Help!

I'm a newcomer to the 950 relative to many of you guys. And a complete newcomer to home theater as opposed to audio.

One of the features that appealed to me about the 950 was its (apparent) bass management.

But according to my ears, the bass management is not what it appears. (The manual, by the way, is pathetic - a definite but not unexpected consequence of going with a cheaper supplier relying on off-shore [i.e. Pac Rim] manufacturing).

I've looked over the various threads and combined with my ears, do I understand the following correctly:

Despite the apparent great flexibility of the system, in fact the only choices are to either send all sub-80Hz frequencies to a subwoofer, OR to suffer double bass if one disables the overall bass management and attempts to micro-manage the crossovers.

To wit, I would like in a perfect world to send sub-60 from my mains to the sub and sub-80 or even sub-100 from my center. Can I in fact do this?

Sure you can Norman! Go to Main Menu and select "Speaker Config" and set the xovers for front, center and surround as you see fit (See page 22 in the Owner's Manual). Best...

Steve, thank you, but do I make this selection with the overall bass management toggle swtich "on" or "off"?

You might be confusing the analog 80 Hz (only) crossover, only applicable to the 5.1 analog inputs (switch on the back), with the software config crossovers, which have nothing to do with the 5.1 analog inputs, and everything to do with CD and DVD sources brought in digitally, and 2 channel inputs (except for bypass mode). ??

(Sorry about that sentence! )

In one sense you are correct: double bass with the analog crossover turned off, or no double bass but with the switch on. Just for the 5.1 analog inputs though.

I think much of the manual was written and edited here in the good old U S of A. That thar is American workmanship, feller.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 07, 2002).]

Norman, like Kevin mentioned, the switch is only used when analog bass management is required for a 5.1 channel source (SACD or DVD-A)which is connected to the 6 channel analog inputs for multichannel playback. See page 34. Good luck!

If you look at page 26 it says:



I'd say it's unclear at best how the low-pass is handled in the triple crossover config. I think soundhound was going to do some measurements to see what happened in various configs.


brianca..

[This message has been edited by brianca (edited November 07, 2002).]

I haven't bought that Dolby Digital encoding software yet. It costs almost a KiloBuck When I do, I plan to make a very extensive test disc.

I would tend to believe what that guy in the article you pointed me to says, that the low pass to the LFE takes place at the _lowest_ of all the low pass settings, which could result in a 'hole' in the bass region of the smaller speakers.

I've set all my speakers to 'large' except for my center to avoid this whole thing when playing DVDs. I set the center crossover to 150Hz so the image is sort of 'spread' to the left and right fronts, which takes the onus of the center speaker being a 'point source'.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 07, 2002).]

Thanks for your posts. As a newcomer to HT, I'm struggling to understand which controls work with which inputs! Sure makes my stereo pre-amp look simple.

I'm using an optical digital input from my CD/DVD player to the 950. The analog signals from CD, tuner, and turntable all go to my stereo pre-amp; I don;t use the 950 at all for analog stereo hi-fi.

Let's see if I have this straight:

(1) In this configuration, the crossover toggle on the back has no effect.

(2) To avoid double bass, I should select "small" for my mains and center channel, then select my desired crossover for each one.

Right? Wrong? In between?

In between.

For any input that is being digitally processed there is no double bass issue.

That is a very good 'best of both worlds' configuration, which I use myself. I don't know how you have the stereo preamp hooked up with the 950, but I run the left and right front outputs of the 950 to an 'aux' left and right input of my stereo preamp, so I can bypass the 950 that way.

And it shows….Norman you mentioned HT multi-surround was a new area. Thereby prob. topics covering unfamiliar territory.
I loved….the Outlaw manual, for multi-channel operations and in general I thought the manual was close to as good as it gets…Just Outlaws manual alone walked me through calibrating, - hooking up interconnects….stuff I’d never attempted for myself before. I moved speaker terminations around on the amplifer last night without even electrocuting myself....amazing.
You should see my manual for the Sony RM-AV2100….I had to read it through twice, (still made no sense at tal!!!) gave up and start pushing buttons anyway…AFTER I pushed buttons a bit then it slowly dawned….oh that’s what they must be trying to say what a weird way to put it!

