Fellow Outlaws:

I am writing after a great deal of reflection. I figure that most of us will never get the chance to do a side-by-side comparison of the Outlaw gear against the Anthem. I hope this information is helpful. If you want to cut to the chase, please read on the last few paragraphs. Finally, describing sound quality is like describing the color blue!. I will do my best but it’s very subjective and hard to convey. On to the shootout.

Tonight, I took my Outlaw 950 and 770 to a local audio dealer to do a head-to-head shootout against the Anthem AVM20 and MCA-50.

A little background...

I had been a waitlist member since January 20th. As such, I had had a long time to build my excitement about the 950/770 value/performance proposition. I had participated in the Forums and extolled Outlaw's virtues to my friends. I had been very patient despite a great deal of exasperation. When Outlaw finally started shipping product again, I was one of the first on the list.

When I finally received the 950/770, it was Christmas all over again. I gleefully opened the boxes and set about hooking up the equipment. I used decent interconnects and speaker cables (Monster) as well as a couple of homemade CAT5 speaker cables for my two fronts.

After using my Radio Shack sound meter and a tape measure to configure my system. I proceeded to put the Outlaw gear through its paces. I started with the Matrix lobby and helicopter scenes, and followed that with the mid-air collision scene from Fight Club (a good scene due to its sudden, sustained peak and sudden drop to near silence.) Finally, I watched Amelie, for its subtlety and nuance. In 5:1, the movies sounded okay. I found that the Outlaw gear lacked a certain clarity and coherence. I wasn’t sure of my ears but I gave it the benefit of the doubt.

I then tried a couple of CDs. First, Diana Krall. Generally, the audio quality of her recordings is very good. She usually is a part of a quartet or trio. As a result, the soundstage has the potential to present very defined placement of instruments and distinct clarity. I listened in both bypass and 5-stereo. I both cases, I was very disappointed. The sound was flat and mushy and the soundstage was very muddled. Listening to an Alana Davis CD (more rock pop), I still didn’t find the clarity I had expected. Finally, I put on a Colin Hay CD. Simple acoustic music. Again, not happy.

I thought, “Okay. After all this time, maybe I have become hyper-critical (al la the discussion of hiss, IMHO.) I need to have a basis for comparison. So I called an Anthem dealer in Silicon Valley and asked if I could bring in the Outlaw gear for a shoot-off. He was gracious enough to agree.

I arrived at the dealer, and carried in my 90+ pound 770 and the 950. First we listened to the Anthem gear. Just as an aside, the Anthem had not been optimized for either the speakers or their placement in the room. Diana Krall came first. The imagining and soundstage was clear and real. She sounded like she was in the room. I could close my eye and place both her piano and the microphone. Every nuance of the drummer’s work on the cymbals and snare was immediately apparent (I’m a drummer, by the way.) When we put on Colin Hay’s CD, I could hear him fingering the strings of his guitar. I could also place him in the recording space.

Okay, I though, the Anthem sounds good in two channel music. What about Dolby 5:1. As a movie test, we placed Shrek in the DVD player. We chose the dragon scene (rescue the princess). The sound was clear and crisp, with excellent separation. I was impressed.

The Anthem now had me worried. I had been waiting for the Outlaw gear so long that I didn’t want it to compare unfavorably. But my ears don’t lie…

On to the Outlaw test.

I hooked the Outlaw 950 up using the same cables, amplifier, speakers and source components. We started the testing with the same scene from Shrek. The 950 did not compare! The soundstage was mushy and incoherent. The highs were flat and the lows were muddy. I expected the 950 to shine in a head-to-head movie test. It didn’t.

On to music… I used the same Diana Krall CD as a sample. The Outlaw sounded flat and lifeless. The cymbals were mushy and the soundstage was incoherent. Again, no comparison to the Anthem.

I then hooked up the 950 with the 770 just to make sure that there wasn’t a mismatch of some kind between components. It actually got worse.

Someone I don’t know heard the two demos as well. He agreed that the Outlaw gear simply didn’t compare. It was unanimous. We all heard the difference

The Results?

Well, it is with a very heavy heart that I tell you that I am returning the Outlaw gear tomorrow. The Anthem AVM20 and MCA 50 combination buried the Outlaw 950/770 pair with neither last rites nor a funeral. I desperately wanted to believe that Outlaw was the way to go. But, after this experience, the old axiom still applies:

You get what you pay for!

The Anthem gear combination costs twice as much. If you have the wherewithal, buy the Anthem. You will not regret it!

Regretfully (soon to be a former Outlaw),
Santa Clara Jim


[This message has been edited by santaclarajim (edited October 03, 2002).]

You say before you went to the dealer to listen to the Anthem, you found the Outlaw gear lacked a certain clarity and coherence.

How did your 950 compare to whatever you were listening before you bought your 950?

Will,

That's a good question. My original amplifier is a 1976 Harmon Kardon (45W) paired with a Denon CD player.

I had listened to many CDs through that combo. The Diana Krall CD is one of my favorites so I figured it would be a good basis for comparison. The speakers (JBL S312s) were the same ones that I paired with the Outlaw. The HK sounded much warmer and the soundstage was also more apparent.

I didn't think to add the original system components to my post. I didn't want to list equipment. That's not my real interest. As a musician, I really try to focus on the sound. I thought the Outlaw would be a real step up. I was wrong.

The Anthem just sounds better.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

P.S. I haven't bought the Anthem combo yet. I've got to come to terms with the purchase price first. Know what I mean?



[This message has been edited by santaclarajim (edited October 03, 2002).]

Geez, Jim, you mean to tell me the dealer actually perferred his equipment over something he doesn't sell? What's this world coming to? By the way, if you are really paying only 2x as much for the Anthem stuff over the Outlaw- that might be a real deal!

Steve,

The dealer was actually pretty cool. Unfortunately, customers and staff alike reached the same conclusion.

As for the price, $5,000 is STILL $5,000. It's just hard to see it as a bargain. Still, you're probably right.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

Jim:

Your comparason was interesting. When I was at Will's house, I immedately noticed the Outlaw's 'sonic signature', even though I was not listening for it, nor expecting to hear one. I am on the more objective side of the fence, but when I hear a difference, I hear one, and that's that. Please do keep us posted on your future experiences with the Anthem (assuming your wife doesn't kick you out of the house for spending all that money!) In that case you can always stay here, but bring the Anthem!!!

Yes, let's see if we can figure out why on your old HK, the soundstage was more apparent than on the Outlaw 950.

In your old set up, when you listened to the Diana Krall CD, was it going through any pre/pro at all?

Will,

There was no pre/pro in my old setup. The Denon CD player fed directly into the intergated pre-amp/amplifier. Analog input in for both configurations. Same cables, as well. I used the Denon's DAC to decode the CD.

I tried the 950 in bypass and processor mode. It didn't do justice to the recording.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

Jim,

Do you remember the name of the HK integrated pre-amp/amplifier? Also do you still have it? And lastly, did you use a subwoofer setting when you played Diana Krall through your HK integrated pre-amp/amp, and did you use a subwoofer when you played Diana Krall in your 950, using the 950's bypass mode?

Will,

The HK is a model A402. Yes, I still have it. As for using a sub with it, ummm...it's so old, it doesn't even know what a subwoofer is.

I listened to Diana Krall through the 950 with and without the subwoofer. I would like to say that I left the sub off intentionally. However, I forgot to press the power switch for the first few days. Oops!

