Scott-- See http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000531-3.html

[This message has been edited by steves (edited October 23, 2002).]

All I would like to say is my 950 is dead silent. Sounds great.

Compared to my old ACT3, well its no comparison. 950 all the way.

I've made several posts without any replies. Presumably this is because either my comments are not worth a reply, or "several posts" alone is not enough (I note that, despite the impressive total volume, the forum seems to be dominated by a relatively small number of individuals). Nonetheless I shall press on in the perhaps vain hope of contributing.

Facts: my 950 (received about 3 weeks ago after a comparatively short wait-list period) has, to my ears, the infamous "hissy-fit", yet I am still VERY satisfied with it. (On the negative side, I WILL say that based on this forum, the company seemingly has failed to solve the problem and seemingly went back into production anyway after a much-publicized halt). [digression: Could it be that the real fix is too expensive? Or that their Pac-Rim suppliers are too incapable??]

To answer those who may think I was "looking" for the hissy-fit: (1) OUTLAW FOLKS PLEASE READ! this forum, with its warts-and-all approach was key to my decision to try a mail-order unit that I could not audition - had I listened to the unit straight out of the box without warning, I without doubt would have returned it; (2) the hiss, compared with my other equipment, is very noticeable and rather objetionable for music-only but rarely noticeable within the signals from the typical digital movie track (low-fi compared with well-recorded music, higher average sound pressure levels, and less fequent isntances of "silence").

Why am I still satisfied? Frankly, low expectations to begin with. My background is music, not home theater. I and my family have only become interested in "home theater" with the shift from VCR to DVD. Being a business consultant by trade, and a technical analyst by avocation, I have spent about 18 months of fitfullly available free time researching my options. It became painfully clear to me, at an early stage of my investigation, that standards (IMHO both objective and subjective) in the home theater side of the home audio business lag woefully behind standards in the music-reproduction side. To my ears (and may I say here that I am a music lover, not an equipment lover), the highly rated home theater speakers systems such as Axiom, Paradigm and lower-rated systems such as Definitive Tech, are absolute junk when it comes to reproducing stereo music.

Given this opinion, when I decided to add the digital multi-speaker capability to our system for the purpose of watching movies, I knew that I would keep my actual music system (comprising the so-called "main" left and right front speakers, and a sub-woofer) intact and would only utilize the added movie-system capability for movie-watching. When we listen to music, the 950 is not even on; the path depends completely on my Crown-brand stereo pre-amp and bi-amplicification.

Just for curiosity, I tested the 950 on stereo music reproduction and found it (as expected) very lacking - but I'm not disappointed because this isn't the purpose for which I purchased it.

In terms of a home-theater multi-channel pre-amp, hissy-fit or not I still think the 950 is currently the best price/performance ratio on the market. Based on actual listening sessions at stores (and we all know those limitations) the Adcom is IMHO absolute junk (among other deficiencies, especially lack of component video) and still more expensive, the Rotel is competitive but no better and +$400, the Anthem and equivalent are mega-bucks and do not audibly out-perform on the fundamental home theater stuff. If cost is truly no object, buy MacIntosh and you might actually get a unit that performs well in both worlds, but I'm not in that league.

norman:
i enjoyed reading your post. one thing that is becoming a pet peeve of mine is this: you say your primary interest is music, yet i see no reference to sacd/dvd-a in your post.

i know of no stereo cd system that approaches sacd multichannel in sound. of course, like cds, you have differing mix quality and, being the new music format, there are a lot less choices in software. but...to own the 950 and not utilize the format, is a mistake, imo. i don't think outlaw set out to build the ultimate stereo cd preamp. i would just like to suggest trying sacd multichannel music through the 950. it's a music lover's paradise and, to me, the 950's strongest point.

i wouldn't mind hearing back from you on the subject. and, this forum is for anyone who has a thought....i wish more lurkers would jump in as i'm sure there are many who hesitate...that's everyone's loss.

I've made several posts without any replies. Presumably this is because either my comments are not worth a reply, or "several posts" alone is not enough Norman I’ve noticed in the forum a tendency for the regulars to get caught up in some issues. When they are I save questions and comments for another time, when they are not eating up their available posting time on one or two currently hot topics. Many times I surf and see and read insightful interesting posts but never comment as (most often) I’m not qualified or have no impute on that topic. Different reasons sometimes create that ‘can’t see the forest for the tree’ effect.. I’m sorry if that’s occurred on a regular basis. One reason I like this forum is the frequent ‘good tone’ where everyone is treated politely and as equals by other members, Outlaw seems calibrated towards a baseline attitude that whatever our backgrounds we are all here for the love of music in its many forms, even such as me, and I’m definitely not worthy.

I still think the 950 is currently the best price/performance ratio on the market I like that statement as I have always felt that Multi-channel home theater is where the 950 excels. I would also agree with Bossobass’s statement regarding the 950's strongest point bypass capabilities. This was a feature that excited me with my 950 purchase, and if you haven’t implemented it with SACD or DVD-A, I think you are not realizing the full potential of the 950. It’s performance for me in this area, has sparked a whole new personal interest in 2-channel which I had been lacking motivation in (speaker upgrade etc). Although I have to say I am leaning more and more to multi-channel for all my music. I would just wish that greater variety in the recordings were on market to feed this ‘new taste’ of mine.