It's a true Outlaw community manual...Outlaw let us play editor on the forum BEFORE the manual was released…. (uh….maybe we did not do so good?! )

Hopefully it will be updated. I downloaded the PDF and it's covering a more complex device, but a lot of basic info is left to be guessed at. In some ways the 1050 manual is actually more complete. The B&K and Rotel manuals are IMO quite a bit better. The Anthem manual is almost scary.

Since it's an internet only product and this forum is provided I suppose that should be counted as a plus.

Soundhound, I send the CD signal directly to my pre-amp using the CD/DVD unit's analog RCA outputs, and the DVD signal from the same unit to the 950 using the CD/DVD unit's optical output. Using "Y" phono jacks, the pre-amp and the 950 both feed to the amp that powers my main speakers, so the only trick in this otherwise straightforward cabling arrangement is not to have the pre-amp and the 950 powered up at the same time. (If I eventually make that mistake, I very much doubt that any harm will be done, but it sure won't sound pretty). The 950 is sitting on top of my stereo pre-amp so has been easy to remember so far.

SLL, I really didn't need a manual for doing the interconnects. Its pretty straightforward (I think) for anybody who has been accustomed to separates - just read the labels on the jacks. I'm still finding the mode stuff confusing. No doubt its in part just the difficulties of adjusting from a straight-analog system with no menus, remotes, etc. In that vein, perhaps there is assumed knowledge in the design of the manual that the rest of you already had. Or perhaps I'm just not very bright. But I find the 950's UI to be far from intuitive, and the manual in that regard neither as clear nor as helpful as it might be, but also certainly better than some manuals I've tried to wade through.

All in all, its more like using a piece of software than audio equipment, and just like complex software I'm sure I'll learn my way around with practice.

Norman:

Having parallel feeds of two outputs using a "Y" adapter is not a good idea, even when one of the pieces of equipment is off. Even in the 'off' state, there can still be some interaction from the inactive circuit devices in the output stage, causing at the very least some additional distortion, and useless loading of the active device. If you want to use a "Y" adapter, solder an approximately 10K ohm resistor in series with the hot (center) lead of each leg of the "Y". This will isolate the two pieces of equipment and prevent interaction. The only downside to doing this is that you must keep the interconnect length _after_ the "Y" to no more than about 3 - 6 feet at the most, to avoid high frequency attenuation from the capacitance of the cable and the 10K ohm impedance created by the "Y" adapter.

Hello,

Long time lurker, first post.

soundhound,

If the triple crossover and trims and such are active during 5-STEREO or 7-STEREO processing, could you use a CD with pink noise or a sine sweep to check the crossover points and LFE/Sub behavior? That would save the kilobuck purchase, or at least delay it a bit...

Soundhound, haven't noticed any problems but HAVE worried about the very issues you raise with the Y-cables.

BTW, all my equipment is in a compact custom cabinet so no interconnect exceeds 3' except for the component video output from the 950 to the television.

Once I've settled in with my current interconnect system, I'm inclined instead of your 10K ohm (I assume 1/2 watt would be adequate?) solution to add a high quality DPDT toggle switch to my existing home-made control box which routes amplifier signal to three different listening areas. What are your thoughts on that alternative?

I wouldn't use either of the 5 or 7 stereo modes, or _any_ other of the DSP modes (PLII, etc) to test response of the system. The reason for this is that there is de-matrixing going on to extract and 'synthesize' more channels from a CD which is a 2 channel source. This processing can, and will effect your measurements.

If you are in fact just setting the crossover from main speakers to subwoofer, this can be done with a sweep test or discrete frequency test. There are some useful test signals on DVDs like Sound & Vision's Home Theatre tune-up, the Avia Guide to Home Theatre, and possibly some others. I find the Sound & Vision DVD very useful, but I don't know if it has a frequency sweep.

What solution were you thinking of buying for a KiloBuck?

A DPDT switch would work fine - JUST DONT DO THE SWITCHING WITH THE VOLUME UP!!!
You could get quite a noise burst if you aren't careful. Alternately, you could get a 'make before break' DPDT switch. This type of switch makes the new connection before cutting off the old one. Essentially this type of switch parallels the outputs just like you have them with the 'Y' adapter currently, but only for a split second as the switch is thrown. This type of switch avoids the pop that can arise when using a typical 'break before make' switch, like a garden variety toggle. You might have a hard time finding a 'make before break' switch: Digikey Electronics (1-800-DIGIKEY or www.digikey.com) might carry one.

OR, you could just to to RadioShack and pick up 4 10K ohm 1/4 watt resistors, and solder them into your "Y" adapters and be done with it.