I tried the CD in both processor and bypass modes through the 950

Hope that helps.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

i've read posts favorably comparing an hk 520, sherwood 6070, pioneer whatever, etc, to the 950, all the while my headache mounting. i've read complaints aplenty concerning the 950's remote, lame 5.1 setup, unacceptable hiss, double bass, switching from stereo to 6 ch. bypass, at this point suffering a migraine extraordinare.

now, it's the anthem for twice as much money (though i really would like to know who is selling one, with upgrade, for $1850, including sales tax). it sounded better? somebody call mike wallace.

the avm20 is a great piece of hardware. but, the 950 incoherent, mushy, flat, lifeless, very muddled soundstage???

my pain completely left me when suddenly i realized the answer!!!!!!!!...my 950 is a freak. c'mon, Scott, fess up....mine is modded, hot-rodded, juiced......SOMETHING.

when i finished reading the post above, i panicked, ran into my listening room, popped in spyro gyra "in modern times" multichannel sacd. cut #4. cranked it. closed my eyes.....
ahhhhhhhhhhh. crystal clear coherence. i could follow scott ambush's fingers on that azola fretless as they slid down to drop me with the deepest, smoothest low note, while the tiny percussion symphony danced through the widest soundstage i've ever heard in a room, behind, in front, overhead, swimming, floating through lush reverb and subtle keyboard triggered effects, all introducing the sax (an instrument i normally am annoyed by) that demanded i realize precisely where it is positioned and that the melody belonged to it.

auditioning the 950 with a stereo cd and a dd soundtrack is like test driving an s series mercedes by coasting down your driveway with the engine off.

yes...the anthem is a step up, but it ain't no $1500 step. not to me. and certainly not to my obviously (what else would explain it) super-charged, custom modified, 950.

oh, and yes...i HAVE listened to rotel, lex, krell, tag, b&k, onkyo, denon, marantz, hk, pioneer, yamaha, sony and macintosh, with extra cheese.

Santa Clara Jim,

OK, your integrated amp is a 1976 model.

Is the Denon CD player you are using to play Diana Krall also quite old? If you are using analog interconnects, are they real old cables? Did you try connecting the CD player to your 950 using not the analog interconnects, like you have to with the 1976 model integrated amp, but with a digital (COAX or OPTICAL) interconnect?

I would be frankly, quite surprised if your 26 year old electronic amp has a better soundstage than your 950. There's probably a good explanation for what you're hearing. Let's not give up.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 03, 2002).]

Will,

The CD player is about 6 years old. Yes, it does use analog interconnects. Yes, it sounds better with the HK and the Anthem.

I am not giving up. I would rather keep the Outlaw gear. It's a better value. If you can find a explanation for the difference, I would sincerely welcome it. I would rather save the money.

Here's what I know.

I have heard the 950 and the Anthem with the same interconnects and the same CD. The Anthem sounded better.

I have heard the Outlaw and the HK using the same player and the same interconnects. The HK sounded better. Both used analog interconnects. Both used the CD player's processor.

The speakers were set to both large and small. I tried the crossovers at three different settings. The 950 was in processor and bypass mode. The 950 should have little audible effect in bypass mode, right?

At the store, the 950 and the Anthem used a very high-end CD player with an Coaxial digital interconnect. The Anthem sounded better.

is there a setting I should have tweak on the 950?

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

Bosso,

The twice the price referred to $5000 for the AVM20/MCA-50 combo.

As for my observations, I have absolutely no agenda. It's just what I heard.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

Santa Clara Jim,

I won't disagree if you prefer the Anthem AVM20/MCA-50 to the Outlaw 950/770. But I'm intrigued that you prefer a 26 year old budget integrated amp to the Outlaw 950/770. My guess is something is set up wrong. If you were local, I'd invite you over so you can hear what a well set up Outlaw rig is capable of sounding like. Perhaps someone local to you in Santa Clara will invite you over to hear what their 950 is capable of. Don't go to some store, go to somebody's home, who has their 950 set up right.

One thing that may be hurting the soundstage when you use your 950 are your speakers and your speaker positions. I'm talking about your main (left and right only) speakers. If your 1976 integrated amp has a warm mushy sound compared to the 950, your speakers may need to be repositioned so they sound good with your 950/770.

Also, I have run across some really lousy CD players (especially CD changers) and some really lousy analog cables in my day, and the 950 will reproduce everything upstream, including whatever's not quite right upstream. A lesser pre amp might not notice the garbage but with the 950, it's garbage in - garbage out magnified.

The 950 has plenty of faults. I will be the first to point them out. Nevertheless, the 950/770 combo should present a far better more accurate and realistic sound stage than your 26 year old integrated amp. The 950 is probably a little crisper than your warm sounding integrated amp however.

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 03, 2002).]

Jim:
For all it's worth, I have a vacuum tube preamp in line with my front left and right speakers, and I have the analog output of my Sony CD player connected directly to one of the line inputs of this preamp. The 950 is connected to another line input of the preamp, and this way I can switch back and forth at will to compare a 'pure' analog path from the CD and the output from the 950 in it's various modes. I have listened to many CDs with this setup, and the result is that I cannot tell one bit of difference between the 950 (in any stereo mode) and the direct connection. As Will suggests, there might be some other factor in the bad sound from your 950. You might try duplicating my setup using your existing HK preamp and switching back and forth through two of it's inputs; maybe you might uncover something that is causing the bad sound in your 950.

Jim: i appreciate the heads up, but i realized that you have no agenda. i don't doubt your ears. i only countered your (and other's) post with what I hear. i meant to suggest, like the others here, that there is certainly a problem with your 950 and/or setup. no preamp i've heard "buries" the 950.

Given that there are still unresolved issues with regard to hiss with some units demonstrating more than others, perhaps we have QC issue here. I would hope that there would be very little variation between samples, but this appears to NOT be the case with the 950.

All,

The cables that were used were Audio Quest. I believe that the CD player was Music Fidelity. The speakers were Dynaudio.

I can't imagine that the cables were the cause of the problem. If so, why would I hear similar characteristics both at home and at the store. Different cables, different CD players, different DVD players, different speakers.

As I have said before, I would still prefer to keep the Outlaw gear. If it sounds as good, it would be a screaming value.

If someone can show me a misconfiguration on my part, I would:

a)welcome it.
b)eat large helpings of crow.
c)merrily reinstall my Outlaw gear.

I am in the Santa Clara, California, near San Jose. Anyone interested in helping me figuring this thing out? Your help would be appreciated.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim



[This message has been edited by santaclarajim (edited October 03, 2002).]

What speakers were you using in this shootout?

Dan

Dan,

Dynaudio speakers were used. Please see the previous post.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

Jim,

While there are sonic differences between the Anthem AVM20 and the Outlaw 950 (and the Outlaw 950 may have some QA problems), the differences between the AVM20 and the Outlaw 950 (or for that matter, differences within the Outlaw 950 due to QA problems), should pale in comparison to the sonic differences between the 950 and your 26 year old solid state integrated amplifier.

I am reasonably sure that if you brought home an Anthem and put it in your system, like you did with your 950, you would hear something very close to what you heard with the 950/770 in your system, rather than what you heard with your 26 year old integrated amp in your system.

As I mentioned previously, speaker placement may have to change in order to get a good soundstage when switching from your 26 year old integrated amp to a modern pre/pro. Also if you have a poor CD player or cables, the 950 could reveal problems not revealed with the 26 year old integrated amp.

Lastly, it is possible that you may have a lousy 950 and a replacement may solve the problem you hear.



I hope someone comes forward in your area, so that you can hear what a properly set up 950 can sound like. If you ever are in the Los Angeles area, I would be pleased to let you hear my set up.

Will

In another thread, I measured Will's and my 950 for noise, using a lab AC db meter. The results varied more than I expected from his to mine. That alone points to some issue of a QC nature, and if I were asked to point a finger at the cause, my best guess would be unacceptable variation in some ICs noise spec.

Why is the age of the amp important? It gets mentioned very often, so I'm asking?

It's more the age of the pre/amp. He has an integrated amp which is a combination amp and pre/amp. It's like a receiver but without the tuner. It was made a long time ago, before they were designed for subwoofers, etc.

I was alive then......wow, you make me feel OLD...

Soundhound,

I was around, too. I know how you feel.

As for the quality of the old amp, the old HKs seem to sound quite warm and full.

Just my opinion. I had hoped that the Outlaw 950/770 would sound better.

regards,
Santa Clara Jim

If the new Anthem sounds closer to your 26 year old integrated than the 950, something's probably seriously wrong.

I hope you have the chance someday, to hear a properly set up 950, in someone's home.

