Nothing value added here/merely another observation:

Has anyone read/followed the long Anthem thread at the HTF? Several "problems", bugs with some units/not others(hint hint hiss), major software update headaches, etc, yet Sonic F and this unit aint looked at negatively at all?? I dont knows bout you all but if I spent close to $3k and suffered all this stuff/I'd be a little pissed.

The 950's perils are well documented, yet its hard to comprehend how much negative pub Outlaws gotten. I guess some who said Outlaw should have never published a potential release date/and been so late were right (ala the Rotel which kind of just showed up). Sorry for such a meaningless post/just bored!

David,

I’ve been thinking about the Anthem situation also. First, it’s just not Anthem that has had problems. Virtually everyone who markets a pre/pro has had difficulties. What so many of us seem to be forgetting is that these are complicated devices: Flawed algorithms supplied by chip makers, bad Dolby EX flags are just a few of the indignities that these manufactures encounter They also face interface issues with various power amps, power conditioners, or speakers which bring on new challenges.

In particular, the Anthem has more features than you can shake a stick at. This complexity inevitably causes problems and it is no surprise that these failings have been pointed out by their customers who hang out on HTF.

As far as features go, the 950 is no slouch either and we all know that they have had their share of teething problems. As the saying goes, “Every true pioneer eventually gets an arrow in his back”. As time goes on the Outlaws are learning from the field what is right and what needs improvement or modification. And they have worked as hard as they can to try and please their customers

I really commend them for what they’ve done with the 950. It sounds awesome. A few weeks ago I compared my 950 with a buddy’s new Atlantic P2000 and guess what? To my ears it was sonically indistinguishable from the nearly “twice as much” Atlantic (OK, it didn’t look as good as the Atlantic, but that is not important to me especially in a darkened living room watching Lord Of The Rings.)

On top of this, Outlaw is the only company that given its owner’s a voice in a unique forum like this. Who else sets up a consumer hang out, where if the visitors choose (and a few have) they can knock the Outlaw’s own products. It’s unprecedented!!!

Outlaw has certainly made its mistakes yet it seems to be the only company taking heat way out of proportion for the hiccups it’s encountered. I think that once in a while we should step back and give these guys a break and thank them for providing us great gear at even better prices. Even more, we should praise them for letting us speak our minds (sometimes at their expense) in this chat area.

I too, am sorry for the ramble but I wanted to get that off my chest.

Out.

[This message has been edited by jetsetter (edited October 30, 2002).]

Agree! After some thought I think it boils down to 1)alot of po'd people waiting for missed release dates, and 2)with a $3k somewhat complicated pre/pro people seem willing to "accept" these problems, as well as Anthem being a known quanity. A $899 pre/pro from a relative newcomer/first venture into a pre/pro that has some issues, well lets just say the overwhelming naysayer conclusion is "it must be a piece of crap". Myself, I've got a few too many of my own issues to let the 950 get me razzled, I just worked them out and enjoy it.

Oooh, a psychological data point I heard once:

People with cheaper gear (more cost effective ), tend to review their gear more critically than people with more expensive gear.

Why? Because the people with the more expensive gear don't want to confront the potential fact that they may have made a mistake in their purchase. People with cheaper gear don't care as much, because it's easier to "turn the gear over" and get something else. So they can be more realistic about whether a piece meets their needs or not.

Refernced to the reviews at audioreview.com. That's why, for example, if you ever see a pair of $300 bookshelf speakers really well reviewed, more than likely it's the real deal, vs a pair of $10k speakers...

I'll be curious as to when the reviews to the B&K Ref 50 start rolling in. A lot cheaper (street) than the Anthem, but the Ref 30 was really well reviewed on audioreview.com.

But, don't got no triple crossover... So in that regard, the 950 wins for me.

One other thing to chew on. A friend has the Anthem in question and IMHO it is an excellent unit and I wouldn't mind one myself, now for the morsel to chew on. When the 1050 came out($499) the remote was ripped on left and right and just plain disrespected well the AVM-20($3499) comes with guess what......the very same remote!
Just something to think about. Its all in perspective. Most pre-amp have had their share of troubles.



------------------
m-mmeyer
GO TWINS
My DVD's

Yeah, the Anthem has either the newer model, or a slightly different model but still from the same manufacturer remote as the 950.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited November 01, 2002).]

I listened to two 950's that were made before the production halt (the halt that was supposed to fix the hiss) and to two 950's that were made after production resumed. Each of the four 950's hissed noticably in *my* system. Some hissed more than others, but each hissed from far over a foot from my speakers even with the 950's volume set very low. No component I've ever had in my system has hissed as noticably.

I'm keeping my 950 but I really wish it did not hiss so much.

I happened to drop into a shop the other day and heard a setup featuring a Krell CD player, Krell preamp and Krell monoblock amps driving a large pair of ribbon speakers. The hiss was very noticeable, even at a low volume setting, from several feet away. Does this mean Krell makes inferior equipment?

One little item you're conveniently overlooking: The AVM-20 is both hardware and software upgradable and the 950 is not. Sonic Frontiers can correct the problems with their processor and pass those fixes on to their customers. With the Outlaw you're stuck with what you've got.

[This message has been edited by dpippel (edited November 01, 2002).]

It is unfortunately a sign of the times: it seems that good, sound engineering principles are not the norm. I have a friend who has been an analog design angineer since the early 70's. He has repeadedly told me that is is getting extremely difficult to find good _experienced_ analog designers now. All that is taught in electronic engineering classes in colleges today is digital design. Analog gets _very_ little time; it's an afterthought. No wonder that the analog stages of even high priced equipment is inferior to what it was even twenty years ago.

Analog circuits are a mature technology, so I'm not surprised that a quality 20 or 30 year old amp can sound plenty good. After all, our ears are not improving, we're still using the model '1' ear system.

It is unfortunate, if true, that analog designs are actually getting worse from neglect though.

The only reason I 'retired' my Hafler/Carver etc. 2 channel system was to take advantage of x.1 formats. It still sounds fine on 2 channel stuff.

If it sounds good and measures well, it's good. If it measures poorly or sounds bad it's not good. Just IMO and YMMV, of course.

My point of view is simply that instruments and ears both have strengths and weaknesses, so to ferret out issues with equipment one, IMO, should use both.

'If your only tool is a hammer all your problems look like nails'.

My post was "tongue in cheek"- only to show that a certain amount of hiss can be found in even very expensive equipment. As Keven pointed out- you will probably not hear much complaining about it at this price level.

And what's the cost for this feature versus what I paid for my 950?
I'm not complaining. The AVM-20 is a really nice unit, but I'm happy with being "stuck" with my 950. By the way, the Outlaws have mentioned in the past that the 950 could be upgraded, but have not said how- only that they might, or might not, make something available if they felt it necessary. Hope you are enjoying your Rotel 1066- what number software fix, er..., upgrade, have they issued recently?