I thought this issuse was resolved along time ago?? Scott (Outlaw) posted what occurs from the start/just seems some will never believe a word this co. says? Anyone have a copy of the old post for Norman?

My understanding was that the 5/7-STEREO mode would just copy the Left channel to the Left Surround(s), same with the Right channel. Not much manipulation required, just copying, and that would be adequate to test the behaviour of the Sub low-pass with different high-passes on Main and Surrounds. Don't know if that's how the 5/7-STEREO modes work, but it might be worth a shot... Definately, with other modes that extract info, you wouldn't know exactly what you would get.




I was referring to YOUR DD encoding purchase. With that you'll know exactly what signals are going where. Until you get around to that, could we maybe talk you into trying the 5/7-STEREO thing to check on the Sub low-pass?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by soundhound:

I would tend to believe what that guy in the article you pointed me to says, that the low pass to the LFE takes place at the _lowest_ of all the low pass settings, which could result in a 'hole' in the bass region of the smaller speakers.
____________________________________________

that there could be a huge (2 1/2 octave) hole seems like far too big a flaw to even warrant the design of triple crossovers.

the most likely case is that the low pass point is determined by the highest high pass point selected (since no one really selects 150 for any of their speakers, it hasn't been noticed).

maybe if you set one of the high pass points at 150 (though soundhound, as you say above, you do this already, i recall that you low pass your subs outboard, so the difference wouldn't be apparent), then set it to 40, you wouldn't need a metering device to hear that big a difference?

i don't use the sw out, or i'd try it myself.

of course, i agree that the manual says nothing about the low pass point in relation to the high pass points (neither does the ICBM manual)....and that this is pathetic. unless of course, explaining it in the manual would expose it's flaws.

I could indeed check that, but I'm not quite certain what you want me to check for. Please 'splain.

You could be entirely right on the 5 and 7 channel stereo modes just 'rubber stamping' the left front to the left surrounds and the same for the right. The point is, I wouldn't take the chance on that for calibrating my system, unless I knew for sure. I'm not entirely clear on why you need to include the surrounds in any testing of the sub crossover - if you could explain to me what you are trying to do, I can give you more info.You will still get a 'comb filter' effect with several speakers running, even if they are reproducing the same sound, which can mess with your measurements.

Note: I am one of those crazies that does not use the bass management feature: I have full range speakers all around, but I have an analog 60Hz crossover network inline with my front left and right feeds. I set the 950 to 'no subwoofer', which feeds the LFE to the front left and right mains. It is split to the subwoofers (4, in stereo) by the external crossover. I do set the center crossover for 150Hz, but I do this because it kind of 'spreads' the dialog across the front, taking the point source onus off the one center speaker.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say in a longwinded way, is that I might not be able to do the measurement you are asking for since my system does not use the LFE in the traditional way. Let me know.....

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 08, 2002).]

Bosso:

Yes, I do indeed set my center speaker's crossover to 150 Hz to spread the dialog somewhat across the front of the soundstage. The center speaker doesn't need this though, as it has two 12" woofers.

I got the idea for doing this from when I was working on the restoration of the original "Superman" movie. When they originally mixed the movie in England in 1978, they low-passed the dialog from the center to the left and right front speakers, giving a kind of 'wide stage' feel to the dialog that I liked. They don't do this anymore, in fact dialog is very rarely panned from the center speaker. They used to pan the dialog to match the position of the actor on the screen, but it was a bitch to work with, and ended up sounding un-natural in some circumstances. So now the dialog is just sent to the center speaker.

I have noticed when source is satellite/stereo sometimes DPL11 has a near match simulation to DD 3/2.1.
However certain feeds (or recordings) seem to give surround modes very little to work with and whole vast lengths of a movie can still be weighed heavily (or entirely) into the center speaker. Very unappealing. The next time I run into this sit. I’ll try center crossover higher to see if this spreads the stage to a more enveloping effect. Thanks for the tip.
When all sound tends to bear to center off satellite, particularly reducing impact during an action/adventure flick that’s the only time I use 5-S (now) 6-S to at least emulate, ‘enveloping’. I’ll try the crossover bump next time and see what occurs.

Remember that this will only work correctly if you have your mains set to large and no sub selected. Otherwise the info below the crossover will go to the sub instead of the mains as it does in shounds setup. I don't think the effect would be a good without this configuration.


brianca..

