Will,

Ever since I started reading these threads I have noticed that you are constantly harping on the Outlaws. Yes Will, we know that you are encountering hiss. You have somehow managed to remind everyone of this in so many threads that it has become old news. My unit does not hiss. On the other hand I have no doubt you are encountering a hiss problem.

With Outlaw’s record, I am sure they have an ongoing effort to look at ways of reducing your hiss and anyone else’s setup that is experiencing it. But your constant nagging on this does no one any good and calls into question the Outlaws desire to get everyone’s system as “right” as they can. If you are really unhappy send it back, but I am tired of you hijacking so many threads to complain.

Out.

Can't. Had it well over 30 days. I kept thinking they'd fix the problem. Maybe someday, they will. Even if they don't, it's not a bad unit.

Many other people feel the same as I do. It's not a bad unit, but it does hiss in many people's systems, but not in everyone's.

I'm glad your 950 does not hiss.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 04, 2002).]

jetsetter,

Sorry, but you are just out in left field. Prospective buyers need to be constantly aware of the issues for products like the 950.

Myself, I'm just not willing to fork over $899 for a product that has been shown in numerous tests -- ears and measurements --(magazine print and soundhound test results) to have a really lousy noise floor (i.e.hiss).

I'd like to thank people like Will and SH, for their contributions.

I'm sure many other people feel the same way I do.

I want the truth, and yes, I can handle the truth.

[This message has been edited by bstan (edited November 04, 2002).]

Thanx soundhound. Does anyone remember what ended up being the consensus of the beta testers? Did they somehow get units (as many have from the get-go) that simply don't hiss?

Sanjay

I have no first hand experience with subcontracting east asian manufacturing companies, but rumor is that parts subbing on the factory floor can be a real issue with some contractors. If this is the case it's possible the early production units were made with 'B' parts and Eastech is trying some 'C' parts to test the water, or something like that. Also, a 5 unit 'beta test' isn't much of a beta - no disrespect to the testers, but you really need more diversity than 5 people can provide.

None of the beta testers heard a hiss from more than a few inches away. We'd all have remembered if they had reported an audible hiss from many feet away. Maybe the beta testers had systems that were not "hiss sensitive." As far as I know they didn't do S/N measurements like Soundhound did later on. The beta testers were volunteers who used their home systems and their judgement. The handful of beta testers did not encounter the exagerated hiss some of us hear, where the hiss can be heard from many feet from the speaker.

The onus to find S/N problems was NEVER with the beta testers. It's with Quality Control. The 950 should have been Q/C'd before it entered into production. While the Q/C responsibility may rest with Eastech, it also rests with Outlaw. Regarding who was responsibile for a subordinates actions, its ultimately the person in charge who is responsible. President Truman had a famous sign on his desk which said something like "The Buck Passing Stops Here."

It's pretty apparent now, unlike during the beta tests, that the 950 just plain isn't meeting its published S/N specs.

If this was true since the 950 first shipped, the Outlaws should have known the 950 was missing it's published S/N specs and had a noise floor problem, a while ago.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 05, 2002).]

There were 4 original beta testers-they were: merc (John Morris), Robert A. Fowkes (RAF), JeffLH and Gene Lockaby. I believe merc has addressed the hiss issue (as it has affected him) in some of his past posts. By original, I mean these were the volunteer testers who signed up and were picked from the Outlaw Community. I would not be surprised if there were others who were directly or indirectly connected to the Company.

i wonder what would have become of analog tape recording systems, had hiss been such a big issue.

it was dealt with in various ways (noise reduction, gating, etc.), each method with it's compromise of the original sound.

marketing types' demand that cd be silent is what screwed the format up in the beginning.

there is nothing wrong with some noise (hiss), if it is constant in amplitude and doesn't effect the sound reproduction. any analog to analog or analog to digital format hisses. to remove the hiss is a compromise.

studio doctoring is the culprit. all natural occurrences of sound events are filled with background noise. studios eliminate all natural background sound and replace it with selected, synthesized sounds. music and soundtrack.

my theory is that hiss is acceptable in analog formats because they are the closest thing to the natural sound being copied and therefore, pleasing and relaxing to listen to. digital reproduction, on the other hand, has some underlying irritation to humans that leads to a natural curiosity to find what isn't right about it.

