I too have a 2-week old 950 that I use in combination with a tube preamp (Sonic Frontiers Line1)and a tube amp (BAT VK-60). For 2-channel audio the Line1 is dead quiet but in SSP bypass you can hear the 950 hiss. In my case it is not a problem from where I sit but if I stand next to the speakers you can hear the 950.

That said, I really like the 950 for HT.

Will & Soundhoud:

So... what are y'all thinking?

I am 90% sure I'm going to hold on to it. I'll use the 30 days for real world CD, DVD, SACD, and if I get get a hold of a DVD-A, listening, and then decide at the end.

I don't like the hiss, but I do like DPL II, DD EX, DTS-ES, the CES modes, bass management on the 5.1 inputs etc.

Also, I've taken a quick look through the Theatermaster remote manual, and there seem to be ways to "join" buttons at the bottom of the remote to the source buttons (pg 20), for example to combine hitting DVD with DD and CD with stereo. But it's just a button press. Doesn't seem to be a way to map an absolute mode. (I.e., pressing "stereo" to switch from "stereo 7" to "stereo 5" mode, vs just 1 button push to get to "stereo" mode.)

There also seems to be a way to control Main Device Mode (when it switches to DVD player mode when you hit DVD) vs Automatic Audio Mode (pg 21). But I haven't figured that out yet. But that doesn't seem to be what I'd want: when I press DVD, *leaving* the remote in "950 control" (Aud) mode.

And I thought I saw somewhere about changing the definition of the Power button. (I'd just change it to Aud. Then it really would power up the 950, and it's a bigger button, easier to find anyway.)

Hey Scott, anyway, you could create a permanent link to the remote manual at the top of the 950 saloon or somewhere?

http://www.universalremote.com/htm/products/sl-9000manuals.html

Cheers!


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited September 27, 2002).]

Kevin:
I am certainly going to keep my 950. I'm not thrilled with the hiss, but in my listening position, it is barely audible. Overall, my Sony EP9ES Dolby Digital processor handled format changes better, and with the Smart CircleSurround box I used with it, it did great Dolby EX. I only needed the 950 to switch my many S-video and analog units. I think that ultimately, I am going to use the Sony (with the Smart CircleSurround box) as my main Dolby Digital processor, and run it into the 5.1 bypass inputs of the 950 so that I can control the volume using the 950 remote. I have an outboard vacuum tube preamp in-line with my main left and right front speakers, after the 950, that I run my dvd/cd player and phono preamp through directly, and have a _really_ pure analog stereo path. This way, I would only use the 950 for satellite TV, and VCR. It's a real wank to have to go through all this, and I was hoping the 950 would be quieter, but I'm afraid that although I'm going to keep it, it has been demoted to secondary duty.

Outlaws, I am sorry to say my 950/755 combo hisses as well. I've been following the board for months (just got my 950 I signed up for in April).

I received a new, post-fix unit so I didn't think it would be a problem. Unfortunately, I seem to have the "real" hiss problem-- not an ear-to-the-tweeter kind of hiss. But hiss that is audible from 4 feet away (surround speakers) and from 12 feet away (!) from the main speakers at normal volume levels. You can hear it even over my noisy fridge in the background.

First I just hooked up the Outlaw units to the rear surround speakers with no sources attached, to make sure it would power up. It did, but I heard the hiss right then and there. I still decided to hook it up completely to the whole system and the hiss is still there.

I'm not sure at this point if I'm going to keep the 950. I have a Panamax 5100 filter/surge suppressor on the way (Monday) to see if this will help-- but that seems like an expensive solution even if it works.

The only source I have is a Sony ES9000 DVD. No TV or other inputs. I'm using all Outlaw cables. DVD connection is both analog and digital coax. You can hear the same hiss whether I have the "DVD" (digital coax) or "CD" (Analog) connection selected.

My old Denon 2800 receiver hissed a little, but nowhere near as loud as the Outlaw. This is a shame because I really like the Outlaw sound except for the hiss.

I've emailed Outlaw to see what they say. But at this point I have to say I'm disappointed. Even more so since the hiss was supposed to be resolved.

If you have additional ideas on how to diagnose, I'd like to hear them. But if the hiss is there with just the 950 hooked up to the 755 and two speakers, I don't know how much simpler it can get than that.

