I am thinking about purchasing a new unit. I think I am done with Onkyo, Customer Service isn't what I'd like them to be.

I am thinking about either a 1050 or a denon AVR-3803 Dolby Digital Surround EX, Dolby Pro Logic II & DTS ES Discrete 7.1 A/V Receiver

Dolby Digital Surround EX, Pro Logic II decoding with Cinema and Music Modes
DTS Extended Surround Discrete 6.1 decoding
DTS Extended Surround Matrix 6.1 decoding
DTS Neo:6 Cinema & Music Surround decoding
DTS ES 96/24 5.1 decoding for DVD Video
New DDSC-Digital featuring Analog Devices Melody 100 (HammerHead SHARC) 32 bit floating point DSP processor
7 Channels equal power amplifier section
110 watts per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, <.05%THD)
150 watts per channel (6 ohms, 1 kHz, <.7%THD)
16 Burr-Brown PCM-1791 24 bit, 192 kHz high resolution DACs on all eight channels, in differential configuration
Real 24 bit, 96 kHz Digital Interface Receiver
24 bit, 192 kHz A/D conversion (16 Burr-Brown PCM) on all analog inputs
Pure Audio mode, features 4 DACs per audio channel in dual-differential configuration
ALPHA 24 Processing (AL24) in Stereo/Direct/Pure Direct modes (left/right channels)
Adjustable High and Low Pass Crossover (40/60/80/100/120Hz)
2 Assignable component video inputs (100MHz), with On-Screen Display
Video Conversion of Composite to S-Video and/or to Component, with on-screen display
7 sets composite and "S" video inputs
7.1 external wide bandwidth (100 kHz) input for future multi-channel formats (such as DVD-Audio)
5/7 Channel Stereo
Digitally regulated volume control with .5dB increment adjustments and step range of -80 to +15

Dunno, I'm really having a hard time keeping up with all this crap. Anyone know what all this stuff means? Bottem line is it worth it to get more featurs for 200 bucks more? Are DVD's changing that quickly? I'd hate to buy a 500.00 reciever just to find out it's not compatible with newer DVD's comming out. What is DTS ES? What's up with Burr-Brown... I'd like to hear all your comments on this... This also does multi zoneing and comes with a neat LCD remote. Tho, these things arn't high on my list. Anyway, folks @ audioreview give this unit high marks.

Let me see if I can untangle some of this at least a little.

Dolby Digital EX: Expanded version of Dolby Digital that produces a surround back channel (a sixth or sixth and seventh speaker behind the surrounds). The 1050's Surround 6.1 mode is a proprietary form of this, as Dolby did not begin licensing EX processing until the end of 2001.

Pro Logic II: Successor to Pro Logic. It is much better at converting a stereo signal into surround, including discrete surrounds (unlike Pro Logic, which sent the same information to both surround speakers). It comes with both cinema and music modes, each geared toward movies/TV or music respectively. It is most useful to people who watch a lot of TV or video tapes, or people who like listening to stereo music in surround modes. The 1050 has Pro Logic only.

DTS ES Discrete and Matrix 6.1: DTS ES is DTS's answer to Dolby EX. There are two versions -- one in which the surround back channel is stored "discretely" in the soundtrack and one in which the surround back channel is "matrixed" into the surrounds (which is the same method used by Pro Logic to store the center and surround channels, and Dolby EX to store the surround back channel). There is not a lot of DTS-ES material available. The 1050's Surround 6.1 mode can not be used with a DTS signal, although it can be used with the 5.1 analog input (as would be the case if you were using a DVD player with an onboard DTS decoder and connected six analog audio cables between the player and the 1050).

DTS:NEO6: The DTS version of Pro Logic II.

"New DDSC-Digital featuring Analog Devices Melody 100 (HammerHead SHARC) 32 bit floating point DSP processor": I do believe that this is the marketing way of saying "we really like the DSP engine we put in here" -- the processor that does all the digital signal processing described above.

