Ok so I need some help from all the experts...
What does calibrating the boards mean? So much of this stuff is now digital I would think all calibrations would be software and fixed?
Are low leakage capacitors that expensive? are there degrees of leakage?

So much to learn... so little time....

Having 3+ resellers reselling a common pre/pro gets the price of the pre/pro down to $899, and I applaud. But I have to ask why the same resellers won't resell a common amp.

Why share pre/pro's but not amps? Are these resellers trying to distinguish their product lines by having distinguished amps?

If they resold the same amps, wouldn't they get the amp price way way down too? Amp designs don't change all that much each year. They're not like a pre/pro that needs to change each year. Amps are like brawn. Pre/pro's are like brain. But, in a 950/770 setup, far more bucks are spent on the brawn than the brain. We can resort to mini-me brawn, a.k.a. 7100 to save $. But how come regular 770 class brawn costs so much more than regular brain?

What do you think? Am I all wet or is the price of an amp in the 770's class higher than it ought to be?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 08, 2002).]

Will,

My take is that amps are much easier to design that 6.1 pre/pro's. So each company can put its engineers to work to design something that looks and sounds like a homegrown design, thus offering some distinction from its competitors. Offering a pre/pro and amp combo that looks and specs just like 2 or 3 other companies would give you little to compete with, unless you were the cheapest, which they can't be due to Outlaw's business model.

MSRP:

Outlaw 950 $899
Oullaw 770 $1799

Does the Outlaw 7x200w amp need to cost so much more than an Outlaw pre/pro?

There's more distinction between pre/pro's than between amps. Excepting clone pre/pro's.

Wouldn't the 7x200w Outlaw cost less if multiple resellers sold it?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 08, 2002).]

Will:

There's more than just R&D costs to building a product -- oh, for example things such as the cost of materials?

Take a look inside an amplifier such as the 770 and you'll probably see LARGE metal heat sinks, dozens of output devices, a large transformer or two, some hefty capacitors and then remember that the whole thing has to be wrapped into a chassis that is strong enough to hold it all together.

Look inside a processor and you'll see one or two expensive DSPs, some DACs, the display and a couple of other high value components. However, the bulk of the mechanicals are are reasonably inexpensive.

COuld it be that accounts for the price difference between a 7x200 amp and a processor?

ARF ARF, says Iggy -- but what do I know, I'm only a dog?

Iggy,

Also when comparing the 950 to the 770, let's not forget one's made mostly in Asia. The other's made mostly in America.

Are any amplifiers made mostly in Asia?

Will:

You betcha! There are many amplifiers made in Asia, though as you approach the high-end they do tend to come more from the US for a variety of reasons -- not the least of which are the cost factors related to sheer physical weight that I mentioned previously.

Indeed, that makes the case for why one would presume that the Outlaws could sell the 950 for less than their amplifiers.

Your original comment a few posts back seemed to wonder why they can sell the 950 for less than the amps, and I'll I'm barking to say is that you need to look no further than the cost of one vs. the other to see why. Forget about who makes it, or where they make it. Forget about how much they make or how much might be saved by choice of manufacturer or the other items being discussed here. The guts of a heavy-duty, high-end amp such as the Outlaws is gonna cost more than the guts of the 950.

ARF ARF, says Iggy -- but what do I know, I'm only a dog.

[This message has been edited by Iggy The Dog (edited October 09, 2002).]

Iggy,

They make cars, trucks and other heavy duty parts in Asia that are imported here.

As you mentioned, there's not much R & D expense in making an amplifier. If a new amp costs so much more than a new pre/pro, because of the amp's sturdier construction and (largely low-tech) electronic parts content and manufacturing process, aren't those cheaper in Asia than the USA?

I'm sure there's a reason that somebody like Outlaw and AT and Sherbourn don't import as a group, 200 wpc amps from an Asian outfit like Easttech, to resell here, for under what USA 200 wpc amps go for. But I haven't figured it out.

I can see why Outlaw and AT and Sherbourn might want to distinguish their pre/pro's, even though they don't really. I can't exactly see why they distinguish their amps, even though they do. Personally, I wouldn't care that much if the amp I had was 2 or 3 or 5 years old, as long as it works. As long as the amp has the necessary wpc rating, the pre/pro matters so much more to me than the amp! I doubt I'm alone.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 09, 2002).]

Will,

I agree with Iggy - amps are expensive to manufacture due to parts/materials alone. Plus $1799 for 1400W IS dirt cheap. To me that amp is overkill unless you are running large speakers all around and in a large room. Look around at other amps, 2 channel, 5 channel or 7 channel, how many sell for $1.29 per watt? In my opinion, if you want to spend less, get a 5x100W for all channels except the mains, and then a 2x200W for the mains.

Plus so much depends upon the efficiency of the speakers and the crossover setting. Running 86dB sensivity speakers full range could use 200W, maybe more for movies. Running 93dB sensivity speakers with a crossover of 80Hz, and 100W should be enough to drive you from the room.

Sure, they make cars and trucks in Asia and import them, but that IS expensive. Why do you think they make Toyotas in Kentucky? Many of the Asia models are now made here to save on shipping costs.

Sure, if more and more clones sold the same amp, that would reduce the unit price some, but not a lot, and with that much money tied up in materials alone, that gives manufacturers some room to distinguish themselves without driving up the price of the amp very much. Like I said, the Outlaw amp is still a bargain.

Another example is a computer and a monitor. The CPU is the 950 and monitor is the amp. Today you can easily buy a CPU that is fast, lots of memory, etc for less than $1k. But now you want to add a great 21" monitor to go with it, and you can spend more than on the computer. Although they perform a much simpler task than the CPU, displays, good and big displays, are inherently expensive. Same with amps. Back when life was 2 channel, spending identical amounts for an analog preamp and a 2-channel amp made sense. Today, buying a computer based preamp and a monster multichannel amp, tips that price balance towards the amp.

This quote implies a much larger part played in the design of the 950 by Eastech than I had originally believed. As far as I know, this is the first Outlaw project to involve Eastech to such a level (if at all? Did they help Outlaw with the 1050?)

It raises a question in my mind: how many of the 950's numerous delays and eventual quality control problems were Outlaw's fault and how many were Eastech's? I don't think this point has really been raised in these forums before, but it certainly appears as though Outlaw may have gotten screwed by Eastech on this one.

If so, it's a shame. Also, if so, I hope Outlaw re-evaluates the relationship. But I'll empasize that I don't know if it's so or not.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net