Brianca is correct. You will just shunt the frequencies below 150 HZ to your sub.

If your speakers are fairly big (don't have to be _huge_) You might just try to set all your speakers except for the center to "large" and set the subwoofer to "off", and the crossover for the center speaker to 150Hz. On satellite and on older movies (especially mono ones) there is likely to be limited bass anyway, so your speakers should be able to handle what bass there is (again, if they are bigger than a breadbox). Just go easy on the volume, and don't play "Pearl Harbor" or "Twister" like this or you will surely frag your speakers! And of course, you would need your subwoofer for films such as these.

I get a useful, if not huge benefit by setting my center in this manner. It would work better if the crossover point were adjustable up to about 250Hz or so, but give it a try.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 08, 2002).]

I've heard as a General Rule that speakers with 6.5" drivers or larger can be set to large. 5.25" and smaller should be set to small. This can vary though (hence the term General Rule).

[This message has been edited by JT Clark (edited November 08, 2002).]

That sounds reasonable.

Then, there's always my drive-in speakers

Davis S, its not a matter of disbelief, I just haven't seen the company post that you refer to.

Soundhound, in order to solder the resistors into the audio cables, I'll have to remove the shielding. That's why I thought it might be better to do it at my router box.

When I'm changing selections at the routing box, I always do so with the amps off.

The behavior in question involves the triple crossover settings and their effect on the low pass to the sub output of the Main, Center, and Surround signals. The LFE signal and how it is handled and what output it shows up at is not the issue at the moment.

If the Mains are set to Small and high-passed at 40Hz, and the Surrounds (or Center) are set to Small and high-passed at 150Hz, the Sub output should have the Main information low-passed at 40Hz and the Surround information low-passed at 150Hz. The concern I see being raised is that the Sub output might be low-passed at 40Hz, the lowest of the settings, thus leaving a "hole" between 40Hz and 150Hz where the Surround info is not sent to an output.

Here's the setup I'd use to test this if I had a 950...

Source:
Full bandwidth pink noise, from 20Hz - 20kHz, fed into the CD input.

Measurement:
Spectrum analyzer to check what's coming out of the Left, Surround, and Sub outputs of the 950. Note no amp/speaker/room effects, we want to look at what the processor is doing.

950 Settings:
The 5-STEREO processing mode on the CD input. All channel output trims to 0.

Check One:
Set Mains, Surrounds, and Center to Large.

Verify that the 5-STEREO mode sends the full bandwidth pink noise to Main, Surround, and Center outputs, and nothing to the Sub output. If it doesn't, stop here, and wait for soundhound's DD disc.

Check 2:
Mains Small, high pass at 40 Hz.
Surrounds and Center Large, so nothing from them should go to the Sub output.
Sub On.

The Main output should roll off below 40Hz, and the Sub output should roll off above 40Hz. Do this to note what the Sub's low-pass rolloff looks like on the analyzer. Surround and Center output should still be full range.

Check 3:
Mains Small, high pass at 40Hz.
Surrounds Small, high pass at 150Hz.
Center Large, so nothing from it should go to the Sub output.
Sub On.

Again, the Main output should be rolled off below 40Hz, but now the Surround output should be rolled off below 150Hz.
The Sub output should have Main AND Surround up to 40Hz, so the Sub output level below 40Hz should be 6dB (or 3dB?) higher than Check 2. The Main contribution should start rolling off above 40 Hz, but since the Surround info should be present from 40Hz to 150Hz, the sub output should not fall off like Check 2, but flatten out a bit between 40Hz and 150Hz. Then the Surround contribution should start rolling off above 150Hz. If you change the Surround crossover frequency, the sub output above 40 Hz should change also. If you change the surround trim to +10, then it should dominate the sub output, and make the effects easier to see.

If the 950's internal calibration signals are full-bandwidth pink noise and "upstream" of the crossovers, you could use them instead of the CD/5-STEREO input, and be able to check the sub output for Main or Surround or Center separately. If the LFE calibration is full range, or at least 20Hz to 200Hz, you could do something similar to check the effect of the triple crossover on the LFE roll off in the sub output, if there is one.



If I upgrade (from my current ProLogic!!!! setup) my Main output would be set up like yours, Large with an external crossover to my one lowly sub and front speakers, with the 950 Sub output off. My Center and Surround outputs would still be Small, so info from them below their crossover points (and ALL the LFE info, too) should end up at the Main outputs, where they would be divided between the sub and mains.

