....and you SOLD it????!!!!!!?????
Oh man.. don't bring it up! It was great. I've been riding since I was 4. I hated to get rid of it but I just didn't ride it enough since my wife said it was too cold out or too hot out most of the time and we don't do much apart.

She's better than the bike though so I can live with the choice. heh

So two bikes and you're looking at a third?
Whoa.

"The V-Rod is just too expensive for what it is."

Yeah VERY. I think they'll put that engine (yeah, designed by Porshe) into a cheaper bike like a future Sportster. Just a guess.

"Really, they have just started doing what the Europeans and Japanese have been doing for years, and they act like they invented all the technology."

Yeah. They did have a liquid cooled racing engine decades ago though, but never adapted it to road use. Dummies.

"I love the looks of most of the Harleys, but the attitude of the dealers, and the 'lifestyle' baggage that goes along with them turns me off. Besides, around here, every accountant, dentist, and lawyer rides a Harley."

Yeah everywhere. I hate 'marketing machines' so even though I've been raised on Harley my whole life, I don't care much anymore.

The Japanese still can't make anything that looks as good though IMO. Too bad, they make better bikes.

One of our investors has a Harley collection back to (IIRC) 1934. Not bikes back to '34, but a bike from every year between now and '34, plus a few older, I think back to 1927 or so, again IIRC. Is it OK to hate someone like that? He also has one of the original 'lost' Easy Rider bikes.

As far as DLP failures TI says the reason the chips fail is contamination in the fab or field. They indicate the fab comtamination issues are solved but that some OEMs are not quite up to speed on careful assembly and packaging. I would hope that as the process matures things improve.

Take that FWIW and YMMV. I don't want a fight moving to this thread. For more discussion we can always revisit the (in)famous DLP projector thread.

azryan and charlie:

I am getting pretty nervous about sinking my money into DLP, at least at this point. My Sony works great for now, and I think I'll watch from the sidelines for awhile. You know, I really _hate_ that 'customer as beta tester' thing that came about with the computer 'revolution'. I'm afraid there's a whole generation growing up that doesn't know anything else, and accepts things as they are, without fighting back. Don't get me wrong, I love computers, having been involved with them heavily before there was such a thing as a "PC", but the corporate side is sorely lacking in responsibility in my opinion.

Never mind me, I'm ranting.......

azryan and charlie:

I am getting pretty nervous about sinking my money into DLP, at least at this point. My Sony works great for now, and I think I'll watch from the sidelines for awhile. You know, I really _hate_ that 'customer as beta tester' thing that came about with the computer 'revolution'. I'm afraid there's a whole generation growing up that doesn't know anything else, and accepts things as they are, without fighting back. Don't get me wrong, I love computers, having been involved with them heavily before there was such a thing as a "PC", but the corporate side is sorely lacking in responsibility in my opinion.

Never mind me, I'm ranting.......

P.S. I've seen the "exchanges of opinon" between you both in the other forum - may I suggest a couple of 'e-dueling pistols' at 10 paces? Or maybe a couple pitchers of marguaritas........

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited December 02, 2002).]

Actually I agree. I my experience with this sort of thing (delivering technology) is that sadly this is typical. The manufacturer thinks it's sorted out, releases (generally under pressure from accounting and/or marketing), finds unexpected issues, resolves those, has OEMs or vendors that find new unexpected issues, resolves those....

The 950 is an excellent example.

I'm tired of being an unpaid beta tester. I'm waiting until it's really sorted out.

At this point from what I've read TI has done a very good job of identifing and quantifying the causes for DMD failures. They say that the #1 cause is (drum roll) dirt. Basically.

At first I was surprized, but when you think about it dirt is the traditional enemy of all things mechanical. According to the post-mortem results crud can get either under the mirror and block it, under an edge and make it sticky or wedge above the mirror. According to TI operational cycles have almost nothing to do with it, and hinge failures just don't happen. This is very good news to me, because it indicates that (1) TI is actively addressing the issue and (2) it is not an intrinsic design flaw.