I think if you got the Anthem combo and hooked it into your system the same way you hooked the 950/770, you'd hear practically the same thing you heard with the 950/770 in your system. They should sound a little different, but not that different. Not compared to the difference between either of them, and your 26 year old integrated amp. At least, that's what I would expect. Unless you have a particularly bad 950 on your hands (and they do have QA problems).

Good luck!

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 03, 2002).]

Request a swap if you're unhappy with the present audio quality of the 950.

If your direct analog 2-channel input sounds bad on the 950, you must have something seriously wrong with the 950.

So if the old integrated amp is used on an analog stereo source (a CD player for instance) with a pair of capable speakers, and the 950/770 used the same way, what huge techological leap would obsolete the integrated amp?

I'm still scratching my head on this one, sorry.

the first thing that crossed my mind in the comparison, is that (from memory, correct me if i'm wrong) the anthem has internal phase and timing adjustments. this would definitely lead to a description of flat and incoherent if the anthem was in phase with the speakers and the 950 was not. (see kcb's thread 'the 950 and 5.1 vs analog/coax bass management and phase'). if so, and kcb's findings on the subject are correct, simply playing a dvd-a or sacd disc could have revealed a marked difference. you might borrow a sacd player and without touching anything else in your setup, see what you hear.

this leads to the second thought i have and alluded to in my 1st post above: a cd is not a good test of the 950's dacs and doesn't serve to isolate any specific problem. i would try all the formats (once any possible phase and timing questions are settled), starting with eagles "hell freezes over", then a dts cd like steely dan's "gaucho", then dts-es cd "studio voodoo" or, don henly's "end of innocence". of course, as i stated earlier, dvd-a/sacd should be auditioned to test 5.1 bypass.

it's very coincidental to me that the only speakers you've heard so far are the s312s and dynaudios. i recently gave my custom built dynaudio 3 ways to a family member, as i'm building new speakers. in the meanwhile, i am using 4 s312s. i know that when calibrating the system, the dyns had to be 4db hotter as they are much less efficient than the jbls. don't get me wrong, they sound superb, they just need more juice to perform. the jbl s312s, i find, are excellent speakers for the money. a tad harsh in the upper mids, but very detailed and certainly not at all muddled or mushy. this is one reason i think there is a problem somewhere in your setup.

there may well have been a whole other problem or set of problems in the comparison which coincidentally seemed to verify poor performance at home.

try the suggestions. believe me, the 950 is a keeper. my agenda is that you enjoy it as much as i am (and save a small boatload of dough in the process). try all possible solutions, up to and including exchanging your 950 for another one. remember...these new prepros ain't our old stereo preamps. they are extremely complex and this one warrants a bit of detective work before sending it back. just my thoughts.

Hi Charlie,

I can't tell you what's changed in analog preamplifier audio technology in the last 26 years. I owned a Pioneer in the early 80's and thought it sounded fine at the time. But it sounded lousy compared to the Harmon Kardon I bought a few years later. Later, that Harmon Kardon in turn sounded lousy compared to the Sony I got in the 90's. And that sounded lousy compared to the 950.

Each improvement was to me, significant. Of course I also got newer interconnects over the years as well. I think radio shack cables today are much better than some of the "premium" cables from fifteen years ago, believe it or not. A few years ago, I replaced my old "premium" cables with newer RatShack cables since they sound so much better.

EDIT: This is only comparing raw stereo, not multi-channel which has also significantly improved over the years.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 04, 2002).]

I would submit that the improvements you observed might not be only due to technological advancements, and would further submit that HK has a long track record of pretty decent product.

I'm also not infering no improvement has been made, just thinking in the specific case cited by the OP (stereo CD via analog) age might not be the most significant, or even very significant, factor.

Definitely check to see if the speakers are hooked up in phase, that would be responsible for a bad sounding experience.

Charlie,

I agree. I used an HK pre-amplifier in the 1980's. At the time, I thought it was awesome!

I still have that HK pre-amplifier from the 1980's. I don't know where you live but you are welcome to drop by if you'd like to hear it sometime, and compare how it sounds to my 950, using a stereo CD via analog.

I think there's no comparison between the two, but you are certainly welcome to come over, hear them yourself, and draw your own conclusion.

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 03, 2002).]

It's not worth wasting a lot of time or effort on to me. Some folks have older equipment and swear it sounds plenty good. I see no reason to doubt them.

I just don't think a single example of an older device that sounds worse than a new device to a single person is enough to condemn an entire decade of products.

If you think so you're certainly entitled. Enjoy!

Charlie,


I remember liking my solid state pre/amp from the 1980's a lot. If I'd never heard a newer pre/amp, I might be thrilled with it to this day!

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 03, 2002).]

Patman,

I wish the speaker phasing were it. I heard the difference with both my speakers and the shops. Red goes to Red...Black Goes to Black.

regards,
Santa Clara Jim


[This message has been edited by santaclarajim (edited October 03, 2002).]

Santa Clara Jim has an older item of equipment he seems to hold in some regard. I wouldn't dismiss his opinion out of hand based on the vintage of the equipment alone. But that's just me. And that's really all I have to say about it I guess - I was just trying to lead you to the logical conclusion, but you either don't want to go there or can't see it. Doesn't matter. Have a good one.

I'll try to give santaclarajim some help here (we need a little more starter fluid).

I had a pre - fix 950, a pre V2 AVM20, and a Denon 3200 in my system for about a month.

First, I think bossobass is right, the AVM doesn't "bury" the 950, anymore than the 950 "buries" the Denon.

That said, the 950 is flat and lifeless in two channel via DAC or analog. I did not notice imaging or soundstage problems. In fact, I really liked the imaging compare to the AVM/Dennon. I also thought the bass on the 950 was really well articulated, both by test CD and music. I would characterize the AVM (and Denon, if anybody cares) as more "furry'.

As far as 5.1/6.1, I really had problems with the stability of the image, and a lack of "space" with the 950. The 950 really seemed to collapse/jump front to back. This is obviously dependent on software (pre/pro and DVD). The best example is the 5th element at the beginning scene with the president. The hall is created perfectly by the AVM and Denon as a large space. The 950 was unable to produce this effect. Also, in that scene when the speaker walks forward, his voice pans from back to front smoothly on the AVM/Dennon. On the 950 it just jumps. My speaker setup was built around the Denon, maybe moving stuff around or some judicious sound treatments might straighten this out. (The $$ you save would buy a pretty good room upgrade.)

On the upside, I found the 950 had a lot of resolution, and I did not find it lacking in low or high end (other than reproducing ambience). I thought at both frequency extremes it sounded really good (analytical).

If the major ergonometric flaws and lack of an easy software upgrade are not a factor in your installation, the 950 is definitely worth $75 shipping to try.

I have to throw my 2 cents in. I had my pre red dot 950. I was a lucky one who had a pretty close to perfect (read: no hiss) 950 back in April.

Here was one of my biggest problems.... jm99, you hit it right on the head.


Exactly what As far as 5.1/6.1, I really had problems with the stability of the image, and a lack of "space" with the 950. The 950 really seemed to collapse/jump front to back. This is obviously dependent on software (pre/pro and DVD). The best example is the 5th element at the beginning scene with the president. The hall is created perfectly by the AVM and Denon as a large space. The 950 was unable to produce this effect. Also, in that scene when the speaker walks forward, his voice pans from back to front smoothly on the AVM/Dennon. On the 950 it just jumps.

When I did my comparison to the 1066, which I now own, was the 950's jumpiness from front to back pans especially! Side to side seemed OK to me...

One thing I'd compliment about the 950... Its full of umph.. (at least the one I had) It has great bass. Very pronounced and full.. Quite good.

My big gripe besides the jumpy pan was the ergonomics as well.... Thats the other reason why I sent it back.

Jeff

Interesting. I was starting to suspect the Cirrus chipset was maybe not up to par, but since the Rotel IIRC has the same chipset I guess that theory is no good.

Most of the other competition is based on the DigitalDNA stuff I think.

The 950 definitely has a cool, "analytical" presentation to it. And if Santa Clara Jim's previous setup was geared to a warmer component like the HK, I can see where he might be disappointed with the overall sound. IMO the warmth has to come from somewhere (speakers, Amp, source, etc).