7 channel amp: They are listing this probably because some of their competitors have often produced receivers that included some form of EX processing (allowing for a sixth or even seventh speaker), but only included built-in amplification for the basic five channels. To use the EX modes, the user would need to get a separate power amp and connect to the receiver's pre-amp outputs. I believe that Onkyo was actually guilty of this at one time, and may still be on their low-end receivers. It just means that you don't need external amplification, even if you do elect to set up surround back speakers.

110W/channel at 8 ohms, 150W/channel at 6 ohms: This is obviously a higher amp rating than the 1050's 65W/channel at 8 ohms. Depending on your speakers, this may be a good thing. Of course, the 1050's legendary for its conservative amp rating. Also, the 1050 is capable of driving a 4 ohm speaker load; the 3803 is not rated below 6 ohms because Denon does not recommend driving a load of less than 6 ohms. Depending on your speakers, this may not matter in the least.

Burr-Brown DACs: Burr-Brown are widely regarded as some of the "best" digital-to-analog converters.

Adjustable High and Low Pass Crossover (40/60/80/100/120Hz): This means that you have some flexibility on the point at which you redirect low frequency information from your speakers to your subwoofer. Both the 1050 and 3803 allow this. Some receivers have a single fixed crossover point (THX requires an 80Hz crossover be used, for example).

The 3803 also has component video switching (2 inputs) and converts between composite video and S-video; the 1050 lacks both features. I'm not real sure what Denon means by "with On-Screen Display" on the component video switching; the bandwidth involved in component video makes things like OSD difficult, even for pre/pros that cost thousands of dollars, so I'm a little wary of seeing OSD strapped onto the component video switching in a receiver with a $1200 MSRP. In all likelihood they simply blank the video input and throw up a blue screen with the receiver's setup menu. The 7.1 external wide bandwidth input is a multi-channel analog input similar to the 1050's 5.1 input, but with the addition of inputs for surround back channels. The "future multi-channel formats" is referring to two currently-available formats -- DVD-Audio and SACD, both of which must be converted to analog audio in the player for copy protection purposes, and both of which are 5.1 formats.

There were a few items on that list that I skipped, but hopefully that will untangle some of it for you. The 3803 is certainly a well-equipped receiver, and I see a lot of people online who certainly like Denon's stuff. There are also some pretty big bargains available online, but not all of them are authorized Denon distributors -- which means buying from them would leave you without any warranty at all. The 1050 is an older design than the 3803 (which is primarily an issue of the extra processing modes like Dolby EX, DTS ES, and Pro Logic II). There have been a number of people here in the forum who have chosen to go with the 1050 over receivers with those extra modes based on the 1050's sound quality and build quality. Of course, you will likely not find many people here in the Outlaw Saloon who chose the extra features (unless they chose the Model 950 pre/pro). If you can get the 3803 with warranty for $700, it would be hard to pass up. At the $900-$1000 that seems to be the typical price among AudioReview reviewers, it might be worthwhile to try the 1050 for 30 days and compare it to the 3803 with your own ears (and your own gear and listening room, if possible).

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

If you get a 1050, you get to post more questions on this forum. That means, you'll get some more amazing replies like the one above from Gonk!

Thanks, for the infomation Gonk. I'm not sure tho. The only bad thing is I've heard Denon has one of the worst Customer Service. So... Maybe I should wait till Outlaw comes out with the 1150?

Are there any plans to retire the 1050?

Thanks for your help. I'm still not sure what to get. I don't really need all that power I was really happy with my onkyo 575 it too had only 65 watts but I think it was plenty loud. I guess Loud enough for the cops to show up at the door. Of course the sunfire sub might have had something to do with that. I wish I knew of someone with a 1050 to review...

Outlaw does have the benefit of first-rate customer service. The 1050's 65W/channel will probably provide more power than your Onkyo (I know that it had more headroom than my Yamaha's 80W/channel), so I doubt you'd have any trouble there. Outlaw has mentioned that they do recognize the need for a successor to the 1050, but they aven't said anything about when such a replacement might appear -- I wouldn't expect one before the end of the year, possibly even not until 2005. That's purely guess-work, though.

