the wise man puts a limit...imponit finem sapiens...

when catapults...cum catapultae...

with me all...ego me bene...

lock and key will...magno cum periculo..

there are many degrees...in virtute multi..

but, then again...it's all greek to me.

Lena:

Do you remember the "wattage wars" where the Federal Trade Commission had to step in and legislate a standard method whereby all manufacturers had to adhere to a standard measurement of power output? I do.

It really is getting back to the point where manufacturers like Outlaw are venturing _far_ off the honest side of stating specifications on things like noise, _actual_ resolution and yes, wattage.

Are we really that stupid?

I'm glad to know you are happy with your 950, I wish I were too. I know enough _not_ to buy things like the 950 on specs alone, but does 'Joe and Jane Average"?

Mine hisses. It doesn't meet it's published specs on noise by a WIDE margin. I have had to 'demote' the 950 to non-critical things like VCR an DSS switching.

If I were Outlaw, I would have monitored Eastech much more closely during the design and prototype phase. I would have put the 'first article' through TOUGH tests and measurements and listening. If they had done this (or possibly not looked the other way), none of us would be writing about hiss today, and we would be singing the praises of the 950 like you.

If another option were available now, I would jump on it. Expect to see a lot of 950s on Ebay in 6 months to a year.

If the equipment I use for my movie work performed like the 950, the manufacturer wouldn't be able to _give away_ it's goods - it's trust would have been broken, in an industry where downtime and less than perfect performance is not an option.

Outlaw dropped the ball - big time.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 20, 2002).]

Also very true. This is why it's very unlikely I'll be buying a 950, unless it matures into a revision that is much improved and less expensive. After reading the latest S&V I personally am leaning toward either a AT P9/Sony P9K combo, 1066/Sony P9K combo, the Anthem or the new B&K. But as they say, YMMV and what's important to me probably is not to others.

the facts always sway me more than the few loudest detractors.

in following this forum for a long while, i'd approximate 45 happy 950 owners and 9 unhappy (of whom only 3 or 4 have said they returned the 950 and purchased a competitor's prepro).

my dad always told me: 'if you do a good job, they'll tell 3 people, but, if you do a bad job, they'll tell 33 people'.

using that adage, and considering this forum would be the place to voice dissatisfaction, and also considering approx. 1,000 950s shipped, i don't think the ball has been dropped.

i also followed loosely, the 1066 and avm20 threads 'over there' and saw similar numbers of gripes about various issues, from failed upgrades to repeated blown fuses.

what if you paid $3,000 and then had to pay $300 more to upgrade, then waited weeks to find the upgrade was faulty. and then read that the newer same model was including the upgrade at the price you paid with no upgrade?

i would demand my money back, buy something else and then go tell 33 other people. i don't think, though, that that would derail an otherwise good product.

i think, if outlaw truly dropped the ball, the loaded question, 'is anyone happy with their 950?', would have yielded an avalanche of resounding 'NO' answers.

i do agree with the gist of soundhound's comments: they should change the published s/n specs. i do however, wonder how many other electronics products also have bulls__t s/n specs.

soundhound: i need a big. could you please bring me up to speed on the +4dbu vs. -10dbv thing? in particular, will a -10dbv component realize enough gain, or too much gain, through a +4dbu preamp? and, can you go from unbalanced to balanced without a line converter?

Bosso:

Whenever you see something that has a "dbV" after it, they are referencing 1 volt. Whenever they have a 'dbu' after it, they are referencing .775v _unloaded_. If it says "dbm", it is referencing .775v into 600 ohms, or 1 milliwatt. It is possible to go from banalnced to umbalanced without a converter. To go from balanced to umbalanced, take your output from pins 2&3 of an XLR, and ignore the ground wire on pin 1. To go from unbalanced to balanced, ground one pin (usually pin 3) and inject the signal into pin 2 (hot) and pin 1(ground). There is a 6db level difference in the balanced to unbalanced translation, but this may or may not be an issue, gain wise. If it is, then you will need a balanced to unbalanced and vice versa translator. -10dbv is about 320 millivolts. +4dbu is 1.23 volts. The difference between these two is 11.8db.

I _Still_ think Outlaw dropped the ball - it just sticks in my craw when marketing types play fast and loose with the truth. Controlled lieing. Yes, most people are happy. Great! _BUT_ I think they should take into account _all_ their customers, not just "98-99%".

Saul Marantz did. Frank McIntosh did. Avery Fisher did. Rudy Bozak did. David Hafler did.....

Pass the Marguaritas.........


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 21, 2002).]