[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited October 26, 2002).]

Bosso

I think I'm with Norman. My primary interest is music and I also don't have sacd/dvd-a either. Someday, I will. But I haven't even bought the extra cables yet... part of me is still hoping for that elusive sacd/dvd-a digitial interface standard to arrive. And I don't want to replace my good CD's yet, which give me so much pleasure, with higher higher sound quality sacd/dvd-a's (costing more than the CD's), when the new mixing standards are still so new. I understand there are some pretty awful microphone placements and frequency crossover arrangements in SOME sacd/dvd-a's where, for example, some even have full bandwith on the LFE channel. I hope my concerns make sense. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the early adopters out there. And someday I'll get with the sacd/dvd-a program too. But... not just yet.

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 26, 2002).]

As one of the small number of individuals, I'll chime in...



I thought that before I apologized for any rudeness on the part of the saloon, I'd see what posts of yours we had overlooked. Inevitably, some posts do not get replied to -- happens to everybody. Sometimes there is a larger debate in progress that overshadows it. Sometimes no one knows a good answer, and chooses to simply not reply rather than wasting bandwidth by saying "I don't know." I found only three posts by your user name -- this post, a long post here from June (which was only partially answered in a good post by Jed M and may have otherwise been overlooked as the debate in that thread looks to have been fairly active and fast-paced at the time) and a post from September in this thread that didn't really ask for a reply but got two anyway (Matthew Hill and I both responded to that one). I am sorry that you feel that your posts did not get any replies, but I don't think it's an entirely valid complaint.

Having gotten that out of my system, I will also say that your post is an interesting and very well-stated description of the experiences of a number of 950 owners. (Not all of course, as no two people will ever have exactly the same experience -- too many variables.) There are a number of users who have not experienced the hiss problem at all (I can say that with certainty because I'm one of them, and because if there weren't others like me then this forum would have been overwhelmed by complaints by now). There are also some users such as yourself who have validly encountered a hiss problem. Outlaw has worked hard on the issue already, and I doubt that they are ignoring it now after coming so far already.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Thanks for all the feedback. In re-reading my own post, I didn't strike quite the intended tone with the opening comments on not having received responses to earlier posts, and certainly did not mean to infer disrespect or the like.

I continue to work on learning the features of the 950; its a big step up in terms of complexity compared with my stereo-only pre-amp. With that set-up, I used a simple method from North Creek Music for filtering out low frequencies (at about 80 hertz) and sending them to a sub-woofer. Local Radio Shack is out of stock of their SPL meter, so I am currently setting levels strictly by ear and look forward to setting them objectively (it will also be interesting to see how close I was or wasn't, by ear alone).

The points on SACD are very interesting. In fact, I wonder if there should be a dedicated thread. Probably like many of you, I drop by one of the several high-end audiophile stores around here (Northern Virginia) periodically just to see what's new and to listen to the difference that a $100,000 sound system can make. I've heard a couple of marvelous SACDs and some truly awful ones. There obviously is a learning curve for the recording studios to go through, as with CDs in the early years. I haven't jumped into SACD yet for the following reasons:

(1) Am I correct in understanding that SACD is currently still mired in one of those stupid corporate battles over format (will they ever learn?)?
(2) Seems to be very little available that has been SACD-recorded - and seems to me that, unlike the CD, there is little or no ability to bring prior masters up to SACD by re-recording.
(3) And therefore, based on (1) and (2), I'm going to wait (a year? maybe 2?) for formats to be more nearly resolved, for the library to grow, and for prices to come down (cheapest unit I know of now is a Sony that is still about $900 - does anybody know differently?).

Regarding my preferences in music playback format, I truly believe that people (such as my son) who more or less grow up with the surround sound will come to prefer or even expect it for their music. For myself, I am an old fogey. Nearly all of the live performances I attend have the music coming strictly from the general area of the sound stage and for me, a traditional stereo set-up best re-creates this experience. I remain open to, but not yet convinced by, the SACD format.

Readers should bear in mind that much of my music listening is still on vinyl. I have always taken immaculate care of my vinyl, had a high-quality record player when due to economics it was the only quality component in my system. My better vinyl recordings, especially my small stock of treasured direct-to-disc, have a much more "live" sound than my best CDs because (in my opinion) the physics of the needle-based reproduction mean that the harmonics are fully captured. Although always tighter and more "accurate", the CDs still sound lifeless against a quality vinyl version of the same recording.

Pioneer has a unit out now that I've seen for under $500. I think it's the DV45A?? I could be wrong about that model number.

It plays anything, including DVD-a and SACD

fly guy

It is a format that has competition in the form of DVD-A.

I believe there are nearly 500 or so releases now available. Most of these ARE reissues. Popular examples are Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" on Columbia/Sony Music label(originally recorded in 1959) and the recent Rolling Stones reissues in Hybrid Multichannel (meaning they can be played on any CD or DVD player).

Waiting is always an option. Me, I'm an early adapter! The library is growing weekly. Do a search on the subject and you will find SACD players available for as little as $200.00. You mention you have a preference for vinyl. SACD gets really close to that sound with the quietness of a CD. You might want to go and spend some time with SACD at one of your local dealers (both in stereo and multichannel). It might make it hard for you to stay away!