I do agree that while the 950 sounds accurate to me, it isn't terribly revealing of details. And I also agree that even though my speakers have been calibrated, there isn't a great sense of coherence as found in higher end processors.

But don't forget that the Anthem is also considered a major bargain in its price range so you are taking a real step up.

All that said, though, I'm very pleased with how the 950 sounds for movies. The sense of dynamics, timbral realism, and just all round realistic sound of the unit is incredible for the price. But you do need good surrounding equipment for it to shine.

Yes, I wish I was happier with it for 2 channel, but for the price what does for Home Theater is simply amazing. And there are always ways to integrate a 2 channel amp for the best of both worlds.

But alas, Santa Clara Jim, you've heard something that sounds dramatically better to you in your system, and once that happens, there's no turning back my friend. Now don't go doing anything foolish like listening to the new TAG or THETA units. Remember the kids tuition, and the new furniture your wife's been hinting about..

I'm wondering about the 'next tier' of pre/pros, the Ref50 (?) Sunfire TG3, anthem AVM20.

Any comments or pointers to how these stack up? I'm most curious about TG3 vs AVM20.

He has not heard the Anthem in his sytem, only at the Anthem store. In the Anthem store he liked the Anthem better than his 950 (although he wasn't that familiar with the 950). In his home, he says the 26 year old HK solid state integrated amp has a better soundstage than his 950. I'd be curious how the Anthem would sound in his home. The apples-to-apples comparison is as I understand it, using just stereo and using just analog. Because, that's how 26 year old solid state integrated amplifiers work.

I'd also be curious how he'd like a 950 that's set up right, in someone's home. He hasn't had the chance to hear that yet.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 03, 2002).]

Will,

I compared the Anthem in digital mode with both CD and DVD. I am quite familiar with the 950. I have delved fairly deeply into configuration including crossover points, distance settings, digital settings, source selection, trim setting, tone settings, etc.

The differences I heard were head-to-head, same speakers, same sources. The Anthem sounded substantially better. Please reread the original post and the thread.

It's not about analog and old amplifiers. It's about head-to-head digital decoding and audio performance.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

Jim,

If you prefer the Anthem to the Outlaw, I have no disagreement. Please reread my posts.

Regards,

Will

Will,

I'm sorry if I got snippy. My apologies. I am just frustrated by what I heard last night. I want to believe that it was a fair test but, after all this discussion, I am starting to wonder if I misconfigured something. I wish you could have been there. The difference was quite clear. I posted my honest assessment.

If someone can show me what I did wrong, I would gladly reconsider my position.

After all this discussions about speaker phasing and old amplifiers, I am not sure what to think anymore. I can say the old HK does sound better than the 950 to my ears.

With reference to the possibility of having received a bad unit, how does one determine that? It is very subjective.

I reiterate my invitation to anyone in the SF Bay Area to stop by and tell me if I have done something wrong. I have my doubts, but a second pair of eyes is rarely a bad thing.

Again, please accept my apology. I am just very diappointed.

regards,
Santa Clara Jim

[This message has been edited by santaclarajim (edited October 03, 2002).]

Since none of us was there, how do you propose we show you what you did wrong?

Jim,

Apologies accepted. I know it's very frustrating. I very much wish someone in the SF Bay Area would stop by and help you out.

Until that happens, I'd try a few easy steps to try to improve the soundstage of your 950 in stereo, without a subwoofer: (1) try re-arranging and moving your main speakers around, farther or nearer from the wall, etc., (2) use the digital connection from the CD player to the 950 since your CD player is many years old, the D/A inside your 950 should be quite a bit better than the D/A in your CD player.


You may have a bad unit, but chances are slim that the 950 would turn on and work but be sonically so bad that your HK would sound better.

Will

I don't really have time to participate on any of the online forums lately. Work and family issues have really hammered me for the past couple of months. What little "free" time I've had has been dedicated to working around my new house (it *IS* different than renting ) or being with friends. Sitting in front of the computer has taken a very distant back seat. And I don't expect it to change for another month at least. Regardless, a friend remembered that I'd gone over to a local HTF members house to A/B a 950 with an Anthem back when the first ones shipped this past spring. So he called and told me about this thread.

The gentleman had bought the Anthem after getting tired of waiting for the 950, but he never cancelled his waiting spot. When he was told it was his turn, he accepted it with the intention of selling it locally. However, since he ended up with both the 950 & Anthem, he offered to hold a little comparision session for any local HTFers. I attended. He had a set of Paradigm Studio 100's and some higher-end boutique speaker cables. His interconnects were a complete package of the Outlaw cables. The amp was the matching 5 channel Anthem amp. We played music from a collection of CD's, SACD's and some scenes from several DVD's. The comparision lasted about 5 hours if I recall correctly. Neither he nor I were able to detect an *obvious* difference in sound. No, it was not a blind comparison. His girlfriend did claim to be able to hear a difference, but wasn't able to describe it while I was still there. He kept the Anthem and sold the 950, primarily due to features ... the Anthem has Balanced connectors which he desperately wanted for future installation in the new home he was planning. It also had the ability to customize the display lables and a few other details that he prefered. But in terms of sound, in a real persons living room ... neither of us could honestly say we truely heard a difference in sound. For me, not needing/wanting the features that he found so compelling, the 950 was all I had hoped.

Jim, I am *not* saying you're wrong. You'll note that this guy's girlfriend claimed to be able to hear a difference. But I do have to wonder, since I've heard both pre/pro's A/B'd, whether there might not be something wrong with the 950 you had? I will say, I'm quite sure you'll be very happy with the Anthem - it looks nice (altho I prefer a dark finish to the light color this other gentleman had), it sounds good and it has a ton of features. It also costs a lot more than the 950. Since I had no need for the Anthems features that that extra cost gets you, and since they sounded so much alike, I found that the 950 was all I had hoped for. When I finally received mine a month or so later ... I was just as happy as I expected. I also seem to have been extra lucky ... I seem to have a system that doesn't demonstrate the verious hiss/noise concerns that others have had. {shrug}

Oh well. Just another 1/2 cents worth of info. G'night. I'll be back ... don't know when, but I will.


------------------
pat----

email: pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

let's separate the two situations.

1. head to head at the dealer's showroom:
i have to view this dealer's accommodation realistically. bear with me. say i am the dealer. i'm there to sell anthems, not to see if a competitor sounds as good or better. i just might connect black to red and red to black and compensate for that in the anthem's setup menu so that ANY other pre in the same system would sound flat. given that, i don't think you should give much thought to the "shootout". psklenar's post is more viable.

2. at home: i agree with will 100%. there are many reasons why a quarter century old integrated amp is no comparison to the 950/770, much less better in any way...period. past break-in, if there is such a thing, no electronic equipment gets better with age.

you mentioned 2 jbl s312s. what are the other speakers in your system?
you mentioned the denon cd player. what dvd player do you have?
i have to say this...i don't listen to cds. it's a terrible format that is long overdue to be replaced. if i mainly listened to cds, i would not have bought a 950 prepro. so, i can't help much in that area, regarding the 950 vs. anything else. i regard soundhound to be the go-to guy there (read his post above). i know eq is a dirty word to cd purist fans, but maybe it would help you acheive the sound you are used to hearing with cds. maybe sound hound can help here, too.

will also is correct about the revealing nature of the 950 possibly requiring some upgrade of cabling/power conditioning...and i definitely agree with the speaker placement comment. in 6 channel bypass with sacd multichannel, very seemingly small tweaks in my speaker placement/height made dramatic changes.

i say list all equipment and let us all suggest ac/cable/eq/system config tweaks, if you don't mind our ramblings. my opinion is, saving $2500 buys a lot of these upgrades and you'll buy them anyway eventually, regardless of what pre you end up with.

Quick thought this morning before I head to work...