Where are you located? There may be a gunslinger in your area with a 1050...

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Yes, the 1050 does not have the features that the newer processors have. That being said why would anyone still buy a 1050? It comes down to, what are your needs?

For me, I had a few requirements:
1 - Awesome Sound
2 - Preouts for upgrading the amp
3 - Be able to handle 4 ohm loads
4 - Under $700

After doing much research, I found that there were very few receivers (at least under $1000) out there that are rated for 4 ohm loads. When talking to salesmen I heard everything from, "Well gee, anything will handle 4 ohms" to "We don't have anything that will handle 4 ohms". This was a clincher for me.

Keep in mind that I don't have a golden ear, but the way the 1050 sounds paired with my Polk LSi's makes me stop and listen more carefully. I find myself listening to music more than ever and movies are more involving. Heck, even my one year old twins sit up and take notice when a movie starts playing.

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** Disclaimer - The above may or may not have any relationship with reality **

I'm in the same situation. I'm looking to buy a receiver, and I really want to get the 1050, but its age is the main thing that puts me off. The age means that there is no DPL II, and the six channel formats are proprietary (if that really matters). The other one I was considering was the Denon 1803, mainly because Cheap Home Theater.com rated its predecessor, the 1802, as their best pick at $500. I guess the things that draw me towards the Outlaw are the performance related issues; certainly sound quality is probably one of the most important issues (if not the most important). I'm just concerned that if I go with the 1050, sooner or later (after the 30 days!) I will end up wondering what it would be like to have those missing features. You can see the rest of my thoughts on this on my other thread in the 1050 forum.

Hi everyone.

I just wanted to give feed back to how I view the 1050. Please do not take any critisms harshly as I want to give thought to the units impression, positive and negative to me.

Firstly I only recently stumbled across the Outlaw (ideology) corporate structure. I have been kicking around the idea of upgrading my A/V receiver ( a nice Denon 5.1 ready unit from a few years ago ) and the 1050 caught my eye as I am one who enjoys the cleaner more understated looks of a quality audio component. From looking at online pics the 1050 looks pleasing to my eyes.

Looking at the internatls also realy stand out for me. The overall level of construction looks great for a midldle priced A/V receiver. The design and layout look clean and tidy. It looks as if it would be a decent receiver for movies and more so for me music playback. The modest power ratings don't concern me too much as the looks of the power supply and the storage capacitors look beefy. I feel that this unit would reproduce audio be it movie or music nicely.

The back panel layout looks claen and uncluttered and the remote looks like a decent universal unit. I like the greenish coloured display as well.

BUT! ( oh know here he goes with a but! )

The unit is basically a 3 year old A/V amp. In 2000 it would have been quite leading edge ( esp. with the concept of a 6.1 set up as 6.1 was only in its infancy in 2000) I'm sure the Zoran custom designed processor would have given established processors from other a serious run for the money. The lack of component switiching inputs back then would not have been a concern for a receiver in its price range. They still may not be such as most HDTV's wil have multiple component inputs today. But 3 years later even more basic A/V receivers are starting to have these and they will have processors that would probably give the Zoran Dolby Digital/ DTS and propriety 6.1 processor a run for the money. I am not faulting Outlaw here as I said in 200 this piece would have been an outstanding value, but time is moving on and many choices from credible manufacturers are apparent.

I doubt most quality A/V receivers today would have better amplifier technology and design, but the 1050 troubles me in these areas I'll note below.

* No phono prepamp. I know, I know I can buy a good one if need be. Well I spin vinyl and have a decent turntable set up. I love vinyl as nothing beats it for sound quality on music. The lack of a phono preamp is not unusual as other manufacturers also do this. But the 1050 is a more higher performing piece ( sound wise ) and those who may wish to buy it may still spin vinyl. The price of $499USD for an amp that is basically a 3 yr old design is getting harder to justify, esp if one has to buy a $100+ phono preamp.