Hope this helps, and is coherent!


[This message has been edited by bergermeister (edited November 08, 2002).]

bergermeister:

Well, it's raining cats and dogs here in Los Angeles, and I don't have any work to do at the moment, so I'm breaking out the B&K calibrated microphone and RTA and will do some tests. I'll upload screen shots of my results.

The pink noise generator in the 950, like that in all consumer HT equipment is band limited to the region around 1Khz. This makes it pretty useless to test fequency response.....more to come.

Here is what I have figured from the manual and the other double bass thread (which I can't find right now). For all inputs but the 6 channel input, there are two speaker sizes, large and small. When speakers are set to small, everything below the crossover is sent to the sub. When speakers are set to large, no bass is redirected from them. They receive the full signal whether there is a sub or not. The sub will receive th ".1" and anything below the crossover from the small speakers. If there is no sub, all of this bass that would have gone to the sub will now go to the mains.

The 6 channel input works differently. This works independently of the other bass management! The crossover is set to 80 hz, it can not be changed, only turned on or off. When it is off, all speakers will receive the full signal whether they are marked large or small in the other bass management. When it is on, all signals below 80 hz will be sent to the subwoofer. This next statement is speculation, but if you do not have a subwoofer, I believe the signals below 80 hz will be dropped. The switch basically decides whether all speakers are to be treated large or all speakers are to be treated small.

Like Charlie said before, there is no double bass. If you have double bass, you really have some funky splits and connections in your wiring. If I missed anything, or misunderstood anything, please let me know.

[This message has been edited by JT Clark (edited November 08, 2002).]

bergermeister:

Looks like we'll have to stop at step #1...

First of all, if you set the front left and right mains to 'small', you are forced to have the subwoofer setting to "on" so I can't duplicate a 'normal' setup.

When I play pink noise in STEREO 7 in my current setup, there is very active cross-steering going on. When I play pink noise on a CD which is only on the left channel, it gets re-directed to ALL the other speakers, left _and_ right surrounds and back surrounds and center, to some extent.

Anyway, I did take a nice screen shot of the response of my front right main speaker

http://home.earthlink.net/~soundhound/response.jpg

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 08, 2002).]

Lena, Absolutely! When people think of matrix decoders, the sound of old Pro Logic usually comes to mind. Too bad. Not enough people realise just how good mordern matrix decoders (PL II, LOGIC7, Circle Surround II) can be. That's fine for spreading out the centre channel content of discrete 5.1 sources. But for listening to 2-channel material via PL II, there may be an easier way: use the Centre Width parameter on the PL II Music mode. Don't let the "Music" moniker prevent you from using that mode for movies. Instead, think of it as PL II with adjustments.

If you find a recording (TV, movie, music) too bunched up around the centre speaker, use the Centre Width control to spread centre channel content out towards the front Left & Right speakers. Keep in mind that you can fine tune the spread as you have eight (count 'em, 8) distinct steps from Min (ALL mono content steered to the centre channel) to Max (NO content steered to centre, i.e. Phantom mode).

On recordings that you think are too flat or boring, you can turn the Dimension parameter ON to give the sound a wrap-around effect. While that effect, obviously, is not appropriate for all recordings, it is surprisingly useful on some older soundtracks and some dryly-recorded music.

You can also adjust the balance you hear, between the fronts and the surrounds, by using the Soundstage control. It works kinda like real life: i.e., as you approach the front of a concert hall, you hear more direct sound and less ambience; as you move to the rear of the hall, the direct sound gets a little quieter as you hear more ambient info. The three settings (Front, Neutral, Rear) mimick this effect quite well, and can really help give better envelopment to recordings that decode with too-tame surrounds.

So before you adjust crossovers, give the PL II Music adjustments a try. The very few times I've used PL II on movies or TV shows, it's always been the Music mode.

Best,
Sanjay

That seems reasonable, since in most setups you wouldn't find 'small' mains and 'large' center or surrounds that you would want to redirect bass to. So if the mains are small, they assume you'll have a sub connected.

Why were you trying 'small' mains and NO sub output? I was suggesting using the Large/Small setting to control if the sub output got signal from the Main or Surround. The sub would always be on.


Well, if it's re-directed but constant in level and still with enough low freq content, it could still be useful if you only look at the Left Main and Surround outputs.


