I don't really have time to participate on any of the online forums lately. Work and family issues have really hammered me for the past couple of months. What little "free" time I've had has been dedicated to working around my new house (it *IS* different than renting ) or being with friends. Sitting in front of the computer has taken a very distant back seat. And I don't expect it to change for another month at least. Regardless, a friend remembered that I'd gone over to a local HTF members house to A/B a 950 with an Anthem back when the first ones shipped this past spring. So he called and told me about this thread.

The gentleman had bought the Anthem after getting tired of waiting for the 950, but he never cancelled his waiting spot. When he was told it was his turn, he accepted it with the intention of selling it locally. However, since he ended up with both the 950 & Anthem, he offered to hold a little comparision session for any local HTFers. I attended. He had a set of Paradigm Studio 100's and some higher-end boutique speaker cables. His interconnects were a complete package of the Outlaw cables. The amp was the matching 5 channel Anthem amp. We played music from a collection of CD's, SACD's and some scenes from several DVD's. The comparision lasted about 5 hours if I recall correctly. Neither he nor I were able to detect an *obvious* difference in sound. No, it was not a blind comparison. His girlfriend did claim to be able to hear a difference, but wasn't able to describe it while I was still there. He kept the Anthem and sold the 950, primarily due to features ... the Anthem has Balanced connectors which he desperately wanted for future installation in the new home he was planning. It also had the ability to customize the display lables and a few other details that he prefered. But in terms of sound, in a real persons living room ... neither of us could honestly say we truely heard a difference in sound. For me, not needing/wanting the features that he found so compelling, the 950 was all I had hoped.

Jim, I am *not* saying you're wrong. You'll note that this guy's girlfriend claimed to be able to hear a difference. But I do have to wonder, since I've heard both pre/pro's A/B'd, whether there might not be something wrong with the 950 you had? I will say, I'm quite sure you'll be very happy with the Anthem - it looks nice (altho I prefer a dark finish to the light color this other gentleman had), it sounds good and it has a ton of features. It also costs a lot more than the 950. Since I had no need for the Anthems features that that extra cost gets you, and since they sounded so much alike, I found that the 950 was all I had hoped for. When I finally received mine a month or so later ... I was just as happy as I expected. I also seem to have been extra lucky ... I seem to have a system that doesn't demonstrate the verious hiss/noise concerns that others have had. {shrug}

Oh well. Just another 1/2 cents worth of info. G'night. I'll be back ... don't know when, but I will.


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pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

let's separate the two situations.

1. head to head at the dealer's showroom:
i have to view this dealer's accommodation realistically. bear with me. say i am the dealer. i'm there to sell anthems, not to see if a competitor sounds as good or better. i just might connect black to red and red to black and compensate for that in the anthem's setup menu so that ANY other pre in the same system would sound flat. given that, i don't think you should give much thought to the "shootout". psklenar's post is more viable.

2. at home: i agree with will 100%. there are many reasons why a quarter century old integrated amp is no comparison to the 950/770, much less better in any way...period. past break-in, if there is such a thing, no electronic equipment gets better with age.

you mentioned 2 jbl s312s. what are the other speakers in your system?
you mentioned the denon cd player. what dvd player do you have?
i have to say this...i don't listen to cds. it's a terrible format that is long overdue to be replaced. if i mainly listened to cds, i would not have bought a 950 prepro. so, i can't help much in that area, regarding the 950 vs. anything else. i regard soundhound to be the go-to guy there (read his post above). i know eq is a dirty word to cd purist fans, but maybe it would help you acheive the sound you are used to hearing with cds. maybe sound hound can help here, too.

will also is correct about the revealing nature of the 950 possibly requiring some upgrade of cabling/power conditioning...and i definitely agree with the speaker placement comment. in 6 channel bypass with sacd multichannel, very seemingly small tweaks in my speaker placement/height made dramatic changes.

i say list all equipment and let us all suggest ac/cable/eq/system config tweaks, if you don't mind our ramblings. my opinion is, saving $2500 buys a lot of these upgrades and you'll buy them anyway eventually, regardless of what pre you end up with.