One thing I saw and didn't like was the fact that on the larger DLP screens I could clearly see the individual pixels and even the 'structure' of the mirror within the pixel. That's just not cool. Maybe AzRyans' idea of a bit of intentional 'out of focus' would work to cure that - it certainly would seem to have merit. Also on that vein there are optical filters for other applications that are designed specifically to 'soften' the image transmitted by a lens. I wonder if that might do the job without chromatic aberation?

The smaller (under 60") DLPs I saw looked fine, as did the HD1 65" RP Mitsubishi. I wonder if the screen material could be made to help out as well on FP units?

This looks very interesting to me:

http://www.optomatv.com/index.asp

But it's not applicable to your needs I bet.

Have a good one!

Chalie:

I have to admit that when I first heard of DMD, the needle on my patented SoundHound "Wank-o-meterª" went full scale. When I heard that they were using color wheels, the needle damn near broke off At this point, I'm taking the attitude of wait and see.

Yeah, me too. Here's a mental image:

Imagine you're at the conference room table, in the meeting at TI when this researcher first floats the DMD concept. Talk about a long protracted silence. I bet some folks thought it was a joke. "...and to make a color image we can spin a wheel really really fast...."

Once I had more time to think it over I decided that the concept of using tiny mirrors to refect light wasn't really so bad. The color wheel is goofy, but I'm all about practical solutions, so who knows? TI has to concern themselves with severe liability issues if they falsify data to support their product. They may not be fully forthcoming, but I've never known any engineering dept that would promote or tolerate flat out lying, so I suspect the figures they publish to be true as far as they go.

I wonder if it will be practical to expect the OEMs to attain the level of cleanliness required though. Maybe a packaging change, but then if a protective layer is added how will that affect the performance? This to me seems like the most serious long term risk to any company considering the development of a DLP system. Can I ensure my device will never allow microscopic dirt onto the DMD?

I'm on that wait and see list too.

Charlie:

At least one less thing to worry about: If you've ever seen an actual DMD device you will quickly see that the thing is REALLY sealed up at the fab. While you may be corect that clean room issues could be responsible for crud in the chip, that seems unlikely to pass their QA. As to your concern about putting a protective something-or-other over the chip, or for having the OEM do it, that isn't needed. it is possible that dust could lnad on the front surface of the device, but that could easily be cleaned or blown away as needed.

In so far as the color wheels themsleves, there are a variety of options available to those few companies that actually design and build their own optical engines. Right now you can chose from a variety of options, including four, six or nine segment wheels. (Depends on how many repeats you want and if you want a "white" segment or just RGB.) The new SCR color wheels have been demosntrated but are still a bit off in terms of being used in commerical or consumer products.

But what do I know, I'm only a dog!

ARF ARF, says Iggy

Iggy:

Thx.

I typed up a pretty long reply but it failed to post. In short the TI doc I read said what you said, but I mis-read it. My bad. The document is 'lifetime.pdf' and it's out there somewhere.

And if you have any other good DMD/DLP studies you could link to I'd be very interested.

Though I'm down on TI for having personally seen several DLP sytstems w/ bad pixels, other than that I really think the chip as a grayscale image device works great! Don't want to sound like I think it sucks and worthless. The best HD DLP front projectors I've seen look GREAT.

I'm just scared of a pixel sticking. That's why I'm looking forward to a push from LCoS since it works just like the DLP chip but with no moving parts.

Like Charile noted if you're too close you can see pixel gaps and a dark center 'dot' within each DLP pixel, but in HD rez it shouldn't be a prob. at all. It easily should be better than the pixel gaps in LCD.
The slight defocusing would only need to be VERY slight to totally blend pixels in a HUGE screen like you've got Soundhound. While I only had a 6' screen the Plus was only 800X480 (something like that at least) in 16:9 so that should about equal HD in a screen like you've got.

I personally have a prob. with the rainbow issue in the color wheel -at least up to the 6x (I think?) in the Plus Piano, but that systems widely regarded as having 'no' rainbow prob so I guess my eyes are screwy?.