Re hiss: Some of you are talking about horns. If these are horns like Klipsch's, with say 98db sensitivity, you will be "magnifying" his on the order of 8 to 10 db, compared to typical direct radiator speakers. I have owned many types of speakers one being the Klipsch Cornwall about 15 years ago. These puppies were 98db efficient and hissed like a rattler, it didn't matter the source. I was using a tube preamp at the time, and got rid of it in favor of a solid state. I explained to the maker (Frank van Alstine) about the problem and he said he would lower the output of the pre-amp. Voila, the hiss was gone as the preamp matched my amps better with high sensitivity speakers. I think that's what's at play here. High sensitivity speakers are going to show much more hiss using any types of equipment compared to low sensitivity designs. The point made re the muting circuits of other pre/pros is also valid. No signal and mute kicks in. Not sure why Outlaw didn't follow this method, but methinks that if they had, there'd be lots fewer posts in this thread.

Yes, horns are much more efficient than direct radiators. Mine are 106db (!) efficient. BUT, all that means is that the preceeding stages must be squeaky clean from noise and distortion. It CAN be done. Like I have posted before, I have a vacuum tube preamp in line with my main left and right front speakers that has a fixed gain of 20db. It is dead quiet through my horns. Also, in home theatre enviornments, horns are really more common than in music only situations. Outlaw should have realized this and designed accordingly. There is no excuse for audible hiss from more than a couple feet from the speaker, no matter how efficient those speakers may be.

Yes, more efficient speakers make the problem worse. (I have all Vandersteen up front, which are maybe 86 dB, but Def Techs in back, which are 90 dB or a little more. The hiss is worse in the Def Techs.)

But none of those are horns.

And the hiss from the 950 is still worse than other pre/pro's and a receiver I've had.

I watched 13 Ghosts tonight. Couldn't hear the hiss at all with the movie playing. But pause it, and turn my head, and it's there.

The movie wasn't that great, but the audio soundtrack was really well presented by the 950.

"Yes, horns are much more efficient than direct radiators. Mine are 106db (!) efficient. BUT, all that means is that the preceeding stages must be squeaky clean from noise and distortion. It CAN be done. Like I have posted before, I have a vacuum tube preamp in line with my main left and right front speakers that has a fixed gain of 20db. It is dead quiet through my horns. Also, in home theatre enviornments, horns are really more common than in music only situations. Outlaw should have realized this and designed accordingly. There is no excuse for audible hiss from more than a couple feet from the speaker, no matter how efficient those speakers may be."

Well, yes and no. We're talking a mismatch in gain structures here. Unfortunately, you cannot optimize the gain structure to make everyone happy, and this thread attests to that. The gain structure of the Outlaw is optimized for typical HT speakers. THX certification specifies around 90db, so the 950 works great with those. Tube amps (particularly if they're old) were designed for horns. The Outlaw was not. Your 106db speakers are magnifying the hiss by 16db compared to the typical direct radiator!!!

Yes, yes I know my speakers are more sensitive than most anything out there, BUT hiss is being reported by many people other than me who have far less sensitive speakers. Actually hiss is not a big problem in my system as I can only hear it about 5 feet from the speakers, and not at my listening position which is 15 feet. I had to work on the gain structure in my system ( actually it is a room I use professionally as well for mastering music for film soundtracks) in order to get the noise from other sources down. All the other sources in my system, including a digital audio workstation (ProTools) and 24 channel mixing console, only produce hiss that is audible about a foot from the horns. The 950 is way more hissy. I have an analog electronic crossover in line with my main left and right speakers that uses video buffer amp I.C.s that spec out as being _really_ noisy. In spite of that, the hiss is still only audible a foot from my horns with the entire system on, and without the 950 in the loop.

"Yes, yes I know my speakers are more sensitive than most anything out there, BUT hiss is being reported by many people other than me who have far less sensitive speakers."
For sure. But the question here is whether the Outlaw is generating more hiss than can reasonably be expected. If people are hearing hiss in a quiet room from the listening position during a movie with typical speakers, that is clearly unacceptable. If people are cranking it to reference level and sitting with their ear 1 foot away from the tweeter with nothing on and are complaining about the faint hiss they hear...well, you get the picture.