I don't mean to badmouth the 950 - it's worth what it costs, no argument here. I'm just not certain I can be comfortable with that level of compromise. I'm going to wait and see how it all shakes out as the product matures.

Of all the things missing on it, upgradeable firmware (without using a soldering iron) is a huge deal to me. I don't beleive Rotel is alone in needing to upgrade, but Outlaw is nearly alone in not being able to field update.

But once it matures and bugs are eliminated it may prove a contender for my $$$.

The AVM-20 has a lot of other features besides upgradablity that contribute to the cost of the unit.

Hey, for the price the 950 is a good deal for some people. I ordered mine, tried it for a week and ended up sending it back. Too many compromises for me.


Might. Might not. Maybe. If necessary. Not exactly a commitment. Besides, you'll need a soldering iron if it ever happens.

Do you mean fix as opposed to refering to problems as "features"? 8) I ended up selling my 1066 and sticking with my Marantz AV9000 for now. My point was and remains, however, that many of the issues affecting processors like the Rotel and the Anthem can be corrected because they're upgradable. Any problem you may have with your 950 is there for good.

Am I dense…..what needs upgrading?

At this point there are just some usability issues, like odd selections of processing modes while switching inputs and the DSP always doing BM on the 6 channel inputs. Nothing huge I'm aware of.

The point is there will be issues, almost certainly. And the 950 will require, at minimum, a chip extracter/inserter to update the firmware.

charlie, I don't ever remember you "badmouthing" the 950. You may have- or have had- questions and/or issues with the pre/pro, but you are always very reasonable in explaining your likes or dislikes. And that's what this board is here for- right?

dpippel:I wasn't aware you sold your 1066. I thought you had cancelled your 950 order before it arrived and purchased the Rotel. Did you order a 950 after you received the Rotel?

….I should not be posting today as I am in one of those ‘fey’ moods of mine.
Allrighty then …But….my point being most issues center on the remote interface software, and I never met a remote yet, that it was not an issue of myself adjusting to it. The day they can produce a remote which ‘knows what I’m thinking’ and what I want…. and reacts …I’ll be the first to buy it…(and I think my husband might try using a gismo that could do this to some other nefarious purposes)
What I seem to notice is that several of the other competitors had ‘issues’ immediately after there own release (in a shorter timeframe than the 950 has been out for now) during that time running into one (or more)‘issues’ requiring fixes immediately. Other than hiss, documented to be a problem in some systems while not factoring in most, and an issue not at all uncommon across the board in other brands/other setups the 950 has had no real ‘issues’. I (and many others) have had adequate time to run it through its various paces in our various systems whether we are into 2-channel/HT/SACD/DVD-A’s/ ICBM’s etc.. Why should I suddenly expect it to develop issues at this point? The are far too many unsettled variables coming up in the industry right now for me to care whether or not the Outlaw is ‘upgradable’ it does exactly what I want it to do now. Particularly when you factor the cost of many proposed or offered upgrades on the market and the fact that NO ONE knows for sure if any pre-pro/receiver, is by any stretch of the imagination truly future proofed.

By the time the Outlaw needs an upgrade…the next latest leap forward in SP mode, something which really has a net quality advantage over currently marketed technology (DP11 as compared to DPL). I will be in a MUCH better position to jump on it, if I feel I just have to have it…because I have less invested in the Outlaw.

SLL - In the words of Tony Bruno "beautiful" post. I once offered this about the Rotel (when it seemed like in the first 5 to 6 weeks they made 20 "fixes"/I wondered "fixing what"/or did they simple release it too fast/not ready for PT and good for them had the port for upgrades). I will say the upgrades, a great asset, do seem to be a pain in the arse for some. Me, I'm sure as I neede a post to start listening to SACD. Bottom line upgrade ability is an obvious no brainer lux to have, it just seems there are too many of them necessary. I agree Lena, the hiss/whatelse has there been!!

By the way I did not intend to "conviently" overlook this feature/ I guess in my system I not in the need for it!! Crap I had the Denon AVR 3200 (no DTS, etc) for over five years, I just dont upgrade all that often (yikes I'm lying - in past 12mo new Amp, 950, Turntable, SACD player, Ultimate Outlet, Juice Bar, Cables for all this stuff, new vinyl, now SACD's). The wife is gonna up and leave me!!

Buy the music 'she' likes, kiss her lots while it's playing, tell her it 'inspires' you...... she'll keep you.

Although...if you realy think about it...you can just drop $899 two more times for the next two 950 "upgrades" (whenever in the future they come out) and still be on top of the game price wise.

Jason

I will have to try that Lena:> Jasons got a point here people. By the way the fun has started again at the "I hate the 950 HTF", see the "Outlaw 950 arriving today, what should I expect" post. As I think I'm thru posting stuff over their, its good to see some pro 950 stuff in the replies. Alot of bad to. Oh well, its actually expected as isnt one persons likes anothers dislike??

Davis, as bad as he started out that post, saying it was terrible in 2 channel and bad in HT, in a different post he tells someone that the 950/770 combo sounds better than his Denon 4802 that he replaced...and that is only 1 day after complaining about how bad it sounded and asking if there was a break in period.

And you'd *still* get somewhere between $500 - $700 for a used one too, I bet.

Willscary - which only leads me to think the 950 is already like a "cult" piece or something. Its almost if so much bad speak makes you want to not like and return it, but as you listen for yourself, its as if it changes your mind. Interesting product/consumer result if you ask me. I wish I was a grad student/it would make for some great discussion in class!

The Outlaws said they would fix the hiss problem but so far they haven't fixed it, for people like me.

Many people including me, have gotten replacements from Outlaw that were supposed to not hiss, but the pesky hiss is still there.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 02, 2002).]

Will, I have hiss also. I am lucky enough to be able to turn down the gain on each channel of my amps, which eliminates the hiss. (audible within about 2 inches of the speaker after adjustment, about 3 feet before adjustment) That is why I feel the interaction between the 950 and a high-gain amp is the culprit. The hiss was much worse when my amp was in the shop and I used a Yamaha receiver as a power amp. When I got the amp back, I tried the Yamaha as a pre/pro with my amp, and again the hiss was more than with my 950 and the amp. I feel for you, but only a handful of people are complaining of the hiss...maybe 10-15 total people. They have probably sold at least 100 times that amount of 950s.

I am not downplaying the hiss, but by being able to eliminate it, I am very impressed with the sound of the 950, and will keep it as the hub of my system for many years.

"I am not downplaying the hiss, but by being able to eliminate it, I am very impressed with the sound of the 950, and will keep it as the hub of my system for many years".

Be careful WS - I said this awile ago in "I am starting to understand this hiss thing" thread (I started), and was basically told to FO! Some people think only one thing - Outlaw must be the only player to eliminate the hiss. Things you and I do to eliminate/reduce our hiss is "just getting in the way/counterproductive, stupid, yada - (things I was told I was) of no use!

I have never had any component in my home theater system, ever, that hisses as much as my current model 950 hisses.