* Next The fact that analogue sources go through a digital processor and can't be seperated using the respective inputs, troubles me as I have a better quality cd player with a very good DAC built in and would not want the 1050 to mess with its signal. I know I can use the 6.1 inputs as a direct connection and that is fine, but! I would want my phono preamp to bypass this digital circuitry too. This means I would need to purchase an outboard audio switcher and plug it into the 6.1 ( Left & Right ) inputs and then plug my cd player and turnatble into this switcher. Again I am looking at upwards of $100 for an external switcher. Now $499USD is looking more like $699USD... Ok, Ok it stil may be worth it for what appears to be a fine A/V receiver in its market segment and I still feel it would sound very pleasing in stereo mode ( very important to me ) and in 5.1 or 6.1 sound, but $699 USD cvan buy me a number of other very nice A/V receivers.

Now here is the kicker, I live in Canada and though our dollar has strengthend in the last 2 months buying the 1050 at $499 USD, plus about $50 USD to ship to my door equals $550USD. The exchange rate is about 1.37 now, this equals $753.50 CDN. I'll have to pay PST/GST and DUTIES that will be about 17.5% and now I am looking at $886.00Cdn. I then must buy a phono preamp and an audio switcher add say $200 Cdn. and I am up to near $1100.00 Cdn. just to have the 1050 ( again I am attracted to it by its concept, looks and amp topology ) for around $1000Cdn I can buy a number of very nice A/V receivers that will offer an easier set up without having to buy extras and these receivers will probably have more updated Digital processors ( I am speaking of models from Denon, Marantz and Yamaha, with the Denon 2802 being far in the lead...IMO )

( Get to your point in your rant.. they are all screaming as they read my post.. LOL )

So why should I even shortlist the Outlaw 1050 with it costing so much to get it to my door and set up in Canada? Yes, again I believe its internal construction is probably first rate esp. compard to others in its price range. Its styling is appealing to me and it probably sounds great once set up for music and movies, but it is still a 3 yr old design missing features that other amps now have. My ( mindless.. LOL ) ranting truly wishes that the 1050 would now have a better price advantage that $499 USD does not offer as well today. If the unit came in under $399USD or better shipped to Canada for say $439USD. it becomes a very attractive hi-po A/V amp for overall sound quality even if its a little old. It would by far outdo in termas of quality any A/V amp I could buy for such price up here in CANUCK LAND and it would making buying into Outlaws (cool) culture and family much more exciting and special.

I know that owning a 1050 would have a more special appeal of near exclusivity esp. up here in Canada and I doubt it would be viewed as just another amp for the masses, but I know ( having owned Denon ) that Denon 2802 ( N.I.B. 2002 model) would sound great too and has everything I want built in for about $900or so Cdn. I really would like to short list the 1050 as I truly think it's cool and the Outlaw concept is very cool, but it is hard for me to justify all I 'll need to spend just to get it and set up the way I want it.

Anyways I just wanted to give this feedback as I am sure all of you who own your 1050s' are generaly happy and please do not take anything as an attack. It is just the pricing for the unit, shipping to Canada, duties and taxes and the other pieces I would need to buy that trouble me.

Now if Outlaw reduced the cost ( yeah good luck buddy.. LOL ) or produced a version for $499USD that had a phono section and a more simple DSP bypass for analogue sources, I would easily put this unit into a strong 1st. place...


But in ending the best combo from Outlaw today if one has the the cash is the 950/7100 set up be it B stock or not, because for $1500 USD ( B stock ) or $1700USD nothing made in the seperates world even comes close to touching what those two give... My problem is that both of those are just WAAAAY out of my price. I drink BEER and not champagne... LOL


Please do not take offence to my post for being long or for any critisms. I have worked in my recent history in the electronics field and I'll say the 1050 is a nice all around hi-po A/V amp, but its lost much its price advantage that I am sure it had in 2000/2001. I'm done with my rant now and I truly wish Outlaw all the best as its nice to see smaller companies succeed in this world against LARGE CONGLOMORATES.

thanks for hearing me out.