my opinion is that the unit that hisses is the best at reproduction of the source. all the high-end setups i listen to exhibit hiss, except the ones that gate it. this is no doubt why some 'units' hiss more than others, as some people have better power, cables, speakers, amps, etc. not being an electrical engineer, i don't have a clue as to why that is the case...it simply is. the hissing setups also sound the best. most revealing is probably the better word.

if thine hiss offends thee, gate it. gating is fairly cheap and easy to incorporate into any system. it will eliminate hiss (and everything else) during quiet times, but, 2 things: 1., it will compromise sound and 2., since no one listens in an anechoic chamber, our ears will point us to the next offender in the long list of background noises from myriad sources.

i think the 950 is so much better than 'not bad'. outlaw squeezed every drop of reproductive power out of the chipset, dacs, wires, cables, etc. some people don't like that. they are used to a muted appliance that hides the various evils of pcm. i wish the hiss were gone...but not at the price of reproduction quality. the dvd-a redo of 'dark side of the moon' had better start off with tape hiss or i'm throwin' it out the window.

Bosso:

I think the thing that is really wrong in this whole issue is that the 950 is advertised as having "24 bit" performance. Real 24 bit reproduction is _dead silent_: my 24 bit workstation sure is. The 950s noise performance is somewhere around the 13 bit level - I think it's more an issue of the marketing types wirting checks that the engineering department cannot cash.

In my experience, the 'hiss' generated by things like analog tape is smoother sounding than the "grittier' hiss generated in some digital systems. It's quite telling that a very substantial number of original masters still are recorded and mixed to good old analog tape.

‘Truth’ lies on both sides of the fence. Can you handle my truth? That the 950 tweaked performs better than what I have heard anywhere near its price range. The ‘truth’ that I did not have to buy the 950 as far as budget is concerned. (I take that back,…I should have a budget but for once in my life it got tossed out the window) That I actually choose it for sound. (Hiss and warts and all…) That anyone purchasing any pre-pro at any price trades off something somewhere? I think Jetsetter is getting cranky, because it’s a bummer when you are enjoying your system, have no problems, want to simply reflect and rejoice over your new sound. And yes Will does have the right to get cranky on his side, because in a few (people’s systems ) it’s appeared to be a problem, - and its probably like being left out in the cold, while everyone else is in by the fire drinking rum toddies and
I chose to give the Outlaw a try after considering many/many/ things in this area. (Not the least of which was sound).. I find I have a leaning for transparency in a system the Outlaw fulfilled plus the ability to run DVD-A (Or SACD) if I wish, analogue passthru, incredible HT performance, that would be hard to beat with any system., and the effortless power the 950/770 combo produces. (Which mind you came in very handy when shopping for a speaker upgrade as it did not limit my speaker choices as regards the high-current amp requirement models)

I find it really ironic, that while I had heard other receivers and pre-pro’s it was the Outlaw that led me down the path to a speaker upgrade because I wanted to more fully realize the potential of a system, on the 2 channel and passthru side although my original goal was for a stellar HT setup (achieved).
Also that the well burned in Beethoven’s I heard in one room on the flagship elite Pioneer receiver, and in another on B&K. (Sorry did not pay attention to the model on this set was getting tired of listening back and forth). Did not bring out the detail and sound that the 950/770 does at home with this pair. And it should not be an issue of ‘bad room’ acoustics at the demos. Because I’m in the situation of having no ‘tweak’ room for acoustics in this room. I’m shoehorning the system in. And so far they’ve just been uncrated and placed down with no regard for toe in/toe out/ distance from wall / bass tweaking/ soundstage optimization.
And the Outlaw makes them sing….

SH from the spec point I see your argument, But call me weird…I would not even let the salesman access the specs on FR etc when he wanted to ‘run get those for me’, on the Sonus Faber’s, Martin Logans, When I was listening…I didn’t want to be swayed by paper. I can tell you I was able to pick things like which speakers had a silk tweeter Vs metal, listening through the different rooms. Every time I asked the salesman (this is silk isn’t it etc) I was right, and I did not know who had it and who didn’t when I went in. Did you know that in the beginning of The Vince Guaraldi Trio’s recording of “Christmas Time Is Here” (most would recognize this from ‘A Charlie Brown Christmas)’. That that’s definitely a brush being circled on a snare. Yep - definitely a brush on a snare not a hiss on a snare is what I hear.


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited November 04, 2002).]