WS, I'm glad you were lucky enough to be able to get rid of the hiss you heard out to three feet in your 950 by turning the gain down on each of your power amps.

I eliminated the hiss and can still drive the amp to ear bleeding levels. Of course, the amount of hiss that the Yamaha produced would have drove me nuts.The 950 is quiet compared to it.

Can't go by # of posters. How many posters have never noticed a hiss? Not ten times as many. I bet a lot more people than 10-15 heard an abnormal hiss on the 950, at least until they modified their system (as you have done, successfully) because it is "too sensitive" to hiss.

Best,

Will

And how many aren't really cognizant of the 950 Saloon, and just ordered out of an ad in S&V, and never even thought to check but have it anyway? And how many people have had it, returned units, and just never posted at all?

Most people don't have it. Some people do. The Outlaws say they are still working on it. People who are considering a purchase need to know that.

Kevin:
Have you heard anything more from Outlaw about their renewed efforts to fix the hiss?

You know, the more I think about it, I'm beginning to think that the whole hiss issue may be more related to the basic setup of the 'building blocks' that the manufacturers have adopted in producing 'a home theatre pre/pro', than to a design flaw per se. I've read of hiss on even high priced units, and this does not make sense unless the manufacturers are being 'forced' by some convention to design the signal flow in a way that may produce 'convenience' at the expense of things like noise. Think about the tortured wank that is 'bass management'; not very elegant in my opinion, but a 'standard' none the less. The noise I actually measured on two 950s was the equavilent of 12-13 bit noise performance: I can't think of how someone could knowingly design something that bad unless they were constrained by designing to a certain 'blueprint' of signal flow. I have already established that the noise is worse when the 950 is converting audio to digital and back to analog in order to perform some DSP function. However, I do the same thing in my workstation every day, and without any audible hiss. The digital volume control maybe? They aren't inherently noisy unless very poorly designed, which I can't imagine is the case in the 950. The only culprit that I can see remaining is some non-optimum bit shifting, perhaps to acccomadate things like 'trim settings', 'bass management' and the like. Perhaps the designers have their hands tied to a certain extent by the nature of the beast.

In any event, I would love to see a schematic diagram and block diagram of the 950 to see what exactly is going on, design wise. Fat chance of that however.

Oh well, just geeky ramblings.....



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 03, 2002).]

SH: Just that they are still working on it. I did get the impression that the solution was going to be sooner than later, but I don't know how to gauge that.

I'll agree somewhat with what you said. I certainly believe that Outlaw didn't go out to design a unit that hisses (in some people's systems ). But I also believe that some of the problem might be whatever compromises had to go into actually producing a pre/pro of the 950's capabilities at the price point it's at. Me, myself, and I, kinda sorta point the finger at Eastech. All I know is that the 950 hisses more than the Sony TA-E9000ES pre/pro it replaced in my system. However, directly due to the additional capabilities the 950 has that the Sony didn't, and the quite acceptable sound quality, I did choose to keep it, to enjoy it, but to still hopefully wait for a fix too.

Modern pre/pros with ICs, boards, complex computer code, and DSP algorythms *can* be produced with minimal amounts of hiss. As we are all finding out, maybe it's not as easy as a straight-ahead analog pre/pro, but it is possible.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited November 04, 2002).]

The Outlaws have said on more than one occassion that they would fix the hiss problem that many people are hearing. And they have said on more than one occassion that they had fixed it. They even stopped production for months earlier this year in order to fix the hiss problem. But at least in my case, they have not been able to fix the hiss that existed from the VERY BEGINNING, with the 950 in my home theater, despite the fact that I have invited their local technicians in Los Angeles to hear the hiss here first hand.

The Outlaws must know there's a hiss problem with the 950. The question is if they'll fix it now, after having tried, tried and tried to do so over many months. The 950 is getting on in its life cycle. Maybe a 950 Rev 2, or a 951, will be the answer.

Kevin and Soundhound and many others who hear the hiss would no doubt, also invite the Outlaws to their homes to hear the hiss, as I have done.


[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 04, 2002).]

Looking again at the title of this thread, I too have a What's-up-with-that question: I don't know if this has been asked before (so forgive me if it has), but how come there was no mention of the hiss whatsoever during the beta tests? Was it not present or did the testers simply not hear it or...? Just curious, that's all.

Thanx,
Sanjay

I think there was mention of beta testing before, and I think that at least Will brought it to their attention from the start. All I can say is that if _I_ had been one of the testers, I _know_ that the hiss, among other things would have been brought to their attention, with measurements to support it.

Will,

Ever since I started reading these threads I have noticed that you are constantly harping on the Outlaws. Yes Will, we know that you are encountering hiss. You have somehow managed to remind everyone of this in so many threads that it has become old news. My unit does not hiss. On the other hand I have no doubt you are encountering a hiss problem.

With Outlaw’s record, I am sure they have an ongoing effort to look at ways of reducing your hiss and anyone else’s setup that is experiencing it. But your constant nagging on this does no one any good and calls into question the Outlaws desire to get everyone’s system as “right” as they can. If you are really unhappy send it back, but I am tired of you hijacking so many threads to complain.

Out.

Can't. Had it well over 30 days. I kept thinking they'd fix the problem. Maybe someday, they will. Even if they don't, it's not a bad unit.

Many other people feel the same as I do. It's not a bad unit, but it does hiss in many people's systems, but not in everyone's.

I'm glad your 950 does not hiss.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 04, 2002).]

jetsetter,

Sorry, but you are just out in left field. Prospective buyers need to be constantly aware of the issues for products like the 950.

Myself, I'm just not willing to fork over $899 for a product that has been shown in numerous tests -- ears and measurements --(magazine print and soundhound test results) to have a really lousy noise floor (i.e.hiss).

I'd like to thank people like Will and SH, for their contributions.

I'm sure many other people feel the same way I do.

I want the truth, and yes, I can handle the truth.

[This message has been edited by bstan (edited November 04, 2002).]

Thanx soundhound. Does anyone remember what ended up being the consensus of the beta testers? Did they somehow get units (as many have from the get-go) that simply don't hiss?

Sanjay

I have no first hand experience with subcontracting east asian manufacturing companies, but rumor is that parts subbing on the factory floor can be a real issue with some contractors. If this is the case it's possible the early production units were made with 'B' parts and Eastech is trying some 'C' parts to test the water, or something like that. Also, a 5 unit 'beta test' isn't much of a beta - no disrespect to the testers, but you really need more diversity than 5 people can provide.

None of the beta testers heard a hiss from more than a few inches away. We'd all have remembered if they had reported an audible hiss from many feet away. Maybe the beta testers had systems that were not "hiss sensitive." As far as I know they didn't do S/N measurements like Soundhound did later on. The beta testers were volunteers who used their home systems and their judgement. The handful of beta testers did not encounter the exagerated hiss some of us hear, where the hiss can be heard from many feet from the speaker.

