I am hearing the same thing too. Did not notice until you guys pointed it out. I normally have mine turned up and very little dead air. My setup:

Outlaw 950
Adcom 7500
Monsterpower HTS3500
Apex DVD (Coaxial digital)
JVC Cd Changer (analog)
JVC VCR (analog)
RCA TV (analog)
Axiom Epic 80 w/o sub
DIY 15" Tempest w/ partsexpress 350w amp

I really doubt mine is 50db from 3 ft like someone mentioned, but it is there, not really noticeable from 10 ft, but from 3 or 5 ft, YEP!

I finally got my stuff installed and totally love it! The clarity and depth is just SO much better than my dad's onkyo and my old 8000 series jvc amp!

I too have hiss from more than a foot away. The system sounds good though, despite the hiss.

There is a power conditioner on the line. But it's not the world's most expensive power conditioner. Hiss turns on AFTER switching to analog, and the hiss stays.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited September 20, 2002).]

Now this comment may put the dander up on big time audiophiles...but does the hiss matter? A low level hiss would seem to get lost in the general sound of what is being listened to. I am more videophile than audiophile...the transport noise on the dvd, the hum from the TV (heck...the street noise outside) would seem to be much worse. Now, I am prepared to eat my words (my 950/770 are on the way from California to Canada as we speak) when I put my system together, but I thoroughly expect the system to be worth the cash.

My $0.02

My 950 does not exhibit the digital-analog-back to digital hiss problem but this does not sound like a good thing. I do have a very small hiss on analog (inaudible from a foot away) and barely any on digital (ear up to the speaker) but it doesn't change with inputs. I also use a Monster HTS2000 power filter.

If it makes anyone feel better my Rotel 960A and Diva 2.1's hiss louder in my downstairs set up.

I did the experiment to see if I have hiss that stays even when switching back to digital. First of all, I have pretty good power conditioning, but not a 'megabuck' unit. It consists of 3 stages of RFI/EMI filters in various stages throughout the system, the last stage being a TrippLite 'isobar' strip. Also, I have a very low level buzz that given the complexity of my system, is to be expected. I have large theatre horn seakers for the L,C,& R speakers. and direct radiators on the sides/back.

In a digital source, coming in 'Optical #1' the hiss is audible from about 1 foot from the horn. Switching to analog, the hiss is louder, audible from about 6 feet away. Switching back to digital, the hiss returns to the original level for the digital input, i.e. hiss audible from only 1 foot away. I tried this many times and the result was always the same. In analog, the hiss is volume control dependent, getting louder as the control is advanced. At "+10" the hiss is much louder, and I can hear bleed-through of the FM tuner. Of course at that level I would not want to be in the same room when playing source material, and it is an un-reasonable test for hiss level. In digital input, the volume control does not really increase the level of hiss as it is advanced.

So, do I have a 'hiss problem"? I don't think so. The Outlaw is about as hissy relatively as my Sony EP9ES I had previously. Under normal level control settings, I cannot hear the hiss from my listening position, which is 15 feet away.

What I CAN say, hower, is that the analog section of the Outlaw 950 could use some design re-thinking. In my opinion, it is relatively noisier than it needs to be, given the amount of gain it has to provide (not much). I haven't dug around in the innards of the 950, and have no desire to given the complexity of connecting it into my system, so I do not know how the analog section was implemented.

Maybe our Solid Stage Logic guy (ssltech) can provide some answers about the topology having been inside the beast?

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited September 20, 2002).]

Who else hears hiss over a foot away in analog? With volume at about -20 dB.

ATTENTION, PLEASE READ!

Given the content of the messages in this thread, it’s appropriate for me to make a few comments on behalf of the Outlaws. First, it bears stating that ALL preamplifiers, processors or receivers have some level of hiss. It’s simply unavoidable. Next, it is true that some, though far from all, of the units from the original production run of the Model 950 exhibited an ABNORMAL level of hiss. While there is no industry standard on what constitutes an acceptable level as opposed to an unacceptable level it was plain that there were units with hiss at a level that could be heard above the general noise floor of some listening rooms.

It is well known that to take care of this issue we took the rather extreme step of halting production to make the necessary changes required to eliminate the objections raised by some 950 owners. As you also know, we have resumed production and shipments, and virtually everyone with a unit containing the changes agrees that the hiss has been reduced to unobtrusive levels in most real world setups

Unfortunately, the intense focus on this subject has led some people to seemingly replace their home theater hobby for a “hiss hunt” in searching for hiss by going out of their way to create unusual scenarios where it can be detected. Since the Outlaws live in an open, Internet world by design, indeed, by providing this very Forum for discussion of this type of thing, we understand it as a part of the natural behavior in the home theater world. However, at a certain point one has to take a step back and look at what is going on.