I think someone else may have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but one very revealing test might be to demo the AVM20 (either the pre/pro alone or it and whatever Anthem amp was used at the dealer) at home. That would eliminate any possible "funny business" as pointed out by bossobass and would put the comparison where it counts most -- in your home, with your gear. Since your plan is to either keep the 950 (if you can get it sounding the way you want it) or buy an AVM20, the Anthem dealer ought to be more than happy to let you try it at home for a few days. If the old integrated amp still sounds best, then both pre/pros are likely more revealing than you are used to. If the AVM20 still wipes the floor with the 950, you might check with Outlaw about a 950 swap (since some past comparisons like the one psklenar mentioned suggest that there should not be that pronounced a sonic difference between the two, unless perhaps something is wrong with the 950) before throwing in the towel and dropping the extra $ on the Anthem.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

If you purposefully hook up one of the front speakers out of phase, do it sound better or worse (you never know if something inside the 950 got wired up wrong for the RCA output for one of the front channels).

patman, It sound worse.

A pair of speakers wired out of phase to each other would cause you to lose all imaging and make the bass appear anemic. The difference isn't subtle; you'd notice it right away.

Best,
Sanjay

Ah! I get what Patman's saying. Is it possible to get some wires reversed at the factory that would cause the pre-amp outputs to be out of phase? Something that could be tested by connecting the speakers "backwards" at the amp? It would seem like something that could happen more easily at the amp, but santaclarajim had similar poor results with his 950 when using the Anthem amp (if I remember correctly), which would seem to get the 770 off the hook.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

gonk,

Thanx for the clarification; I misunderstood patman's message. If it is in fact a phase mis-wire, it could be anywhere in the 950. (That would truly suck!)

Howwever, it can be tested pretty easily using the two main front speakers and by playing something with heavy mono content (AM radio) and listening for a stable phantom image in between the two speakers. This would settle the phase issue once and for all.

Sanjay

Whoa - I read this forum occasionally but this thread is just plain silly. It reminds me of the JR Cigar BB, where if you post that you smoke an Opus xXx, and think that it is a better cigar than the JR Ultimate, the regular BB'ers will you lynch you for this sacrilege - get over it; everyone gets an opinion and you in fact get what you pay for.

SantaClaraJim heard some gear that is more expensive than Outlaw gear and he likes that sound better. It is OK for him to like this other gear better; in fact there is plenty of Home Theater/HI Fi gear that will make the Outlaw products pale in comparison.
In fact I bet my McCormack Line Drive Deluxe with EPS, DNA .5 and Apogee Centaurs ab'ed next to Outlaw 950, Outlaw 750 amp and whatever low budget speaker would decimate the Outlaw gear in two channel audio. Why? Luscious parts, hand made in the US by HI FI aficionados with a far greater budget. Yeah they cost a lot more than the Outlaw gear for example - if the 950 is $900 for a 7 channel preamp and all the processing gear, and the McCormack Line Drive is 2 channels with NO gain - what does that work out to - $120 a channel for the 950 and $1250 for the McCormack (no remote either)?

Damn, what a long post - but, go easy on the jingoism and you'll get along better.

You could also use the phase test sequence on the VE or AVIA calibration DVD to confirm correct phase.

I have to admit I'm stumped on this one. I would suggest doing the series connected preamp/amp setup I outlined in this thread, where the left and right outputs of the 950 feed an aux input on the HK preamp, then on to the power amps and speakers, and the CD, to another aux input on the HK directly. The inputs could easily be switched back and forth _using the HK and original power amp_ in the loop, to see if the 950 adds/subtracts anything in the CDs playback. The volume difference between the 950 and the direct CD could be equalized by the 950's volume control. I would bet there would be no, or little difference, but the experiment should be done, as so much digital ink has been spilled in this thread on the subject. If I lived closer, my own curiosity would make me want to hear Jim's system to sort things out.

Sounds like your work for McCormack....

Cool down...we're not questioning Jim's ears or choice of components. We're just trying to suggest ways he can confirm to his own satisfaction if the added expense of the Anthem would be justified. Personally, I would just want him to enjoy _whatever_ he gets!

Many moons ago, I did almost exactly what SC Jim did. On a Monday when a local Anthem dealer was closed, me and a friendly saleman(the owner's grandson) conpared the Anthem AVM-20 to the 950. As best I can remember, this system used a Denon 2800 DVD player as the source, a matching 5 channel Anthem amp as the power, and expensive JM Labs speakers. Not that it mattered, but video was a Sony 10HT projector.

For DVD movie playback, we could not tell the difference between the Anthem and the Outlaw. For digital playback of CDs, we thought that we very slightly favored the Anthem, but that might have been cost/expectations bias entering into our non-blinded, non-scientific comparison. Finally, for analog bypass playback, we both slightly preferred the Anthem.

Since this was many months ago, the 950 was one of the demo versions(I think?) and the Anthem was a version prior to the availability of the DPL2 upgrade to that unit.

We finished our comparison by sitting down and watching the rest of Star Wars: TPM using the 950.

Since then, I found that adding a Sony P9K preamp and ICBM for MC SACD and analog CD playback to the Outlaw 950, makes the combo both cheaper ($1600 vs $2500+) and sonically superior(IMO) to the Anthem for all musical and movie uses in my HT system. YMMV.

[This message has been edited by merc (edited October 04, 2002).]

Merc,

The difference I heard was so obvious that I must conclude that either:

a) something was wrong with the configuration or hardware of the Outlaw Unit

or

b) the dealer "cooked" the demo. Please note that I didn't scrutinize the hookup of the cables to the Outlaw.

I think I will ask the dealer for an over-the-weekend loaner.

That will be the best way to resolve this whole matter. Failing that, I am not sure how to proceed.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

Um, we're testing this unit - yeah, that's it!

I'm not trying to insult you, or anyone else, but the difference between hearing (a physical response to sound waves) and perception should always be kept in mind. I hope you can get your loaner.

Merc has a really cool solution to the double bass issue (see above) and if the digital (A->D->A and D->A) part of the 950 is clean that would be a possible solution for me. The noise measurements soundhound took really shake my level of confidence though.

One last thing I'd consider to split the difference on the expense. The 950 has a bit of an analytical sound erring on the cool side. If the 750 has similar sonic qualities, the combination might not be good for someone that enjoyed a warmer sound.

I have my 950 paired up with a Rotel 985. I originally thought the 985 was a bit bloomy and over warm in the lower mids when mated with my previous Rotel pre/pro. But with the 950 the tubbiness is gone, and HT at least sounds excellent to the point where more money spent to improve on that sound would seem quite excessive to me.

For me, cool sounding components should always be counter weighted with warmer ones. That way you don't end up with an overly analytical sound or an overly bloomy undetailed one either.

In other words - try the 950 with other amps. (whew, took awhile to get to the punchline).

I have no doubt at over twice the price the Anthem would sound better (I've heard alot of good things), but by mating the 950 with the right amp, you might be able to close the gap quite a bit.

Okay! Alright! That's it! I gots ta know!

I'm going to have to a head-to-head at my home. I called the dealer. I can buy an Anthem AVM20 witha 7 day return policy. He knows my intentions and is okay with it.

I have placed the order and will try the Anthem out against the 950. No more speculation.

The only unanswered question that will remain will be whether I have a bad 950 unit or not. If anyone in the SF Bay area is interested in participating, let me know.

I won't get the Anthem for about a week.

More to follow.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

Jim- I'm also in Santa Clara. (Near Lawrence and El Camino.)

If it's OK, I'd like to stop by for a listen. (I've never seen the Anthem.)

kevin5brownremovefornonspam@yahoo.com.

I have the Autosound 2000 test disc, with that and a sound meter, we can get the phase correct between the mains and sub. (A bugaboo of mine.) Sometimes explains why people think a component or speakers are bass-challenged!

now your gettin' somewhere. will be very interesting...

btw, kevin: been meaning to ask, which disc (#) do you have and what format is it? i have been wondering how the disc works in 6 ch. bypass.

Kevin,

I am in the same neighborhood. You are most welcome. I look forward to having an additional pair of ears to validate the results.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

SCJim, could you please report what the 950 sounds like when you hook up one speaker out of phase (reverse the polarity), just to rule out the bad imaging of the 950 due to one of the outputs having its polarity inadvertently reversed on the inside.