I certainly wouldn't trust a TI study of the issue or rainbow or stuck pixels though.

As Iggy I think noted the DLP chip itself it totally sealed in production. Those mirrors sealed under glass shouldn't be getting any dust into them right? Not sure what makes them 'stick' but I'm guessing it's a friction thing w/ the mirror hinge. Not 'breaking' per se, but just getting jammed and the static charge hitting the mirror ain't strong enough to unstick it. Just a guess though.

I misread the TI doc. What they actually said was crud getting in the mirror caused about 68% of the failures. They identified and implemented design changes to fix the vast majority of the other issues in the first year of production, including things like tiny springs on the mirror edges and smarter electronics to prevent hinge memory. The only significant remaining cause of failure was contamination by particles during fabrication and assembly. I mis-read that to mean fab at TI and assembly by the OEM, but after Iggy posted I reread the article and from the context it's clear that they are in fact speaking of crud inside the package. It's a very interesting read. Apparently the dirt comes from many sources, including various steps in the fab and machining process.

As AzRyan noted, the higher res and smaller the screen (basically the smaller each pixel was) the less the mirror artifacts were visible. Also it looked as if the lens (screen) on RP DLPs might be helping to soften the lines and squares. The projector I saw that was really poor IMO was a 800x600 Insight (IIRC) on a really big screen. This was one of my first looks at a DLP system and after that I was looking for the pixels.

I think what I can't get past with color wheels is historical: One of the first mechanical television systems used a wheel and a 'flying spot' contraption. The color wheel strikes me as a 'contraption' in the pejorative sense. I think of that and my Wank-o-Meterª has fits

Geez Charlie, you've made my Wank-o-Meterª go stark raving mad!!!!!!

Hound:

(Always a pleasure to speak with a fellow doggie!)

I guess you're right, to those of us who are old doggies the connection between the original CBS/Goldmark field sequential color system and the way in which color is created for the DLP projectors may be frightening, but I assure you, from one hound to another, that this is nothing like the old days. First of all, the wheels are smaller, so visions of the TV going wild and turning into a meat slicer are not needed.

Next, the speeds vary, since the frame rate is tied to the type of color wheel used. Remember, the DLP chip has to show the "color" frame that is synced to the color that is in front of it -- then that, in turn, has to be synced to the actual video frame rate. That's where you get the multiples from.

In SCR, or in the Philips Engaze system for single-chip LCoS, the image scrolls, rather than switches, but the idea is the same.

At first, color wheels for DLP sounded a bit looney, but they do work, and reliably so. I'd have more doubts about the rotating prisms in Engaze.

FOr those who want more info on color wheels as they are used in DLP and similar products, consult two of the prime manufacturers' web sites. That will dispell some of the opinions given here with (perish the thought!) first hand data. Look here:

http://www.optics.unaxis.com/images/PDF/unaxis_pd.pdf

or

www.ocli.com


But what do I know, I'm only a dog!

ARF ARF says Iggy

Iggy:

I know, and thanks for the links. I agree that from a pure problem solving perspective the color wheel is a promising thing. The rational part of me likes it as a posible solution, but the other part of me wants to run away, screaming.

The 3 chip system looks so much better at first. I spent a lot of time looking around trying to get a hint when affordable 3 chip DLP might finally come out. Over time I've kind of decided I should get a grip and just wait until the technology matures before I 'decide' what I want to do.

The last time my patented Wank-o-Meter™ had reading like this was when I first heard of DIVX.

If I seriously consider DLP at all, it would be with 3 chips. That's enuf moving parts in there for me, thanx.

I'm probably a lot less demanding.

Basically I'm tired of being an early adopter and I'm just going to wait until some of this stuff is more sorted out. Once DLP/GLV/LCoS/Whatever becomes cheaper and proven with some time I'll consider it. For my purposes I won't have any HD content of interest until the HD-DVD stuff starts to roll so I'm not in any hurry right now. If I had to jump right now I'd probably do what AzRyan did and just go with mature technology, probably a Pioneer Elite RPTV.