The onus to find S/N problems was NEVER with the beta testers. It's with Quality Control. The 950 should have been Q/C'd before it entered into production. While the Q/C responsibility may rest with Eastech, it also rests with Outlaw. Regarding who was responsibile for a subordinates actions, its ultimately the person in charge who is responsible. President Truman had a famous sign on his desk which said something like "The Buck Passing Stops Here."

It's pretty apparent now, unlike during the beta tests, that the 950 just plain isn't meeting its published S/N specs.

If this was true since the 950 first shipped, the Outlaws should have known the 950 was missing it's published S/N specs and had a noise floor problem, a while ago.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 05, 2002).]

There were 4 original beta testers-they were: merc (John Morris), Robert A. Fowkes (RAF), JeffLH and Gene Lockaby. I believe merc has addressed the hiss issue (as it has affected him) in some of his past posts. By original, I mean these were the volunteer testers who signed up and were picked from the Outlaw Community. I would not be surprised if there were others who were directly or indirectly connected to the Company.

i wonder what would have become of analog tape recording systems, had hiss been such a big issue.

it was dealt with in various ways (noise reduction, gating, etc.), each method with it's compromise of the original sound.

marketing types' demand that cd be silent is what screwed the format up in the beginning.

there is nothing wrong with some noise (hiss), if it is constant in amplitude and doesn't effect the sound reproduction. any analog to analog or analog to digital format hisses. to remove the hiss is a compromise.

studio doctoring is the culprit. all natural occurrences of sound events are filled with background noise. studios eliminate all natural background sound and replace it with selected, synthesized sounds. music and soundtrack.

my theory is that hiss is acceptable in analog formats because they are the closest thing to the natural sound being copied and therefore, pleasing and relaxing to listen to. digital reproduction, on the other hand, has some underlying irritation to humans that leads to a natural curiosity to find what isn't right about it.

my opinion is that the unit that hisses is the best at reproduction of the source. all the high-end setups i listen to exhibit hiss, except the ones that gate it. this is no doubt why some 'units' hiss more than others, as some people have better power, cables, speakers, amps, etc. not being an electrical engineer, i don't have a clue as to why that is the case...it simply is. the hissing setups also sound the best. most revealing is probably the better word.

if thine hiss offends thee, gate it. gating is fairly cheap and easy to incorporate into any system. it will eliminate hiss (and everything else) during quiet times, but, 2 things: 1., it will compromise sound and 2., since no one listens in an anechoic chamber, our ears will point us to the next offender in the long list of background noises from myriad sources.

i think the 950 is so much better than 'not bad'. outlaw squeezed every drop of reproductive power out of the chipset, dacs, wires, cables, etc. some people don't like that. they are used to a muted appliance that hides the various evils of pcm. i wish the hiss were gone...but not at the price of reproduction quality. the dvd-a redo of 'dark side of the moon' had better start off with tape hiss or i'm throwin' it out the window.

Bosso:

I think the thing that is really wrong in this whole issue is that the 950 is advertised as having "24 bit" performance. Real 24 bit reproduction is _dead silent_: my 24 bit workstation sure is. The 950s noise performance is somewhere around the 13 bit level - I think it's more an issue of the marketing types wirting checks that the engineering department cannot cash.

In my experience, the 'hiss' generated by things like analog tape is smoother sounding than the "grittier' hiss generated in some digital systems. It's quite telling that a very substantial number of original masters still are recorded and mixed to good old analog tape.

‘Truth’ lies on both sides of the fence. Can you handle my truth? That the 950 tweaked performs better than what I have heard anywhere near its price range. The ‘truth’ that I did not have to buy the 950 as far as budget is concerned. (I take that back,…I should have a budget but for once in my life it got tossed out the window) That I actually choose it for sound. (Hiss and warts and all…) That anyone purchasing any pre-pro at any price trades off something somewhere? I think Jetsetter is getting cranky, because it’s a bummer when you are enjoying your system, have no problems, want to simply reflect and rejoice over your new sound. And yes Will does have the right to get cranky on his side, because in a few (people’s systems ) it’s appeared to be a problem, - and its probably like being left out in the cold, while everyone else is in by the fire drinking rum toddies and
I chose to give the Outlaw a try after considering many/many/ things in this area. (Not the least of which was sound).. I find I have a leaning for transparency in a system the Outlaw fulfilled plus the ability to run DVD-A (Or SACD) if I wish, analogue passthru, incredible HT performance, that would be hard to beat with any system., and the effortless power the 950/770 combo produces. (Which mind you came in very handy when shopping for a speaker upgrade as it did not limit my speaker choices as regards the high-current amp requirement models)

I find it really ironic, that while I had heard other receivers and pre-pro’s it was the Outlaw that led me down the path to a speaker upgrade because I wanted to more fully realize the potential of a system, on the 2 channel and passthru side although my original goal was for a stellar HT setup (achieved).
Also that the well burned in Beethoven’s I heard in one room on the flagship elite Pioneer receiver, and in another on B&K. (Sorry did not pay attention to the model on this set was getting tired of listening back and forth). Did not bring out the detail and sound that the 950/770 does at home with this pair. And it should not be an issue of ‘bad room’ acoustics at the demos. Because I’m in the situation of having no ‘tweak’ room for acoustics in this room. I’m shoehorning the system in. And so far they’ve just been uncrated and placed down with no regard for toe in/toe out/ distance from wall / bass tweaking/ soundstage optimization.
And the Outlaw makes them sing….

SH from the spec point I see your argument, But call me weird…I would not even let the salesman access the specs on FR etc when he wanted to ‘run get those for me’, on the Sonus Faber’s, Martin Logans, When I was listening…I didn’t want to be swayed by paper. I can tell you I was able to pick things like which speakers had a silk tweeter Vs metal, listening through the different rooms. Every time I asked the salesman (this is silk isn’t it etc) I was right, and I did not know who had it and who didn’t when I went in. Did you know that in the beginning of The Vince Guaraldi Trio’s recording of “Christmas Time Is Here” (most would recognize this from ‘A Charlie Brown Christmas)’. That that’s definitely a brush being circled on a snare. Yep - definitely a brush on a snare not a hiss on a snare is what I hear.


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited November 04, 2002).]

Lena:

I'm glad you are enjoying the daylights out of your 950 - BUT - _SOMEBODY_ has to stand up and try to make marketers accountable for their claims - you win, and we all win in the long run for it. After all, Ford thought the gas tank on the Pinto was just fine! Now, I actually had a Pinto, and had no problems with it, and I'm not saying the 'hiss' issue is a life or death issue like a defective gas tank, but I hope you have an open enough mind to see that in the end, the people who are crying 'foul' are on YOUR side.


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 04, 2002).]

If any tape of Rossanea Barr comes on (Where she sings the National Athem) and my Outlaw blows up and kills me I’ll be sure and remind my mother to sue them.

Soundhound just ignore me this week I’m being flippant and giddy…new speakers do that, and the Center speaker comes in tonight!!!

