kcb & sh: here are my questions:

1.) what happens to the signal of a stereo cd when played in 6 ch. bypass? (sound comes through all 6 channels and i have no clue how it's routed or what that does to the test)

2.) kcb, fortunately, you can get the signal to play through only L+R+sub if you are in stereo mode before engaging 6 ch bypass (though some view it as a glitch). which was the case when you tested for phase in 6 ch bypass?

3.) soundhound, did you also see the approx. 180 shift in phase that kcb observed with your test disc?

4.) kcb, did twaeking the phase on your sub essentially correct the phase problem?

i appreciate any input on this subject. i think it's a very important discovery and can lead to getting the best out of the 950 in all listening modes. if the sub is out of phase with the mains, the rs spl meter calib will result in a terribly bad calibration.

Hi soundhound,
I'd like to get a copy of your CD. Maybe we could ask for the Outlaws to host a file server for great resources like this. Alternatively, perhaps we could start a Yahoo egroup where files can be maintained.
TIA,
Jim

tofufot:

Santa Clara Jim actually got to me first, but I'm still waiting for his address to get to me so I can pop it in the mail (you out there JIm???). I intended to circulate one CD out there and have people make a CD copy of it and then pass it along to anybody else who wants to get a copy. I'd love to do a mass mailing, but I have to eat too! The CD is packed to the gills at 74 minutes, so it might not be very practical to host on a server, much less download, but I'm open to any ideas you have.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 05, 2002).]

Soundhound,

I don't want to post my address on the Net. How would you like me to get it to you?

Please advise.

Thank you,
Santa Clara Jim

Are you referring to acoustic phase of the sub to the mains, or electrical absolute phase? I didn't do the latter test of phase (really polarity) when I did noise measurements.

I don't use the LFE output of the 950: I have an analog crossover in-line with my main left and right front speakers at 60hZ which direct the bass to stereo subwoofers which sit next to their respective speakers. Used this way, I don't experience any problems regarding phase.

I'm a huge believer in stereo bass, since I've found that low frequencies ARE directional to some extent, especially with recordings of things like pipe organs or any recording which captures a lot of low frequency ambience. Having only one sub, it can be difficult to integrate into the system, and can interfere with the imaging of the other speakers, as some of you have found. I think this issue gets even more important in the playback of SACD and DVD-A. The mono LFE channel was designed for _cinema_ , not music.

OK, soundhound, take deep breath, step off soapbox, It'll be ok now.......


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 05, 2002).]

Soundhound,

Errr...
Nevermind.

Jim

Hi, Everyone.

Some people have asked me for the name of the dealer in the San Jose, California area that made Anthem/Outlaw head-to-head possible.

Darren at "Paradise Audio and Video"

http://www.paradise-sound.com/

in Saratoga, California was kind enough to offer assistance.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

BoB- Here goes...

1.) what happens to the signal of a stereo cd when played in 6 ch. bypass? (sound comes through all 6 channels and i have no clue how it's routed or what that does to the test)

>> see #2

2.) kcb, fortunately, you can get the signal to play through only L+R+sub if you are in stereo mode before engaging 6 ch bypass (though some view it as a glitch). which was the case when you tested for phase in 6 ch bypass?

>> There are 3 ways I measured for phase. i) coax digital. ii) 2 channel analog input (DVD). iii) the front 2 channels for the 5.1 analog inputs. The phase for i & ii was the same. But the phase for iii was ~180 deg off from i & ii.

4.) kcb, did twaeking the phase on your sub essentially correct the phase problem?

>> No. I can get *either* the coax digital/2 channel analog inputs, *or* the 5.1 analog input the be in phase at one time. For now, I know what the knob should be set to on the back of my sub, so I just switch it for whatever source I'm listening to. BTW, it does make sense that the coax digital phase is exactly the same as 2 channel analog. ... Because the 2 channel analog source is getting A-to-D'ed, then time delayed and bass managed, then D-to-A'ed. The coax input is exactly the same (it looks like) except for the 1st A-to-D conversion.


When I get more time, I want to try a "middle" setting and do measurements at the listening position to see if I can't get a happy compromise between the 2 phase settings on my sub. Also, just for info, between the 2 phase settings (coax digital/2 channel analog in phase, 5.1 analog out of phase vs coax digital/2 channel analog out, 5.1 analog in), the sound level value difference was about 5 dB. Pure test tone at the crossover setting.

Also, BTW, the new version of Anthem software includes a sub polarity setting as well as a variable sub phase setting in increments of 5 Hz (I think). But I believe that the Anthem does *all* bass management digitally, so that pre/pro presumably wouldn't have the same problem as the 950.

My two cents on this issue:

In my search for a pre-pro/amp combo for music and movies, I have owned the following (used with DH Labs BL-1 Interconnects, DH Labs T-14 speaker cable, Axiom Audio 80ti towers, VP-150 CC, M3ti bookshelf surrounds, Hsu Research VTF-2 sub):

Anthem AVM20 (startling dynamic range, sterile 2-channel, paired with Sherbourn 5/1500A)

Lexicon DC-1 (great effects steering, electronic 2-channel, paired with Outlaw 750)

Aragon Soundstage (crisp and dynamic, very nice 2-channel, paired with Sherbourn 5/1500A)

Acurus ACT-3 (surprisingly good dynamics, slight "whispery" quality, good 2-channel, paired with Sherbourn 5/1500A)

EAD Ovation Plus (decent dynamics, outstanding 2-channel, paired with EAD Powermaster 1000)

Bryston SP-1 (quietest of all, let every detail and nuance come through, excellent steering and dynamics, painfully revealing 2-channel induced "ear burn", paired with EAD Powermaster 1000, best for HT alone)

Sunfire TGII (terrific dynamics, great 2-channel, paired with EAD Powermaster 1000, the best for both disciplines that I found)

Then I heard a Jolida SJ202 integrated tube amp, and fell in love. I mainly listen to female vocals, and it's just magic.

And now, after a recent financial downturn, I've picked up a 950/750 setup. The Jolida has freed me from needing a pre-pro/amp combo that does music well, making the Outlaw combo a nice fit for now.

Yes, the Anthem was better for HT, with improved dynamics and clarity, but the difference is minor. The Outlaw would get an 8 to the Anthem's 9, which doesn't justify the price difference in my book.

When fortune smiles on me again, I will get another Bryston SP-1 and another Powermaster 1000, set them down next to the Jolida and be in heaven.

But in the meantime, this Outlaw setup is doing me and my empty wallet serious justice.

Ah, yes: toobs GOOD.....solid state BAAAD...........