Do you really mean this literally? It is generally agreed by most all audiophiles that if your speakers are not capable of reproducing the frequency range from 20kHz down to 20Hz -no more than -3dB down- then you do not have full range speakers. Period. Those speakers that are capable of this are very expensive- I bet not many participating at this site have such a set-up. (Especially 5 of them). I do not consider a speaker/subwoofer setup using an external crossover to meet the criteria of a full range speaker, even in a stereo arrangement. As charlie said the other day, Dolby 5.1 was designed for 5 full range speakers and a subwoofer for LFE. (If, as you say, the studios choose to ignore the LFE channel, then I suppose that is their perogative). If "they" had mandated full range speakers only, most of us would be looking for a new hobby. IMHO, bass management_for most of us_using our pre/pro's capabilities works fine. I have no problem with your setup- in fact there are some advantages to be had with it. I just think the intention was/is to have an _easy_ and workable solution for the "masses". By the way, I have 2 subs that I used to operate in similar stereo configuration to what you have going (using an external stereo crossover). I now have them stacked near a corner and get better results in my room for both HT and music. Not perfect by any means, but I'm still working with them. YMMV! And then you have **THX**! So, everybody -- set all your speakers to "small" and crossovers at 80Hz and be amazed at how well it works! But don't tell anybody 'cause most will never admit they have anything that's considered small.

[This message has been edited by steves (edited October 12, 2002).]

I downloaded the .zip file and unzipped it into the .wav file. I sent the .wav file to the computer that has the plextor cd burner and burned a cd (burner set to slowest burn speed of 4x). I also sent the .wav file to another computer that sits next to the stereo. I will hook this computer up to the stereo and play the .wav through via the turle beach santa cruz sound card. I will also play the cd through the same stereo and compare the .wav file sound via the computer to the burned cd playing in the audio cd player.

I will have to listen to the file a few times to become familiar with it before I listen with the purpose of detecting when the bit depth changes between 16, 12 and 8 bits.

If I can't hear any changes, then I'll certainly have one severe case of audiophile letdown. I will need years of therapy, perhaps in Tahiti. But on the bright side, I can sell all my audio stuff and just use a kenner close-and-play. Maybe they have an updated one that plays DVDs.

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the 1derful1

Steves:

I never said that movie sound mixing stages ignore the LFE channel - Just that bass management isn't used anywhere except in home theatre. Please re-read what I said above.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 13, 2002).]

After you give it a try, post your impressions here, then Email me at soundhound@earthlink.net and I'll send you the 'cheat sheet" that has the timings of all the changes.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 13, 2002).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by steves:
It is generally agreed by most all audiophiles that if your speakers are not capable of reproducing the frequency range from 20kHz down to 20Hz -no more than -3dB down- then you do not have full range speakers. Period.
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i don't know much about 'most audiophiles' opinions, but there is virtually NO program fed to the 5 main speakers below 40hz., multichannel music or HT soundtrack. this qualifies a lot of affordable floor standers.
i have found that there simply aren't many 'audiophiles' comments available in the multichannel digital format arena. i personally consider many of the people who post here to be very knowledgeable in this relatively new format.
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I do not consider a speaker/subwoofer setup using an external crossover to meet the criteria of a full range speaker, even in a stereo arrangement.
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i don't understand this comment.
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And then you have **THX**! So, everybody -- set all your speakers to "small" and crossovers at 80Hz and be amazed at how well it works!
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i have modeled every speaker in my database and found that implementing a high pass filter before the amp (at 40, 60, 80 and 100hz.) causes a huge 6db hump at the crossover point. in fact, the resulting strain on the driver causes it to unload in the vast majority of cases at reference level. if you select 80hz as a high pass to all 5 speakers, and if lower than 80hz as a lowpass on your sub sounds better to you, you lose information. if higher than 80hz sounds better as a lowpass, you have double bass. soundhound, bstan, et al, have eliminated theses shortcomings with the redirection of the bass info, but still have changed the original mix of many multichannel programs. how can this ever be considered 'audiophile'?

both the producers of surround soundtracks (see soundhound's comments) and multichannel music discs (see the telarc link) use 5 full range speakers and a sub with no bass management to monitor the mix of the the masters. it only makes sense to play it back the same way...masses be damned.

Bosso:

You're right that there's usually no deep bass in the main speakers of a film soundtrack. I know - I sit right there at the mixing console when the films are mixed. The main front speakers on a dubbing stage are sped'd down to 30hZ, the surrounds to 40hZ. All the real low bass goes to the speaker that is built to take it - the subwoofer. That's where that little track on my workstation's screen labelled 'LFE" goes...........

I wonder what your take is on this: what ever happened to 'acoustic suspension' speakers in the transistion to Home Theatre? Those speakers were certainly capable of going down to 30-40hZ easily and cheaply, and with modest cabinet dimensions. Sure they were inefficient, but amplifier power is relatively cheap. Can you think of any reason why they would not have been a better solution than a vented box, which can flail it's woofer if presented the wrong frequency and level of bass?


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 13, 2002).]

True. There is not much information below 40Hz on most music recordings either, but that does not change the accepted definition of what constitutes a full range speaker.
Interesting! I would add that_generally speaking_ speaker internal crossovers can- and do- cause similar humps and/or dips in some models available.
Absolutely true!
Agreed. If you have 5 full range speakers. Yeah, to hell those masses anyway!

bosso:



This is one reason I use the symmetrical L/R -24dB slope for my low-pass and high-pass filters to the sub(s), it sums to zero dB gain and zero degree phase angle offset.

Most ported main speakers are probably in the -18dB to -36dB acoustic rolloff category all by themselves, unlike the well behaved 12dB rolloff of sealed acoustic suspension speakers.

Add this excessive rolloff of the ported speaker to the electical -12dB high-pass rolloff of the processor and you get crap for a smooth bass management xover. Who knows what kinhd of phase offsets in produces.

Just some of the reasons bass management is such a rats nest.

One of the inherent problems of a sub satelite system is frequency humps and frequency holes.

It's my understanding that frequency humps are more noticable than frequency holes, and for that reason, designers may tend to not want to make the high pass crossover and low pass crossover exactly the same, since that might cause a frequency hump.

Better to have designed-in fequency hole instead than risk having a frequency hump.

A sub-sat system with a hole sounds pleasing, until compared against a full range system. The rull range system sounds better.

Take the wife and kids and run for the hills - film industry secret plot revealed! When, in a film mix a source is double assigned to both the mains and the LFE (very common) - the result is.....The result iiiiSSSSS_______DOUBLE BASS!!!!!!!!!! YEhaaaaaaaa!!!! Oh Nooooooooo.........


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 13, 2002).]