Yeah!!!!! Sooner or later, somebody in the Bay Area had to come along!


Thanks Kevin. I'm quite pleased you volunteered to to visit Jim and see his 950 system (with as an added bonus it looks like, the Anthem). You being on site can probably help determine if there's a problem, or not. The problem may turn out to be something we never thought of, like Jim's CD player. Keep us informed!

Will

Jim,

Perhaps you should give us the name of the dealer so we could verify when and how you did the shootout. Who knows, the dealer might reward you - we might switch to ANTHEM too.

Will,

I wish it were the CD player. Remember, the sound was not great using the CD player supplied by the dealer. Also, the CD player that sounded poor through the 950, sounded good through the Anthem.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

JIM, regardless the outcome.
I hope you buy the units that are right for you!!!

Have a great weekend!

BoB- It's a discrete tone test compact disc. For the 5.1 analog inputs, it obviously can only "look" at the 2 channels hooked up via the analog outputs of the CD/DVD player.

(In other words, I have *8* cables from my DVD player to the 950: 5.1 + 2 channels stereo.)

I never thought it worthwhile to say for example, to hook up the L + R mains from the DVD player to the surround or rear channels of the 950.

Patman, if I can remember, I'll bring my Avia disc to Jim's. Avia has good phase tests.

I have a mental checklist going:

1) mains + sub phase
2) quick check of all config items
2a) crossover settings, speaker cals, etc.
3) speaker placement
4) L + R main's phase
5) hiss

Anything else?

Oh yeah, sound quality!

By the way folks. Awhile back I created a lab test tone CD with tones from 10hZ to 20,000hz. I also did a disc with pink noise tests (stereo) If any of 'yall would like to get it-and-rip-it-and-pass-it-along to someone else, I would be more than happy to send it.

Soundhound,
If you would be so kind, please send it my way.

Thank you,
santaclarajim(guess_which_part_to_remove)@yahoo.com

SH: Here's what I'm after:

The Autosound 2000 CD I have goes every Hz from 10 to 98. Great resolution, but you can successfully take care of room nodes up to around 300 Hz.

The Stryke CD I have goes roughly 1/6 octaves from 10 Hz to 160 Hz, then 1/3 from 160 to whatever. (I only care about from 10 to 320 Hz.) I don't think that is fine enough resolution.

Mine will (someday!) be 1/20 octave spacing from 21 Hz to 320 Hz: (My sub is -6 dB at 20 Hz.)

21 42 84 168
22 44 88 176
23 46 92 184
...
39 78 156 312
40 80 160 320

80 tracks on the CD.

What's your increment?


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited October 05, 2002).]

Kevin:

The increments are 1hZ from 10 to 40, 5hZ from 45 to 95, 100hZ from 100 to 900, 1kHz from 1000 to 20kHz. It has left, right, in polarity, and out of polarity pink noise also.

The disc was made more as an all-purpose tool than for finding room nodes, but it is good for finding low frequency extension. There are plenty of programs I've found out there for generating audio and video test signals, and some do good sweeps etc.

kcb & sh: here are my questions:

1.) what happens to the signal of a stereo cd when played in 6 ch. bypass? (sound comes through all 6 channels and i have no clue how it's routed or what that does to the test)

2.) kcb, fortunately, you can get the signal to play through only L+R+sub if you are in stereo mode before engaging 6 ch bypass (though some view it as a glitch). which was the case when you tested for phase in 6 ch bypass?

3.) soundhound, did you also see the approx. 180 shift in phase that kcb observed with your test disc?

4.) kcb, did twaeking the phase on your sub essentially correct the phase problem?

i appreciate any input on this subject. i think it's a very important discovery and can lead to getting the best out of the 950 in all listening modes. if the sub is out of phase with the mains, the rs spl meter calib will result in a terribly bad calibration.

Hi soundhound,
I'd like to get a copy of your CD. Maybe we could ask for the Outlaws to host a file server for great resources like this. Alternatively, perhaps we could start a Yahoo egroup where files can be maintained.
TIA,
Jim

tofufot:

Santa Clara Jim actually got to me first, but I'm still waiting for his address to get to me so I can pop it in the mail (you out there JIm???). I intended to circulate one CD out there and have people make a CD copy of it and then pass it along to anybody else who wants to get a copy. I'd love to do a mass mailing, but I have to eat too! The CD is packed to the gills at 74 minutes, so it might not be very practical to host on a server, much less download, but I'm open to any ideas you have.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 05, 2002).]

Soundhound,

I don't want to post my address on the Net. How would you like me to get it to you?

Please advise.

Thank you,
Santa Clara Jim

Are you referring to acoustic phase of the sub to the mains, or electrical absolute phase? I didn't do the latter test of phase (really polarity) when I did noise measurements.

I don't use the LFE output of the 950: I have an analog crossover in-line with my main left and right front speakers at 60hZ which direct the bass to stereo subwoofers which sit next to their respective speakers. Used this way, I don't experience any problems regarding phase.

I'm a huge believer in stereo bass, since I've found that low frequencies ARE directional to some extent, especially with recordings of things like pipe organs or any recording which captures a lot of low frequency ambience. Having only one sub, it can be difficult to integrate into the system, and can interfere with the imaging of the other speakers, as some of you have found. I think this issue gets even more important in the playback of SACD and DVD-A. The mono LFE channel was designed for _cinema_ , not music.

OK, soundhound, take deep breath, step off soapbox, It'll be ok now.......


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 05, 2002).]

Soundhound,

Errr...
Nevermind.

Jim

Hi, Everyone.

Some people have asked me for the name of the dealer in the San Jose, California area that made Anthem/Outlaw head-to-head possible.

Darren at "Paradise Audio and Video"

http://www.paradise-sound.com/

in Saratoga, California was kind enough to offer assistance.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

BoB- Here goes...

1.) what happens to the signal of a stereo cd when played in 6 ch. bypass? (sound comes through all 6 channels and i have no clue how it's routed or what that does to the test)

>> see #2

2.) kcb, fortunately, you can get the signal to play through only L+R+sub if you are in stereo mode before engaging 6 ch bypass (though some view it as a glitch). which was the case when you tested for phase in 6 ch bypass?

>> There are 3 ways I measured for phase. i) coax digital. ii) 2 channel analog input (DVD). iii) the front 2 channels for the 5.1 analog inputs. The phase for i & ii was the same. But the phase for iii was ~180 deg off from i & ii.

4.) kcb, did twaeking the phase on your sub essentially correct the phase problem?

>> No. I can get *either* the coax digital/2 channel analog inputs, *or* the 5.1 analog input the be in phase at one time. For now, I know what the knob should be set to on the back of my sub, so I just switch it for whatever source I'm listening to. BTW, it does make sense that the coax digital phase is exactly the same as 2 channel analog. ... Because the 2 channel analog source is getting A-to-D'ed, then time delayed and bass managed, then D-to-A'ed. The coax input is exactly the same (it looks like) except for the 1st A-to-D conversion.


When I get more time, I want to try a "middle" setting and do measurements at the listening position to see if I can't get a happy compromise between the 2 phase settings on my sub. Also, just for info, between the 2 phase settings (coax digital/2 channel analog in phase, 5.1 analog out of phase vs coax digital/2 channel analog out, 5.1 analog in), the sound level value difference was about 5 dB. Pure test tone at the crossover setting.

Also, BTW, the new version of Anthem software includes a sub polarity setting as well as a variable sub phase setting in increments of 5 Hz (I think). But I believe that the Anthem does *all* bass management digitally, so that pre/pro presumably wouldn't have the same problem as the 950.