Your "truth" is as valid as any posted by anyone on this board. No apologies required.

Bravo SH!

The audio industry wins when misleading specs are exposed.

True, to a point. But every place I've ever worked beta testing was a big part of the QA effort and run by the QA department. How else would it work?



Apparently true. I know there are as many ways to measure things as there are measurers, but the specs given are stellar, whereas my 30 year old stereo preamp is quieter than the 950.

Charlie we're in agreement.

The beta testers dealt with Outlaw Q/C in America, not Eastech Q/C in Malaysia. Outlaw had a hand in the Q/C process. The Outlaws should have known the 950 missed its S/N spec (causing audible hiss in sensitive systems) from day one.

Lena, Great two words to start off any post with. Did you do that on purpose? (Loved the spot party too.)


Will, That's the part I don't get.

With the amount of companies that abandon their product for next year's model, I have to commend Outlaw for being responsive to their customers and working very hard to fix the hiss. But I don't understand why this problem wasn't noticed earlier on, either by Eastech or Outlaw or the betas. Maybe the differences between the prototypes and the production pieces was more significant than earlier thought?

Best,
Sanjay

Whatever........

I don't get it either. I can't see for the life of me how even a casual measurement of noise wasn't done - _and followed up on_.

sh: i just wanted to see if you were still out there.

i am positive the 24 bits thing is a scam.

i wonder if your workstation would still be dead quiet if you stacked up a rack of outboard, unbalanced components to process a recording pulled off your cable tv feed and mixed by monitoring through 6 channel ht speakers powered by a couple kwatts of amp?

i agree with your argument. specs shouldn't be bull----.

as an aside...i been wonderin' something...if you take the 6 channel analog feed off your dvd-a or sacd player into your daw, it should be dead quiet, no?

Yes, it would be as quiet as the connection would allow. This would have to be analog, since no SACD player has digital outputs...yet

If I had a rack of outboard equipment (I actually do) feeding my ProTools, the noise performance would suffer. Plug-ins are the universal choice in DAWs. All digital - "perfect sound forever" I use mostly the reverb plug-ins. One of my most used outboard units is a vintage Collins vacuum tube limiter/compressor - I use it for vocals: in goes, well _you_ and out comes ELVIS! Marguaritas have a similar effect.....



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 04, 2002).]

Not to nitpick but...OK, a small one. Poineer has a SACD/DVD-A player and dCS has a SACD transport, both of which output DSD data (in encrypted form, via Firewire). As you would expect, to decrypt the data, the Pioneer player needs to be hooked up to the company's matching receiver; likewise, the dCS transport needs to be mated with their Elgar D/A converter.

Best,
Sanjay

Yes, you are right. My workstation uses AES/EBU digital connections however.

You have a wicked-quick multifarious mind. I like it. You don’t let me and my Thesaurus get away with anything.
Oh and Sanjay….you were right…. I don’t step over the dog, and I got over that ‘volume knob issue’ I pitched a tissy on.

http://home.earthlink.net/~soundhound/analog.jpg


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 04, 2002).]

charlie,


Unfortunately I have years of experience, and you are correct even with ISO 9000 certified Asian manufacturers. In fact, to make sure the manufacturing line keeps running, anything can get substituted and sometimes without the proper QC follow-thru.

The silent killer is actually short-cuts in the design phase though.

How soon we forget... Hiss is good? Because it lets all of the original signal through?

I don't think so. Especially if the hiss is obstructing the original signal. Especially if the hiss wasn't part of the original signal in the 1st place, and is being added by the pre/pro.

I have had analog preamps before. Adcom & Nakamichi. Even with late 60's/early 70's lps from ANALOG TAPE RECORDINGS, they both were much quieter than the 950.

I personally don't care if there is high end gear out there that hisses. Unacceptable. If I had a piece like that, I'd return it. Especially if I paid a whole lot more than the 950 for it. The 950 hisses more than my Sony TA-E9000ES did. Not because the Sony gated its performance, not because there were mute circuits cycling in and out, and not because the Sony was adding anything that wasn't in the source. But that's what the 950 is doing. I personally can't believe that people are actually making excuses for the hiss in the 950 now, or trying to rationalize that the hiss is good in that it's letting the source through unimpeded...

Back to your normally scheduled programming...

jetsetter - I guess you better watch what you say/as any attempt at being a voice of reason, or simply realizing that we are talking pre/pro here not something god for bid REALLY important, and people tend to jump on you. It happened to me/but not to sweat it/I've added an SACD player to the mix and all I can say is wow!

On another note/notice the original thread grows at the HTF. Now some Anthem owners are experiencing hiss/static loudly when set up is set to large mains and large surrounds (think this was it) in their CENTER channel. Yet no one/nary a complaint bought the unit - oh yea its that "port" that will allow the "fix" on my $3200 product! Nice!!!!!!!!!!!!

Geeze - I posted one post above after reading jetsetters post at top of this page. Reading each post is amazing (SLL and Bossobass excluded) and really solidifies my original topic/post.

How can the Anthem have its issues, me start a topic, and the 950 get the crap beaten out of it like my Oakland Raiders every goddamn week! I said this several months ago (and I think the Outlaws may have agreed to it) but some of you will NEVER be happy and would benfit by working it out with Outlaw. I don't buy this crap bought "the public needs to know", "you cant handle "My" truth" bs, its a freeking electronic component, not a cure for cancer or something.

Crap/unload it on ebay, buy the freeking Anthem or Rotel and spend your days upgrading the software. That way you wont fart all over this forum, and "WE", who actually like our prepro can discuss it.

There, "can you handle MY truth"!

"(and I think the Outlaws may have agreed to it)" and not by continuing to work on a fix that appears to bw wholly "system dependent", hence how they gonna ever totally "fix" it. Those continuing to wait for this "fix"/I dont know, but how else would some users hiss, some not, some never, some a litttle, some a lot, some reduce gain on Parasound Amp and "fix" it themselves, some cant do this, some...........

If specifications become meaningless all consumers are hurt. While it's not a cure for cancer, it is a non-trivial point IMO and deserves to be addressed.

Or do you think allowing a marketing firm to claim anything is somehow useful?

If real measurements are ignored specifications are meaningless. If the Anthem has issues that's also good to know, but it in no way improves the performance of the 950. And, as was so clearly pointed out, at least the Anthem can have minor issues addressed without invoking the services of FedEx.

The 950 is a nifty $900 pre/pro. It also seems to miss it's specs by a big margin and in many ways offers performance (S/N ratio) that equipment decades old can beat with ease.

charlie, maybe you should be in the Dynaco forum, getting that classic sound (a little noisy, not much frequency range/response).
When I got my 950, the first thing I did was plug it in to see the nice display. Funny, there was no hiss...............in other words "sound system" is the operative phrase. I did have some hum when I plugged everything in, must have been the 950, right? What's that, check all the grounds, cables, etc? Wow, what a revelation.