As you get closer and closer to reducing hiss, a point is reached beyond which it either requires increasingly large costs to achieve smaller and smaller reductions. At a certain point you simply cannot reduce the hiss at all. This is a gray area, as there is no standard or measurement guideline for when “enough is enough”. We feel that the Model 950 is representative of a very reasonable standard. The fact that the vast majority of the number of owners – a number that increases dramatically each day – is more than satisfied with the performance tells us we’re right on the mark.

It is worth noting that we have taken a different design approach than some of our competitors. Many manufacturers employ muting circuitry on the digital inputs when a signal is stopped so that the listener has the impression that there is no hiss. In reality the hiss is there, but muting provides the illusion of “hiss-free” performance. We think this is the moral equivalent of sweeping the crumbs under the carpet. You can’t see them, but trust us, they are there. HOWEVER, in all cases, when the digital signal returns and the system resumes, the hiss present in ALL units returns, but it is at such a low level that you simply don’t notice it. The general agreement that the 950 is a great performer on digital soundtracks is the TRUE testament to the fact that the noise floor is more than sufficiently low. Comparing a muted input to one that is not is simply not the way to evaluate performance any more than you would think the carpet is totally clean unless you look under the couch.

We feel that we have effectively addressed the hiss issue with the current Model 950. Some may choose to find out how they can “hear the hiss” even though they have been satisfied with the unit’s performance when it counts: with program material playing. There isn’t much we can do for those people, other than to suggest that the unit is performing the way it is intended. We could have added a mute circuit, but we didn’t. What you hear is what you hear.

Of course, we stand behind our commitment to customer service and will always be there to assist those with an abnormal problem. However, we regret that when it comes to addressing the unrealistic scenarios or situations where the unit is otherwise performing properly, there is simply nothing we can do to help other than to suggest that you focus on true performance rather than situations that do not gauge the actual quality of a product.

Best Regards,

Scott

I agree that this is bordering on 'Much ado about nothing". BUT in my post I was referring to the hiss in analog, not digital mode. Before I entered the music field heavily, I was an electronics design engineer, and have designed more than my share of analog gain blocks. I would presume that the 950 has something under 20db of analog gain. My previous post was simply that for that amount (or less) of gain, the hiss level seems _somewhat _ excessive. I would expect this amount of hiss from a relatively inexpensive FET input op-amp I.C. (such as a TLO-72) at 20db of gain. I don't know the analog implementation on the 950, and realize that cost is an issue, but I was just stating my findings, and opinions.

By the way, all the hiss comparasions were done at an indicated '00db' on the display on the 950, unless otherwise stated. My system is calibrated for 75db SPL per speaker, using the built-in pink noise generator of th 950.

Also, note that in my opinion, the hiss level is NOT really a problem in my system. The 950 performs very well in all digital aspects, and acceptably in analog. I would have left out the AM/FM tuner however, and put the money into a better analog section.

All good points Scott.

I passed on rev 0 of the 950 because of the hiss. But my name is happily on the list for the currently shipping rev, and now I'm a little curious if I will hear it on my system. I have balanced AC and medium sensitivity speakers.

My respectful opinion is though, that any hiss, at normal listening levels, at the listening position, would be a little hard to accept from any component. And I would also submit, that if the hiss prevents the unit from meeting the advertised specs, that either the specs should be changed, or the design of the unit should be continued to be worked on.

But maybe there's a larger magnifying glass (or microphone! ) on this for the 950 because of the past issues...


Just for kicks though, go check out the reviews on audioreview.com. Really early still, but the 950 is rated substantially higher than the 1066...


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited September 20, 2002).]

I did post earlier about the hiss, it is there, no denying that. In response to the question about running at -20db, I dont hear it because that is cranked up movie volume. The hiss is actually closer to the volume of my pc fans (htpc) that are all quiet fans running at 9v instead of the 12v. I am VERY happy with my oulaw, adcom, and axiom combination, they are clear, precise, deep, and LOUD! I DO NOT think that this is a problem the Outlaws need to fix. I have listened to many pre/pros (including lexicon) and think the outlaw is by far quieter and a better piece of equipment (especially for the $$$$).

Overall, good product Outlaws! Thanks!