My two cents on this issue:

In my search for a pre-pro/amp combo for music and movies, I have owned the following (used with DH Labs BL-1 Interconnects, DH Labs T-14 speaker cable, Axiom Audio 80ti towers, VP-150 CC, M3ti bookshelf surrounds, Hsu Research VTF-2 sub):

Anthem AVM20 (startling dynamic range, sterile 2-channel, paired with Sherbourn 5/1500A)

Lexicon DC-1 (great effects steering, electronic 2-channel, paired with Outlaw 750)

Aragon Soundstage (crisp and dynamic, very nice 2-channel, paired with Sherbourn 5/1500A)

Acurus ACT-3 (surprisingly good dynamics, slight "whispery" quality, good 2-channel, paired with Sherbourn 5/1500A)

EAD Ovation Plus (decent dynamics, outstanding 2-channel, paired with EAD Powermaster 1000)

Bryston SP-1 (quietest of all, let every detail and nuance come through, excellent steering and dynamics, painfully revealing 2-channel induced "ear burn", paired with EAD Powermaster 1000, best for HT alone)

Sunfire TGII (terrific dynamics, great 2-channel, paired with EAD Powermaster 1000, the best for both disciplines that I found)

Then I heard a Jolida SJ202 integrated tube amp, and fell in love. I mainly listen to female vocals, and it's just magic.

And now, after a recent financial downturn, I've picked up a 950/750 setup. The Jolida has freed me from needing a pre-pro/amp combo that does music well, making the Outlaw combo a nice fit for now.

Yes, the Anthem was better for HT, with improved dynamics and clarity, but the difference is minor. The Outlaw would get an 8 to the Anthem's 9, which doesn't justify the price difference in my book.

When fortune smiles on me again, I will get another Bryston SP-1 and another Powermaster 1000, set them down next to the Jolida and be in heaven.

But in the meantime, this Outlaw setup is doing me and my empty wallet serious justice.

Ah, yes: toobs GOOD.....solid state BAAAD...........

Soundhound,
I'd like your test tones disc if SCJ hasn't claimed it, and the 12 bit (or was it 2 bit) challenge disc for myself and passing on (that doesn't sound right). Anyway, my
My email address is jgarbern157294mi@comcast.net
TIA,
Jim

Tofufot,

You're next in line. I will contact you.

regards,
Santa Clara Jim

SC Jim: I want this CD too. I have a cable modem or can paypal for CD and shipping if necessary. LMK.

------------------
Take Care,
merc

The test tone disc is about 750MB - can anybody host this?? Maybe somebody with a lot of disc space can break down the CD into seperate files for each test tone. Each one lasts for 1 minute and therefore has a file of about 10 MB.

Hopefully the 'Listening Challenge' CD will be available to download online soon!


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 09, 2002).]

Bill D - I followed your pre/pro journey with interest in other forums. I was especially interested when I was considering the Soundstage as an alternative to the 950. I chose the 950 for budget reasons as well and still am happy I did.

Like you I'm quite satisfied with the HT performance and realize I could spend a lot more and get a little more. With my upcoming projector purchase I've had to shelf my plans for a 2 channel pre. But after I get the music pre, I'll be very satisfied with my setup and the money I was able to save.

The 950 is definitely the champagne taste beer budget pre/pro of the bunch. And its interesting that with both of our excruciating pre/pro auditions we've both ended up here.

If anyone out there's interested in getting the pre/pro lowdown, read Bills post again. I've never come across anyone with more first hand knowledge.

FYI...

The Anthem has arrived. The Head-to-Head will begin tomorrow.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

For those of you interested in how other new processors stack up, there is a "comparison" in the November Sound & Vision magazine between the Anthem AVM20/Aragon Stage One/ Sunfire Theater Grand III pre/pros.

Looking forward to it.

The head-to-head was held last night. But I don't want to post my impressions until Jim has a chance to first...

Kevin: Awww come on... how bout a hint?
Should Anthem owners put that ad in Audiogon and contact Scott for a place in line?

OK, Merc asked...

The Anthem is a beautiful, beautiful unit. "Heft", engineering, and asthetics.

But I personally don't think the Anthem is worth either 3x the price of the 950, or more than $2k more than the 950. There *are* differences, but I'm a waitin' SCJim's comments before I post any further...



[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited October 19, 2002).]

What happened at the head-to-head?

(If you want the quick and dirty answer, skip to the bottom of this posting.)

As Kevin has already mentioned, he and I did a head-to-head of the Anthem AVM20 to the Outlaw 950 on Wednesday of this week. If you have been following this thread, you know that I declared following a head-to head in a local high-end stereo shop, that the Outlaw 950 paled in comparison to the Anthem. I believe that I said that the Anthem stack “buried the Outlaw 950/770 pair with neither last rites nor a funeral”.

First, the following speakers were used on both tests:

Front Speakers: JBL S312
Center Channel: B.I.C. DV62CLR
Surrounds: Klipsch Quintet
Subwoofer: Infinity HPS-250
Cables: 4 Monster and 1 DIY Cat-5

So, having now performed a shootout between the two units, what can I conclude?

Having listened very closely and critically, I can now say that the Anthem does, in fact, produce better quality sound. The highs are much cleaner, the bass is tighter and the soundstage is much more airy. Listening to the same Diana Krall CD I used for the in-store head-to-head, I was struck by the clarity of the cymbals, guitars and, most noticeably, her voice. This unit sounds amazing.

Further, the Anthem is infinitely configurable. You are presented with a myriad of choices, from timing adjustments to account for video delay, to level adjustments that allow you to compensate for an especially hot audio source. Also, the Anthem unit can be upgraded, pushing out its window of obsolescence. (Outlaw’s decision not to include an upgrade path was, in my opinion, a fundamental mistake.)

As a musician, when I listen to a recording, I want the experience to mirror the original event as closely as possible. I am looking for nuance and accuracy. If I close my eyes, I expect to be sitting in the studio, watching the session. I want to hear the placement of the instruments and vocalists. While listening to the Diana Krall CD during the head-to-head, I said to Kevin, “I can almost hear the spit in her mouth.” The Anthem provides that level of accuracy in an A/V pre-amp.

In terms of home-theater performance, the Anthem offers every digital decoding scheme you could want, including THX-Ultra2. Watching the crash scene at the beginning of “Pitch Black”, the Anthem sounded amazing. Watching the Matrix last evening, my girlfriend actually jumped with surprise on at least two occasions. I could not hear any hiss unless I stuck my ears on the tweeters.

In terms of build quality, the Anthem is a solid, well-designed unit. The front controls are somewhat busy. But, as Kevin mentioned, this unit has heft. Further, the Anthem offers balanced outputs to ensure minimal noise is introduced on the interconnects between the pre-amp and the amplifier. In short, the Anthem AVM20 is well designed and it offers most everything a home-theater enthusiast could desire… at a $3000 price tag.

On to the 950…

The 950 does not offer the same sonic quality or flexibility. In terms of sound, the 950 produces highs that are flatter and mushier. The soundstage is not as apparent. The bass is more muddled. The vocals are less defined and not as spacious. The 950 is well built but it does not possess the same heft as the AVM20.

The Outlaw is certainly not as configurable. There are some settings on the Anthem that I think the 950 could certainly use. If the Outlaws had included an upgrade mechanism on the 950, those features could have been added later. (Hint, hint, Outlaw!)

How does the 950 compare?

In terms of home-theater performance, the 950 certainly holds its own. It has most of the digital decoding schemes a home-theater enthusiast would want. The sound quality is very good.

When listening to music, I have to give the Anthem the clear edge. (Anthem 9 - Outlaw 7.) The Oultaw did not provide the same soundstage and clarity that the Anthem offered. That conclusion does not change.

Does the Outlaw 950 pale in comparison? Well, yes and no. It depends upon your criteria. Does the Anthem sound better? An emphatic “Yes!” I could hear subtle yet, to my ears, very noticeable and important differences between the Outlaw 950 and the Anthem AVM20. The Anthem handles music substantially better than the Outlaw. For movies, the differences are not as great. I would give the Anthem’s cinema peformance a “9” to the Outlaw’s “8”.

The fundamental question…

Is the Anthem AVM20 worth the added expense? I can only answer that question with a question. What is the added sound quality and functionality worth to you? I hear a difference and that difference makes all the difference. The Anthem is certainly a better sounding unit.

Does it bury the Outlaw? Well, the Anthem pre/pro and amplifier combo costs just over twice as much. Therefore, for its price, the Outlaw represents an amazing value!