As far as dropping the ball, the Outlaws, in my opinion, have not. I am one of those people who like simplicity. I wanted DTS, DD, 7.1 capability, and PLII. I wanted a fairly sensitive tuner, Outlaw's triple crossover, and an easy to use remote. Heck, a very good Pronto remote by itself can cost 1/3 to 1/2 the price of the 950. My 950 remote controls 7 components easily enough that my 3-1/2 yr old daughter can use it to turn on the system, the digital cable, the TV, the DVD, and pop in Monsters, Inc.

I have the hiss. By turning down the gains on my amp I have eliminated it. The sound is vastly better than anything else I have owned.

To go back to dropping the ball...Does Buick drop the ball when they don't produce a Mercedes? How about when auto manufacturers claim 14 city/20 hwy gas mileage and owners report average fuel mileage closer to 14MPG overall?

I know it is apples to oranges. Yes, published specs should be able to be duplicated. On the other hand...the 950 is a great product at a fantastic price. Yes, others will come along with a like product and price eventually. At this time, however, the 950 is the best product at this price point, and its nearest competition is about 50% more.

"think, if outlaw truly dropped the ball, the loaded question, 'is anyone happy with their 950?', would have yielded an avalanche of resounding 'NO' answers".

Shhese, I used this logic last week and basically was told to f&^% off/stay out of it. Sad thing, this was in my own post. Anyway, totally agree with this statement, and believe it says alot. 1) people tend to complain way too much, and 2) the 950's hiss problem, althogh real and worse for some than others, has been blown way out!

I do, - seen the history, have to shamefacedly admit I don’t have the math ability down on voltage etc, to decipher for myself which scale a manufacture is using which can weight S/N or Sensitivity specs etc. - one direction or the other. I am aware that specs can be selectively leaned using different baselines, and rely on snitching all of your translations on these topics at the moment.

I have no patience for math, if I ever got into physics and came up with a theory like ‘Relativity’ I’d have to do as Einstein, and toddle over to a fellow mathematician to have it converted into algebraic language.

Since the Outlaw is often described by users familiar with many systems as transparent. Is it possible (as there has been some theorizing in the forum) that certain 950’s might be sensitive to system structure that it could follow that Outlaw when measuring their own factory setups did register those specs? Just a thought?

I’m sure Outlaw contracted with Eastech to get it perfect, wanting it so does not make it so. What do you do when your Eastech sales rep calls you and says…our engineers’ state we have certain minor problems, which will slow our estimated schedule, but we reassure you we are working on resolutions round the clock. They can monitor Eastech all they like….it still won’t stop problems from arising, and at that stage of working with an OEM, you just deal with the issues, not throw the baby with the bathwater.
I also would imagine (just a guess) that there were moments Outlaw would have happily shot Eastech down in front of the proverbial saloon. I know several front sales/account managers myself who tend towards rosy colored projections, but to borrow a phrase I laughed at from Lonesome Dove..."A plank wall won't stop a bullet but a *dentist will”. (insert sale rep/engineers here *) I bet Outlaw would have loved retiring to drown their troubles in great quantities of margaritas (if said saloon was in Texas).
One of the two most popular myths surrounding the history of ‘margarita’ attributes it to a Texas socialite who served it first at a party she threw in Acapulco on vacation, the concoction quickly gained popularity in her home state. …gee…it can be nice sometimes to live in Texas.

If I'm not able to control the hiss, I will most likely buy a surround reciever to use until a more palatable alternative is available. I need a surround reciever for another room I plan to do in 6-12 mos. I'm thinking of the NAD T752. It can be had for $750 on the net. Choices choices...

Bosso:

Probably quite a bit of them, and that is my point. It really does seem that HT (and comsumer electronics in general, and probably many more industries) are folowing the computer marketing model. Integrity gives way to 'spin'. I buy the products, but I hold my nose.

I _really_ want to love what Outlaw is doing. I was, and am a fan of products like Adcom, Nad etc. Products that gave real bang for the buck and performed as promised. I know, I've owned many of them. For all I know, some of Outlaw's principals were involved with these companies. I was prepared to love the 950 - honestly. I am saddened that this turned out not to be the case.

So why am I saying all this? What good will it do? Well, I would just hope that people be a bit more discriminating in what is "good enough". I know that is falling on a lot of deaf ears, and in many instances there is perceived to be no other choice, but it is a good ideal to strive for. Yes, the few dissenting voices are usually the loudest, but in more than a few instances throughout history, they have been _right_. I am not trying to blow this whole thing up to biblical proportions, but would hope that "good enough" (take the CD standard - yecch) gets a bit more upward consideration by the powers that be in the future.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 21, 2002).]