____________________________________________

this is the type of comparison david s is talking about, and i agree with him. sorry charlie, but comparing a decades old stereo preamp to the 950 is like comparing a bi-plane to the space shuttle.

the only excuse in my post ( 'some' noise is not a bad thing if...) was not to excuse the 950, but all prepros. the rest of the post is purely generalized conjecture. where are the engineers when you need them? identifying the problem is half the solution.

there is one helluva lotta traffic routed through that little box, but surely someone could say: [blank] is the cause of hiss which is more apparent if you route [blank] component with [blank] component because [blank]. of course, if i were outlaw, i wouldn't say a word until i knew the answer, which i am sure they work at every day.

i don't know how close my unit comes to meeting spec (all specs published, not just s/n), but do you really think the spec should read " this specification may vary depending on your particular configuration of the infinite combinations of components, their relative quality, interconnects, the particular order of path selection and format"? or..."this spec is a worst case scenario and will not be correct for the vast majority of owners"?

in a similarly complex routing system of pro sound, there may be a ground loop noise that can't be lived with. i never remember anyone focusing on the published s/n specs in the manuals. though tracking, finding and eliminating the offending component, cable or part is always a nightmare...it remains as the only way to solve the problem.

At least 2 examples of the 950 have been measured for S/N ratio while not connected to anything else and of those 2 examples, both had poor results. Even more disturbing was the fairly large variation in measurements. This indicates that not all 950's are the same even when produced contemporaniously. Now anyone familiar with Demming and those who have applied and extended his methods will realize some variation is unavoidable, but I would submit the degree of variation that is being observed and the poor average performance is troubling.

Perhaps the 950 would fare well in the Dynaco forums, I don't know. I do know that audio manufaturers seem to be playing fast and loose with specs lately and when no one notices it will only get worse. I don't expect absolute silence, but when I have a garage full of 20 year old equipment that exhibits better performance (and worse advertised specs) I get concerned about 'progress'.

Sorry Dude: I happen to use Dynaco MK IIIs to drive my side surrounds and a Stereo 70 for my rear surrounds. Both are _dead quiet_, and having actually measured _and built_ them, their frequency and power responses are extremely flat to within +- 1db to 15Khz for power response and 20Khz for frequency response. And guess what - no firmware upgrades - and that is since - oh yes, 1973! I really should dump those worthless things......

http://home.earthlink.net/~soundhound/dynaco.jpg



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 05, 2002).]

Not at all. I think it's pretty clear that the measurements have to be taken in a case like this of the 950 alone and referenced to a standardised or noted reference. For instance in the case of S/N many amps are measured 'unweighted referenced to maximum output'. Outlaw claims a S/N ratio of 102db for the 950, which measurement I assume did not involve cryogenicly cooling the unit before testing. If this is an honest spec then any 950 pulled from the production line should exhibit similar performance. At least 2 of 2 did not. It's that simple and has nothing to do with any other equipment in the system. This kind of noise figure can easily become an issue if the room is quiet enough and the connected equipment conspire to raise it to the level of audibility. Sure, some rooms and equipment won't do this, but the whole purpose of very low noise equipment is that it shouldn't matter in any reasonable case. If that 102db were real no reasonable system would exhibit hiss sourced from the 950.

Now customer satisfaction - that may have something to to do with the system the 950 is attached to. Some listening areas are probably noisy and some systems either mask or compensate for the hiss. I live in an area where if I step outside I can hear a gust of wind coming through the trees for several seconds, then as it passes over me I can hear the trees creaking as they bend ever so slightly in the wind. During the morning birds sing and in the evening, if it's not too cold, frogs may be heard easily. It can be very quiet in my house, and my system is very quiet when it should be, and it matters to me. The 950 might work for me, but my experience with the 1050 has not been encouraging. YMMV.


[This message has been edited by charlie (edited November 05, 2002).]

charlie, do you now have a 950?

Charlie:

Here in Los Angeles, if I step outside, I can hear the gentle rumbling of earthquakes, or the soothing crackle of forest fires, and sometimes the cheerful sound of riots.

I'm taking a wait and see. Originally I was pretty pumped to get one, but with all the issues I'm going to wait for the issues to be either fixed, explained or ignored. If that doesn't happen in a timely manner I'll find something else.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by soundhound:
[B] Sorry Dude: I happen to use Dynaco MK IIIs to drive my side surrounds and a Stereo 70 for my rear surrounds. Both are _dead quiet_, and having actually measured _and built_ them, their frequency and power responses are extremely flat to within +- 1db to 15Khz for power response and 20Khz for frequency response. And guess what - no firmware upgrades - and that is since - oh yes, 1973! I really should dump those worthless things......
QUOTE]

No surprise, I also have a pair of MKIIIs, and ST70, and MKIV. The noise is about equal to my 950; ie with my ear at the tweeter, I can hear a slight hiss, and w/the tube units, a slight hum as well. From 1', probably not unless its midnight. From 2', no way. The dynas have fairly low gain, my speakers are around 90dB sensitivity. My reference was to the fact that the 950 or any other processor doesn't operate in a vacuum. Cables, ancillary equipment, RF proximity, all sorts of things are involved. I expect Outlaw has had a hard time replicating many of the hiss problems reported, thus an easy fix is elusive.

Well every place is a tradeoff of some sort. Quiet and solitude isn't desireable to everyone. I'm sort of isolated and the area isn't a tropical paradise. This is a high desert area so in the summer it's hot during the day and cold at night. In the winter it's cold during the day and really cold at night. We do see sunshine about 300+ days a year, and even in winter it's warm on your back. It was -20 the last few mornings though....

Maybe if I got a 950 I could harness that to chill it....

Yes, but specifications _DO_ live in a vacuum - they are an _absolute_ measurement of the performance of a particular piece of equipment. Those specifications are published. The 950 does NOT meet those published specifications for noise. It can't get much more black and white than that!

If Outlaw is having a hard time replicating the noise problem, I offer a simple 3 step procedure:

1) Walk to the warehouse.

2) Pull a 950 at random from stock.

3) Measure the noise.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 05, 2002).]

Soundhound......get OUTTTT.....

(I have family out there...I watch the news for the Earthquake reports..)

This wide swing in noise floors points to poor design/manufacturing QC in my estimation.

Possibly some cheaper parts with >20% tolerances might be getting onto the PCBs. In certain units these tolerances add up to an optimized noise floor in others they just make the noise floor terrible.

SoundHound -

Just curious, when you measured the S/N on the 950, was the selected input shorted, floating, loaded w/ x ohms or....?

What is common practice?

I measured mine with shorted input, open input, and 10K ohm input termination. The results were pretty much the same. Standard practice varies between all these. Shorted input is fine if you take into consideration that the input will be driven by a low impedance source. I also measured with both wide bandwidth, and a 20Khz low pass filter, in order to sort out out-of-band noise like clock bleed etc.

Whole lotta shak'in goin on......

I love LA!