Quick thought this morning before I head to work...

I think someone else may have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but one very revealing test might be to demo the AVM20 (either the pre/pro alone or it and whatever Anthem amp was used at the dealer) at home. That would eliminate any possible "funny business" as pointed out by bossobass and would put the comparison where it counts most -- in your home, with your gear. Since your plan is to either keep the 950 (if you can get it sounding the way you want it) or buy an AVM20, the Anthem dealer ought to be more than happy to let you try it at home for a few days. If the old integrated amp still sounds best, then both pre/pros are likely more revealing than you are used to. If the AVM20 still wipes the floor with the 950, you might check with Outlaw about a 950 swap (since some past comparisons like the one psklenar mentioned suggest that there should not be that pronounced a sonic difference between the two, unless perhaps something is wrong with the 950) before throwing in the towel and dropping the extra $ on the Anthem.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

If you purposefully hook up one of the front speakers out of phase, do it sound better or worse (you never know if something inside the 950 got wired up wrong for the RCA output for one of the front channels).

patman, It sound worse.

A pair of speakers wired out of phase to each other would cause you to lose all imaging and make the bass appear anemic. The difference isn't subtle; you'd notice it right away.

Best,
Sanjay

Ah! I get what Patman's saying. Is it possible to get some wires reversed at the factory that would cause the pre-amp outputs to be out of phase? Something that could be tested by connecting the speakers "backwards" at the amp? It would seem like something that could happen more easily at the amp, but santaclarajim had similar poor results with his 950 when using the Anthem amp (if I remember correctly), which would seem to get the 770 off the hook.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

gonk,

Thanx for the clarification; I misunderstood patman's message. If it is in fact a phase mis-wire, it could be anywhere in the 950. (That would truly suck!)

Howwever, it can be tested pretty easily using the two main front speakers and by playing something with heavy mono content (AM radio) and listening for a stable phantom image in between the two speakers. This would settle the phase issue once and for all.

Sanjay

Whoa - I read this forum occasionally but this thread is just plain silly. It reminds me of the JR Cigar BB, where if you post that you smoke an Opus xXx, and think that it is a better cigar than the JR Ultimate, the regular BB'ers will you lynch you for this sacrilege - get over it; everyone gets an opinion and you in fact get what you pay for.

SantaClaraJim heard some gear that is more expensive than Outlaw gear and he likes that sound better. It is OK for him to like this other gear better; in fact there is plenty of Home Theater/HI Fi gear that will make the Outlaw products pale in comparison.
In fact I bet my McCormack Line Drive Deluxe with EPS, DNA .5 and Apogee Centaurs ab'ed next to Outlaw 950, Outlaw 750 amp and whatever low budget speaker would decimate the Outlaw gear in two channel audio. Why? Luscious parts, hand made in the US by HI FI aficionados with a far greater budget. Yeah they cost a lot more than the Outlaw gear for example - if the 950 is $900 for a 7 channel preamp and all the processing gear, and the McCormack Line Drive is 2 channels with NO gain - what does that work out to - $120 a channel for the 950 and $1250 for the McCormack (no remote either)?

Damn, what a long post - but, go easy on the jingoism and you'll get along better.

You could also use the phase test sequence on the VE or AVIA calibration DVD to confirm correct phase.

I have to admit I'm stumped on this one. I would suggest doing the series connected preamp/amp setup I outlined in this thread, where the left and right outputs of the 950 feed an aux input on the HK preamp, then on to the power amps and speakers, and the CD, to another aux input on the HK directly. The inputs could easily be switched back and forth _using the HK and original power amp_ in the loop, to see if the 950 adds/subtracts anything in the CDs playback. The volume difference between the 950 and the direct CD could be equalized by the 950's volume control. I would bet there would be no, or little difference, but the experiment should be done, as so much digital ink has been spilled in this thread on the subject. If I lived closer, my own curiosity would make me want to hear Jim's system to sort things out.