So, I guess I’ll stand by what I said in the original post…

You get what you pay for!

I will, however, add an amendment…

In my opinion, Outlaw Audio has succeeded in its mission. The Outlaw 950/770 still sounds amazing. For the price, I don’t think you can beat it.

If money is an object, the Outlaw 950/770 is a great value. However, if you have the wherewithal, buy the Anthem. You will not regret it!

As for me, I am truly torn. I have to choose by Wednesday night. I’ll let you know.

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

Hi Jim,

In any home theater, balance is key. Personally, if I had JBL S312 front speakers (available new for under $142 a pair at eCost.com) and a BIC DV62CLR center speaker (available new for under $130 at nowOnSpecial.com) and the KLIPSCH Quintet Microsystem surrounds, I'd probably upgrade my speakers, to better match the capabilities of either the Anthem or Outlaw.

Whatever differences you heard between a properly set up Anthem and Outlaw should pale mightily, in comparison to the differences you should hear after upgrading your speakers, from those three different vendors. I hope you re-balance your home theater, whether you get the Outlaw or the Anthem. The difference in price between the Outlaw 950/770 and the Anthem combo (presumably the AVM20 + MCA-50 + MCA-20 = about $6K) may be used to buy speakers, if you were so inclined.

Good luck with your Wednesday decision!

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 19, 2002).]

i have to be honest here. i expected much more in this comparison.

it sounds like, though you are 'torn', your comparison consisted of your favorite cd, a few dd 5.1 movie soundtracks, ear-to-tweeter hiss test and the comparative weight of the prepros.

no sacd, no dvd-a, no dts music video, you didn't switch amps to compare them, no phase adjustment feature info on the anthem, video switching, eq, crossover change effect, what does thx ultra II add, if anything, remote control, do balanced connections better the sound, warranty, dts es, dd ex, cirrus extra, etc.

i have no idea how these 2 units compare by your much awaited post.

And just out of curiousity, how loud was hiss on the 950 in this same configuration?

Will,

While I agree that balance is critical, I would only ask you if you have heard any of these speakers?

Of the speakers in the list, I would only replace the Klipsch.

As for the response from bossobass, patience is a virtue. I am sorry you are disappointed but 1) my life does not revolve around my home theater and 2) we tested a great deal more but trying to describe it all would be prohibitively time-consuming.

If you have have specific questions, please pose them. I will be conducting further tests this weekend.

Charlie,

I noticed slightly less hiss on the Anthem. You might want to ask Kevin about that.

More to follow,

SC Jim

OK, I personally didn't (or couldn't! ) hear the differences as being as apparent as what Jim posted.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I *did* want to hear a difference. I want to fully believe that if you spend the difference between the Anthem and the 950, that you indeed do get something for your money.

But at least in sound quality alone, I don't think that was the case. I *maybe* heard a little more open top end, and a little more more ayre (hee, hee) in the high frequencies, but that was it. We did focus on CDs, and the CD format itself can be problematic. Jim does have a brand spanking new Pioneer 45a, so maybe if he gets a chance, he could try some DVD-A's or some SACDs before he has to decide.

But. The Anthem is a lot more flexible in the setup parameters. (S&V was right, in their comparison between this guy, the Sunfire, and the Aragon.) There wasn't much in terms of config options that the Anthem *doesn't* have.

There was some hiss on Jim's system, but quite acceptable in both the 950's case and the Anthem. (We didn't really compare that night, but sounds like Jim did later on.)

There were some suggestions I made concerning the room that would help the sound a little, and maybe make the differences more apparent, or maybe not. (He has a tile floor, and I suggested an area rug in front of the speakers to reduce reflections, and he does have room to move the speakers forward from the front wall a little more. Another idea, Jim, is to put a tapesty or something on the wall to the right of your system, in the front. You have the sliding glass doors on the left side with the curtains, and that's OK there.)

Jim's mains and sub are in phase. But here's where the scientificness of phase gets interesting. On my system, "out of phase" to "in phase" gives me about a 5 dB difference in sound level. On Jim's, we got maybe 1 or 2 dB. (Roughly the same volume, using an 80 Hz test tone, what he had the crossover set at.) I have a variable phase knob, and Jim's sub has a switch. The conclusion? Jim's switch allows him the choice between "more in phase" and "less in phase" but not from 0 to 180 deg, more like 60 deg to 240 deg or something.

Here's how I would look at it, and Jim mentioned some of this in his review. If I had an Anthem, and could afford it, I'd keep it. If I already had the 950, and was looking into Anthem, I would keep the 950. But the Anthem is a piece of gear you buy now, and probably still have 4 years from now. The 950? Maybe a year or 2 piece of gear. Simply because of its lower price, you can upgrade later on, sooner.

"There was some hiss on Jim's system, but quite acceptable in both the 950's case and the Anthem"

So Kevin your saying you could hear hiss thru the Anthem. Presume you mean without any source playing? Any tape measured distance / ear to tweeter to report?

Based on the hiss you heard from each unit, do you belive the 950s to be acceptable/just highly talked about. I guess why I'm asking is you hear no hiss complaints at the HTF on the Anthem/several other issues (not all positive) are being discussed.

To me its interesting how much the 950s hiss continues to be discussed/given that it appears you heard a similar hiss from the Anthem. More and more, it seems to go back to "system dependent", and those with unacceptable hiss have a unhappy marriage among their equipment somewhere.

The only question I have is when you compared the 2 units on CD's, what were you using for DAC's: the player or the processor? (digital or analog input to the processor?)

I use a dedicated DAC, so all I need from a processor is transparency of the analog signal. Asking a HT processor to do a great job converting CD bits to music is a difficult task and one that most HT units do not stress in their design.

If the differences with CD's was significant using analog inputs, to me THAT means something. If it was with digital inputs, for the $2200 extra it costs to buy the Anthem, you could buy a great CD player or DAC.

AJ- We used the digital input exclusively.

As far as hiss... It's tricky because I didn't do a direct comparison. Here's the dope: I know the 950 *in my system* hisses more than the Sony TA-E9000ES it replaced. I can hear hiss out to 4 ft from my rear center, and out to 2 ft on every other speaker. The Sony? Ear to the tweeter is the only way I can hear it.

OK, so in Jim's system, I only checked the Anthem. (I *should* have brought the stupid check list I had up above, oh well...). From Jim's mains, I could hear the Anthem hiss to about 1 ft. I did not check the 950. The other caveat is, for whetever reason, Jim's unit also hissed "differently" in my system. Pretty much across the board, it was about 2 ft, even the rear center. But the replacement unit Outlaw sent me to make sure I didn't have a faulty unit, acted the exact same way mine did. Go figure.

I'm afraid that I have to agree with Will. That speaker setup may be fine, but is certainly not in the same class as the Anthem. I believe that a different speaker setup would likely have revealed more significant differences between the Anthem and the 950.

By all accounts, both the 950 and the Anthem are very nice sounding units (hiss notwithstanding). With that in mind, it will take higher and higher quality speakers to reveal more differences.

If you're going to stick with the Anthem, I would highly suggest a speaker upgrade to take full advantage of it. If you stick with the 950, I'd still go for an all-around upgrade. Similarly-voiced speakers all-around are critical to a realistic soundfield.

Don't discount the difference a set of speakers will make. Also, speakers tend to be the _best_ long-term investment in an audio system. A $3000 component could be outdated and outperformed by a $300 component in just a few short years. An expensive speaker system can continue to hold its own for many, many years.

Jim:

Was that test tone CD I sent you useful in setting things up?

Jim:

While the individual speakers you have may not be in and of themselves bad, they are mismatched all around. The only worse setup would be to have a different left and right speaker. Before springing for the Anthem, I would spring for the S-Center and 4 S26's (or 36's) all around in the rears. This "upgrade" will give you much better bang for the buck (and probably better sound overall) than the 950 to Anthem upgrade (with your current setup). Really.

[This message has been edited by tonygeno (edited October 20, 2002).]

Jim- So maybe that's a thought: keep the 950, and sink that extra cash into your mains.