If specifications become meaningless all consumers are hurt. While it's not a cure for cancer, it is a non-trivial point IMO and deserves to be addressed.

Or do you think allowing a marketing firm to claim anything is somehow useful?

If real measurements are ignored specifications are meaningless. If the Anthem has issues that's also good to know, but it in no way improves the performance of the 950. And, as was so clearly pointed out, at least the Anthem can have minor issues addressed without invoking the services of FedEx.

The 950 is a nifty $900 pre/pro. It also seems to miss it's specs by a big margin and in many ways offers performance (S/N ratio) that equipment decades old can beat with ease.

charlie, maybe you should be in the Dynaco forum, getting that classic sound (a little noisy, not much frequency range/response).
When I got my 950, the first thing I did was plug it in to see the nice display. Funny, there was no hiss...............in other words "sound system" is the operative phrase. I did have some hum when I plugged everything in, must have been the 950, right? What's that, check all the grounds, cables, etc? Wow, what a revelation.

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this is the type of comparison david s is talking about, and i agree with him. sorry charlie, but comparing a decades old stereo preamp to the 950 is like comparing a bi-plane to the space shuttle.

the only excuse in my post ( 'some' noise is not a bad thing if...) was not to excuse the 950, but all prepros. the rest of the post is purely generalized conjecture. where are the engineers when you need them? identifying the problem is half the solution.

there is one helluva lotta traffic routed through that little box, but surely someone could say: [blank] is the cause of hiss which is more apparent if you route [blank] component with [blank] component because [blank]. of course, if i were outlaw, i wouldn't say a word until i knew the answer, which i am sure they work at every day.

i don't know how close my unit comes to meeting spec (all specs published, not just s/n), but do you really think the spec should read " this specification may vary depending on your particular configuration of the infinite combinations of components, their relative quality, interconnects, the particular order of path selection and format"? or..."this spec is a worst case scenario and will not be correct for the vast majority of owners"?

in a similarly complex routing system of pro sound, there may be a ground loop noise that can't be lived with. i never remember anyone focusing on the published s/n specs in the manuals. though tracking, finding and eliminating the offending component, cable or part is always a nightmare...it remains as the only way to solve the problem.

At least 2 examples of the 950 have been measured for S/N ratio while not connected to anything else and of those 2 examples, both had poor results. Even more disturbing was the fairly large variation in measurements. This indicates that not all 950's are the same even when produced contemporaniously. Now anyone familiar with Demming and those who have applied and extended his methods will realize some variation is unavoidable, but I would submit the degree of variation that is being observed and the poor average performance is troubling.

Perhaps the 950 would fare well in the Dynaco forums, I don't know. I do know that audio manufaturers seem to be playing fast and loose with specs lately and when no one notices it will only get worse. I don't expect absolute silence, but when I have a garage full of 20 year old equipment that exhibits better performance (and worse advertised specs) I get concerned about 'progress'.

Sorry Dude: I happen to use Dynaco MK IIIs to drive my side surrounds and a Stereo 70 for my rear surrounds. Both are _dead quiet_, and having actually measured _and built_ them, their frequency and power responses are extremely flat to within +- 1db to 15Khz for power response and 20Khz for frequency response. And guess what - no firmware upgrades - and that is since - oh yes, 1973! I really should dump those worthless things......

http://home.earthlink.net/~soundhound/dynaco.jpg



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 05, 2002).]

Not at all. I think it's pretty clear that the measurements have to be taken in a case like this of the 950 alone and referenced to a standardised or noted reference. For instance in the case of S/N many amps are measured 'unweighted referenced to maximum output'. Outlaw claims a S/N ratio of 102db for the 950, which measurement I assume did not involve cryogenicly cooling the unit before testing. If this is an honest spec then any 950 pulled from the production line should exhibit similar performance. At least 2 of 2 did not. It's that simple and has nothing to do with any other equipment in the system. This kind of noise figure can easily become an issue if the room is quiet enough and the connected equipment conspire to raise it to the level of audibility. Sure, some rooms and equipment won't do this, but the whole purpose of very low noise equipment is that it shouldn't matter in any reasonable case. If that 102db were real no reasonable system would exhibit hiss sourced from the 950.

Now customer satisfaction - that may have something to to do with the system the 950 is attached to. Some listening areas are probably noisy and some systems either mask or compensate for the hiss. I live in an area where if I step outside I can hear a gust of wind coming through the trees for several seconds, then as it passes over me I can hear the trees creaking as they bend ever so slightly in the wind. During the morning birds sing and in the evening, if it's not too cold, frogs may be heard easily. It can be very quiet in my house, and my system is very quiet when it should be, and it matters to me. The 950 might work for me, but my experience with the 1050 has not been encouraging. YMMV.


[This message has been edited by charlie (edited November 05, 2002).]

charlie, do you now have a 950?

Charlie:

Here in Los Angeles, if I step outside, I can hear the gentle rumbling of earthquakes, or the soothing crackle of forest fires, and sometimes the cheerful sound of riots.

I'm taking a wait and see. Originally I was pretty pumped to get one, but with all the issues I'm going to wait for the issues to be either fixed, explained or ignored. If that doesn't happen in a timely manner I'll find something else.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by soundhound:
[B] Sorry Dude: I happen to use Dynaco MK IIIs to drive my side surrounds and a Stereo 70 for my rear surrounds. Both are _dead quiet_, and having actually measured _and built_ them, their frequency and power responses are extremely flat to within +- 1db to 15Khz for power response and 20Khz for frequency response. And guess what - no firmware upgrades - and that is since - oh yes, 1973! I really should dump those worthless things......
QUOTE]

No surprise, I also have a pair of MKIIIs, and ST70, and MKIV. The noise is about equal to my 950; ie with my ear at the tweeter, I can hear a slight hiss, and w/the tube units, a slight hum as well. From 1', probably not unless its midnight. From 2', no way. The dynas have fairly low gain, my speakers are around 90dB sensitivity. My reference was to the fact that the 950 or any other processor doesn't operate in a vacuum. Cables, ancillary equipment, RF proximity, all sorts of things are involved. I expect Outlaw has had a hard time replicating many of the hiss problems reported, thus an easy fix is elusive.