Will, you'll have to speak up: I can't hear you over the rumbling.........

Going off-topic for just a moment. Man, you triggered a memory. I was living in West LA during the Rodney King riots, and I'll never forget that constant burning smell in the air whenever I stepped outside my apartment. I don't remember ever smelling that with forest fires, no matter how close they got.

Lena, here in Los Angeles we've had fires, mudslides, earthquakes, riots, and even a 200 car pile-up a couple of days ago. Waiting for plague and pestilence to complete the cycle.

Best,
Sanjay

[This message has been edited by sdurani (edited November 05, 2002).]

jeepers....and all I have to worry about is a big wind picking me and my little dog "toto' up!

Nothing really fun ever happens in _Dallas_

Same here for Minnesota. Just COLD.

------------------
m-mmeyer
GO TWINS
My DVD's

Many of us have invited Outlaw to hear the 950 in our systems. They haven't take us up on it because I suspect they do know what the source of the problem is. Just that, yes, they must be having a hard time tracking down how to fix it. How to cause the problem? Use Klipsch (or other really high sensitivity) speakers, and/or Acurus (among other specific types of) amplification.

They should have known about its poor S/N measurements a while ago.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited November 06, 2002).]

Kevin,

Good observation!

Will

I do not own a 950 but find great pleasure in my 1050. After following this thread and other threads of discontent, I find it amazing that some peoples can't let go. It seems reasonable that if one were unhappy with a certain product that they would take advantage of the return policy and move on. There are all kinds of pre pros available. Surely the senseable thing to do is find the one that meets your needs and expectations.
Someone told me once, that, unfortunately common sense wasn't that common!
oh well just musings of an old man.

Being vocal accomplishes several things, among them:

- The squeaky wheel gets greased. Outlaw is very aware of this subject, and won't be allowed to forget soon. This awareness may or may not translate into a fixed 'C' revision for the 950, but you can bet the next prepro will get more internal examination.

- Potential customers deserve to know what to look for in their 30 day trial period. I wish there had been a list of 'known issues' listed prominently somewhere regarding the 1050. I've run into several of the 'known' problems after my 30 days were up and it kinda ticks me off.

- Any new workarounds will be injected into these topics, like the 'Merc fix' for double bass. This is a very cool thing to have access to, since often a good workaround is as good as a fix. The 'Merc fix' is particularly cool in this regard.

In the past I have never linked the many conversations I have seen about ‘Hiss’ in other systems. I’ll try to do this if I have time a bit in the future. It might be intreasting for those that do have the time and like to crunch specs when I can access model #’s to see if the Noise Floor manuf.listed on each of these models equals out to the SPL reading that some find in their own home systems.

Here’s Greg S setup: http://home.earthlink.net/~kfscoll/
And here’s what he said about his hiss when talking to another guy who had hiss in his Marantz.
“Let me know if you ever found a solution or if you just concluded that the hiss was "normal." The shop where I purchased my receiver from tells me that the hiss is simply the nature of the beast.
FWIW, my speakers are Klipsch References, which are extremely efficient and which tend to pick up the slightest bit of noise.”

“With the DVD input selected and the receiver set to "Analog Direct" mode, the level of hiss, though clearly audible at max gain, wasn't measurable (both A- and C-weighted, fast and slow), which means it was at most 50 dB at one inch from my tweeter at max gain. The CD input's level of hiss with the same receiver settings is even less. However, if I turn on any type of digital signal processing (DPL-II, dts-neo:6, etc.) when the receiver is in analog input mode, the noise floor raises significantly...I measured 71 dB at one inch from the tweeter. However, I suspect that's just what you get when you try to apply DSP to an analog signal, and it's easy to get around...only use DSP on digital signals! When I do that, the noise floor doesn't raise at all. In order to test the DSP noise floor with digital signals, though, I had to find a low-level digital source to compare to, because the receiver mutes its output when it can't detect a digital signal. So, I found a very low-level digital signal (I have a CD where several minutes of near-silence were recorded), and when I applied a DSP mode to this digital signal, the noise floor didn't raise at all -- completely different from the DSP's effect on analog signals.”

And here is a Chris T’s thoughts on the subject back to Greg S.
“I'd say that hiss is normal
Total hiss depends on the noise and condition of all the equiptment. It also includes any line noise that can be caused by lamps and appliances on the same circuit. And also be interference that wires/cables pick up from transformers and such. At max gain I get 55db measured 1 inch from my tweeter. This is on a sound card analog out and separate rotel amplification. If the layer of hiss bothers you during movies, then I'd consider it a time to isolate the problem. If the tweeter hisses at max volume then I don't think you should worry.”

That's interesting, but not uncommon. Hiss at maximum gain is not unusual or even rare, depending on how much excess gain a system has. A more useful figure is noise (hiss) at a usable gain setting, say noise level while listening to loud music. Every system I've ever had exhibited some noise at max gain, but never any significant amount at a gain setting that would equate to music at 100 db, or even 115 db. That would mean peaks of 25dbw with 90 db/watt speakers, or approximately 350 watts.

I think that's what some 950 users are hearing - noise at an otherwise useful gain setting. I suspect the '11' mark on the Marantz above is well into clipping, and thus not really useful.

Those results sound typical. It seems the common denominator in all these is that the noise is higher when the pre/pro is converting an analog signal to digital, and back to analog. Mine is the same. This _should not_ be the case, if the onboard converters are anywhere near the advertised resolution of '24 bits'. Again, I can digitize and convert back to analog on my digital audio workstation _and_ do a bunch of DSP processing (more than the 950 will ever hope to do) and the result is dead silent. The 'actual' real-world resolution of my workstation is around 20 bits.

I have mentioned this before, but it bears repeating: line noise generally has _nothing_ to do with steady state elevated noise floor. Keep in mind that there is AC line filtering onboard almost all components, and the power supply in all devices filter out the remaining 'line noise', outputting DC for the circuits inside. On top of that, there is local de-coupling near the power input pins of almost all ICs inside the unit. If there is anything that gets through, is is generally things like buzzes, pops, clicks - but not steady state hiss. Also, most "power line conditioners" have nothing more than metal oxide varistors inside them, and their _only_ purpose is to protect against gross overvoltage, for example from a lighting strike. If you want an actual power line _filter_, units like the TrippLite "IsoBar" series are excellent.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 06, 2002).]

Yes but that is what most hiss in the 950 has been exactly described at: and thus not really useful.
Hiss at a few inches or foot out at un-realistic gain. (+10)
With no hiss/ or some hiss only at ‘the ear at fabric’ tweeter distance when at usable gain.

And whether or not This _should not_ be the case it does appear to be in various forms and configurations a common denominator in many units produced by other Companys.

I'm not concerned with those cases personally because they IMO are unrealistic. What does concern me are the reports of 950 hiss audible out to several feet at or near useful listening volumes.

Those cases should basically never happen in any reasonable system.