Nice! Does your measurement setup allow input from a line level source, like the jacks on the back of your 950? I know, they may be buried behind the rack...

Thanks for taking time on a rainy day for us! And let us know what you find out when you get your test disk made.

The only thing to add is that when the switch is off all speakers get a full range signal AND the sub gets a copy of the signal from all speakers below 80Hz. That's the double bass. You can avoid it by keeping the switch on, but some would rather not do that.


brianca..

bergermeister:

My problem is that I can't easily re-connect my subwoofers to the LFE on the 950. If you saw my setup, you'd know why...

With the cross-mixing going on in STEREO 7, I would be very hesitant using it for any type of measurement, but that's just my pragmatic engineering side coming through

My RTA software can run on anything you plug into the computer sound input. I have a Bruel & Kjaer measurement microphone which is good +-1db to 40Khz. It has a preamp that puts out line level.

according to scott, the 950 has a fixed lp of 120hz on the subwoofer channel in 6 channel bypass. this is as it should be so as to not lose any of the original information, and this is high enough to allow outboard crossover/slope processing.

setting the switch to off sends 80hz and below from 5 channels to sum with 120hz and below in the sub channel. (i call this obese bass)

remove the cable from the 950's sw output to your sub amp. take the rca plug out of the 950's sw input and insert it into an $80 mono mic preamp, then into your sub amp. the sub will then only see lfe info (directly from the sacd player) and the summed below 80hz signal will go nowhere.

this will also work for HT, as the player will send the decoded lfe through it's sw output also. of course, this is strictly for an all speakers set to 'large' setup.

And no sub selected Thanks Brianca/Soundhound, most like me would be to forget that the first time, and go uhm something’s wrong here.

Okay JT you got me: Re: Rule of Thumb:
‘ALL’ drivers in the speaker over 6.5 = Large
Under 5.25 = Small
I have in my fronts drive units which are 2 x 7" Woofer XPP Cone "Spider-Cone" and 2 x 5.5" Mid-Woofer XPP Cone
The center speaker has dual 5.5" mid-woofers
Therefore the center falls in the gap 5.25 to 6.5 leaning to small. For sure (I) would think my center should be left small…and the Def Techs absolutely no question, at small. but....

Is there math to sum the drivers in the Fronts and divide by X or ? Rule of thumb?? Any drivers under 6.5 in the array leave said speaker at small?

Sanjay: Thank you, Joy unrelenting, something ‘new’ to play with. I went into DPL11 adjustments the first week, got lost, reset to factory default, and forgot about that option.
I’ll try both methods suggested on ‘my things to do’ list. Right now I am mightily distracted by just spinning CD’s to run them through the new speakers.

Which leads me to my next question (totally highjacking the thread). I am beginning to feel great sympathy for 2-channel nuts. (I love my surround sound and look forward to each new SPM released (if it’s not gimmicky). I tended to think of the hard core 2-channel analog guys as (coughs discreetly) old fuddy duddies.
Let those guys sit in the glow of their tubes until they have to fabricate their own needle cartridges when the market no longer produces them. I’m a modern girl.
BUT, I have found when playing CD’s, (not talking about the successful and better laid down mixes on some DVD-A’s) just straight plain old CD. That some of the ‘old’ stuff and old recordings absolutely are mixed perfectly for the ‘best’ (CD-format) experience possible when listening in straight 2-channel bypass.

For example, some of the more modern arraingments on CD’s just don’t seem optimally mixed to produce a very convincing sound stage. Last night (after my margarita at Blue Mesa) conveniently there was a Barnes and Noble’s next door. I picked up Take flight! a Bluebird Collection. This type of CD (collection of old recordings) is so satisfying to play in bypass. The soundstage just leaps out between and above my fronts, It’s as if my speakers are just gone. There are 2 cabinets sitting on the floor with nothing coming from them.
The soundstage is ‘out’ there. The boxes just sit, - to all intents and purposes dead in the water as if they have - no - connection whatsoever with that trumpet or singer over there on my living room stage.

What is it about the way the recording, mixing of a CD is done, - that creates this perfect 2-channel scenario where your speakers just disappear leaving nothing but a big soundstage behind?

Any familiar with this very nice CD will know what I’m taking about, when ‘Cat Woman’ is singing “I Want to be Evil” You can hear her standing right at a mic dead center out in front of you. etc. etc.


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited November 09, 2002).]

It has a lot to do with the recording and mastering process done in the studio. Also, on an older recording, analog circuitry and tape was probably used. This tends to soften the sound a bit.