EDIT:

Also, keep in mind that on a prepro like the 950 +10 may be a useful gain setting if it's been properly setup such that '0' is 105 db.


[This message has been edited by charlie (edited November 06, 2002).]

Lena- Most of the comments on the 950's hiss are useful and meaningful. In a lot of cases, people are directly comparing the hiss in the 950 to a previous component too.

The hiss in my 950 is volume independent. Don't matter none if I have the volume set at +10 dB or -50 dB.

The hiss from all of my speakers is evident out to about 2 feet. I do not have to put my ear up against the tweeter and turn my head just so to hear it. For my rear center, the distance is 4 ft. That impedes into my listening position.

Others have posted than at normal listening volumes, they can hear hiss out to 10 - 12 ft. That is probably more rare, but I've personally never heard of any other component (except for a malfunctioning one) where the hiss was that bad.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited November 06, 2002).]

Lena, nobody here is complaining about hiss from a few inches or at an unrealistic gain.

Here is an example:

I have a 1050 and when I play a movie back at '60' (80 is wide open) I get peaks a bit over 105 db. Now a few seconds of reflection inform me that:

1 - This is pretty damn loud.
2 - A few more db and I'll be into clipping.
3 - Taking 1&2 together I conclude that somewhere around 65 or 70 is all the useful gain I have.

At 65 the system is dead silent with any source, analog or digital selected. This is admirable but not really a requirement - a bit of noise would be OK.

At 80 it's silent too, but that's not the point. When I had a 'big amp' on the mains a bit of noise was present at this setting, audible to about 1 - 2 inches. Also note that this would result in peak output around 135 db if all the parts were capable. In reality I would get amp clipping somewhere around 1Kw/channel followed shortly by speaker destruction and PSH.

At usable volumes with the external amp 1050 noise was essentially zero.

This topic is perhaps more appropriate for the "hissy-fit" forum.

Be that as it may, here are my observations on hiss:

1. A quality audio system with no input should exhibit no audible hiss at even less-than-normal listening distance (I will arbitrarily define as 6 feet). If it does, the problem is with the system and most likely the amplifier(s). My normal listening distance is about 20 feet and the remaining comments are based on that distance. I do not hear ANY hiss from my system in no-actual-input mode at that distance from any source EXCEPT the 950. At my normal listening distance, the hiss from the 950 is detectable but very low. I should perhaps also say that while I do not have "perfect pitch", etc. etc. my hearing is tested every year as part of the physical demanded by my employer and it happens that it is excellent i.e. quite sensitive [despite the abuse from loud music during my wild and crazy twenties!].

2. Beyond that, the expected / acceptable hiss depends upon the quality of the source. I still listen to much vinyl, and hiss / surface noise exceeds what I hear on my 950 - by a lot for some recordings, not by much for a few, and by very little for my best. Hiss from my tuner seems to depend on the quality of the station source and from most but not all stations is below that from the 950 on movie inputs; from the best stations is almost (not quite) inaudible. Hiss from CDs OR DVDs when played through my analog stereo system is totally inaudible even from less-than-normal listening distances (in many ways their only saving grace, pardon the preaching), and this is what I would have expected from a digital source had I not read the many posts before ordering.

3. So my standard digital audio source - CDs - is notable for lack of hiss/noise. The HT experenience through dolby / dts / etc. is not. Is it a problem with pre/pros? A problem with home theater / dolby / dts / etc? A problem with signal complexity? Bottom line: I listend to cheaper units, I listend to expensive units, I listened to outrageous units. The level of hiss varied - generally on a curve related to price - but in no case reached zero at normal listening levels.

SLL - for more "hisssy interesting reads" check out the PS Audio Power forum and the general forum at Audio Aslymn(sp). By the way, luck you, when I interjected the same obdervations last month, this forum ripped me a new one. How dare I try and "downplay" an obvious QC problem in Malaysia Yada yada.

Its nice to know there are some who belive interjecting this is reasonable/and offer for our reading pleasure.

I have been in audio for a very long time, and I have seen a 'dumbing down' in quality which I think started about the time home theatre came into being. You may or may not have heard of or had experience with names like Mcintosh, Marantz, Fisher, Scott etc, when they were quality companies, before they were bought up by Enron Anyway, it used to be that conponents routinely _exceeded_ their published specifications, and the name badge on the front of the unit was the name of the man who founded the company.

Things have changed.

Blame it on the computer business. Obsolenence is expected in mere months. Product problems are 'fixed' by "updates", sometimes at user cost. Marketers play fast and loose with specification claims. NOTHING is meant to last long enough to hand down to your kids.

More to the point of your original question, I think that it is a combination of marketers wanting to make things inexpensive enough to sell to the 'masses', lack of knowledge on the part of the current generation of designers as to what consitiutes solid performance, and a mentality of lack of personal responsibility for a product. Mix these with buzz words like 24 bit/96Khz "perfect sound forever" etc, and you end up with what you see today.

The 950, or ANY other digital component should NOT hiss from more than inches from the speaker at normal listening levels. It CAN be done. My digital audio workstation (24 bit) IS dead quiet even with my ear at the tweeter, when playing a track which only has dither at the 24th bit level, and that's with _any_ amount of DSP thrown in the loop. As to why the current generation of home theatre equipment can't do this, apparently at ANY cost is a mystery.

Maybe it's just that there aren't enough people out there who EXPECT solid performance, maybe they've all died off. Who knows?

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited November 06, 2002).]

I have NEVER seen anybody bad-mouthing you in these forums. You might be mis-intrepreting the differing views by other members of this forum as some kind of personal attack. This is NOT the case. Personally, I'm very glad to hear your opinions, and they are just as valid as mine, or any body else's.

Nope. My TA-E9000ES didn't hiss except with my ear up against the tweeters. The 950 hisses out to 2 - 4 ft.

I even tried the test where, if I turn the 950 off, what happens to the hiss. Amps only. Because amps *do* contribute some amount of hiss. In my case, ear up against the tweeter I can hear it. Otherwise not. Amps alone: no hiss. Amps + 950: hiss. There *is* an interaction between the 950 and my amps. Others have also commented on the fact that Acurus and the 950 is a bad combination (or, at least not the *best combo ). But the Sony and Acurus worked well together. So the issue is with the 950. Everything else is exactly the same.

I have 2 3 channel amps. (So for stereo 2 channel, I only need 1 amp on, but that drives my mains and the rear center, which is the worst in my case.) I've even started looking at 2 channel + 5 channel amps for a 7.1 system. I like the 950 that much. Then, just need the amp on for the mains. But that don't fix the problem. Outlaw will, someday. I have confidence!

Soundhound-I caused some confusion with my user name "JGB" from the office. Go back and read "I'm starting to understand this hiss thingy" thread and see some of the comments to JGB/Davis S re: "stay out of it"/essentially your full of crap responses in that one. It was when you and I debated your use of the soundmeter/and I apologized for doubting your posts. It was several other "mud" slingers who really were out there.