These days lots of compression is used during recording and mastering to get the loudest perceived sound out of a CD. This tends to flatten the soundstage quite a bit, but it sounds deeper and louder in a car with big subwoofers! ;-)

Sayer

Lena:

On the subject of the size of your woofers (no inuendo intended ) I would just go ahead and try the crossover thing and see if it works for you; just watch the volume until you establish that you aren't going to thrash the speakers.

STEREO!! TUBES!!

They weren't dummies back 'then'!! As you are seeing, even good 'ol stereo can be magical. It comes down to the technique of microphone placement and mixing of the original recording. On a good stereo recording, there should be _no_ indication of where the speakers are, and the music should just float in space. There can be real depth, height, and the image can extend well beyond the left and right boundries of your speakers if all is optimised. The rub is that it has to be a really good stereo recording: that ideal is unfortunately not realized as much as it could be. With the newer techniques of mixing popular music, using 'virtual surround imaging' plug-ins in a digital workstation enviornment, you should hear things popping up all around you, even behind you, that seem so real that you have to check that you are only listening in stereo.

Of course, real multi-channel holds huge potential to take all that to the next level - with the same provisio - that it is _done well_.

My system uses vacuum tubes exclusively in the power amps, and preamp stages, even the surrounds and center channels. Tubes have such an 'organic' sound that is so pleasing and beguiling that once you hear them, you are hooked. They really _did_ have it right back then!

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 10, 2002).]

This tends to soften the sound a bit.
Take Flight could/is to some extent I assume re-mastered Since it is a ‘collection’. I wonder if it was re-mastered digitally or not. When you say soft? what I hear is about as sharp as it gets, every note seems as full and faithful to what ‘Cat Womans’ original voice sounds like (including when she cant’ quite hit the note….) Every horn piercing (when intended). The guys who transferred it had to have done so recently, maybe just more particular to doing the tracks justice and getting it right. Maybe it is a lack of digitized harshness on some discs, I see analog guys discuss. Compression effects, THAT I think I can hear on different CD’s to greater or lesser degrees myself (a long standing irritation). When I hear it (what I think is compression) it removes ‘life’ from the recordings. Maybe part of the ‘satisfaction’ is that on layered/busy/complicated mixes the ear does not have ‘time’ to register/appreciate the individual instrumentation. When I listen to one of the jazz tracks when 3 horns are going on, I have ‘time’ since jazz is so weighted to ‘forward showcasing’ one musician at alternating moments in a piece. One track on this CD, I can hear the stage right horn when he hits a note standing straight up. Then he physically bends over and hits the next note (you can ‘hear’ his body position) then the stage left horn goes with him for a quick melody, Then between them the main horn walks forward from behind steps into the mix and takes over the emphasis center stage. …Bello!
I had a young guy walk in last night who recently worked for “Ultimate Electronics” and had gone through all their sales training…..(He really hasn’t learned that much yet). But he was floored by this CD on these speakers. He kept saying the clarity was amazing. He stated he had only heard one brand (in his limited experience) that could even get close to touching these. It was a nice moment only because he tends to go on and on (with what UE has taught him) and I had never seem him stumped like that before. (There is still something on these speakers that bugs me, (not as satisifying as my 'dream idea' of the utlimate) But on a very/very broad variety thrown at them. Dead On.

Soundhound I had a lot of tease going on in that post. I’ve seen tube rigs currently on the market with price tags of 30K that are absolutely Beautiful. Whatever ‘sound’ they produce their construction and design looks like something you’d see in the Modern Museum of Art. Wish I could hear your system myself. Music is produced organically by (ugly bags full of mostly water) and should be experienced that way when at all possible.

Compression, like all other studio effects, can be done well, and poorly. Compressors are used on the vocals on just about _all_ popular music releases. The dynamic range of the voice is just too much to compete with all the other instruments otherwise. The effect is indeed a 'flattening' of the sound, and it takes on a "Hi-Fi" quality, in the worst sense if used with too heavy a hand. If a vocalist sounds like he/she is virtually 'swallowing' the microphone, you can bet that there is compression used, and the more it sounds like that, the heavier the compression. Listen to a disk jockey on a rock music FM radio station for a perfect example of heavy compression.

It is also routine practice to compress the bass guitar, in order to even out the relative loudness of the notes in the bass line.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 10, 2002).]