WHAT. You mean I can't drink beer anymore?
(now I own a 950?!!)

just messing with you

You mean the only way to upgrade from a 1050 to a 950/7x0 combo is too stop drinking Champagne and start drinking beer?

I sure hope that isn't the case.

The 1050, as you mentioned has several limitations when compared to other current A/V receivers. As I mentioned before, it all comes down to what your requirements are. Based upon your stated needs the 1050 may not be the best fit for you.

I spent several months doing research and demos. I ended up extremely happy with my decision to get the 1050. There are some things that I wish were different, but it meets my needs and sounds great.

Good luck in your decision.

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** Disclaimer - The above may or may not have any relationship with reality **

The 1050 is an excellent value. I just wanted something better than what I had and something that would pretty much cover the different 5.1's, 6.1's & 7.1's. The processing used by the 1050 is excellent in all modes. It does a decent job even on dts. Try out the eagle's when hell freeze's over dvd. It does an amazing job. The only draw back to the 1050 is the lack of video options. It is a simple matter of buying a video switch box. I highly recommend the 1050. If you pay a low price for all the bells and whistles then where did they cut the cost. In the 1050 they cut it in areas that although nice are not required. The sound of the 1050 is worth the sacrifice of the bell and whistle's provided by others.

take one home...if you don't like it send it back! that's the only way you can tell if you will like it... I LOVE MINE! (1yr later) good luck!

Hi gang. It's been quite a while since I've written anything in this forum. I welcome any comments on this but here is how I see it:

It seems to be human nature to want all the latest options on any given product, but in reality, we rarely use most of them. For the price, the 1050 is still a great deal. It is well built and has power beyond most competitive units that boast a lot more wattage. The sound is excellent (for music as well). For DVD it does both 5.1 and 6.1 very well with nice separation. Set up is easy and the remote is simple to use. For most of us, that's all that is needed.

The main drawbacks I see are that it does not do Pro Logic II (the 1050s PLI is quite effective however), and the remote is not a learning remote. But if DVD is your thing, rather than TV and VHS, then PLII is not such a big deal. And a learning remote is a nice convenience but not a necessity.

So if you need a solid unit with great sound and power, and DVD is your main activity, and you don't care to spend $1000, the 1050 is still a good decision. AND, as folks have said, it has a 30 day return policy.

It all depends on what you want the product to really do for you, given the amount of money you want to pay.

MD

Well, I broke down... and finally purchased a new unit.

Sadly I didn't go with outlaw...

This is what I got. Thanks all for your input. Maybe next one will be from outlaw.

http://www.6ave.com/product.jsp?x=AVR1082

A used 1050 seems to be around $375 and appears to sound comparable or better to all the other $1k or less receivers. So I use the 1050 for my HT needs and have always been happy and am applying the rest of my money on 2-channel. 2-channel preamp, phono, 2-channel amp, TT, DAC, CD. I run center and surrounds into the 1050 as well as a DVD player. This becomes a really affordable HT bolt-on to my music system. I just haven't felt the need to upgrade the 1050 for HT where I'm constantly wanting to tweak the 2-channel.

I find the 1050 simple to operate and the 3803 rather remote oriented and complicated.

Maybe one day I'll update my 1050 to a 950 and Outlaw 5-channel amp but for now I'd rather put that money into a nice external DAC.

I felt I had to jump in once more. I got hold of the Denon 1803 specs, and the more I read it, the more it seems to me that to some degree Denon had Outlaw in their sights when they designed this new(ish) receiver. Consider:

Main "faults" of the 1050; lack of DPL II, no DTS ES, DD EX is proprietary.
Some stengths of the 1050; discrete amplification for each of the six channels, adjustable cross-over points, 5.1 channel inputs, etc.

Guess what? These strong points on the 1050 are all offered on the Denon. Coincidence? The Denon goes on to offer DD EX, DTS ES and DPL II; all things that the 1050 lacks (well, apart from DD EX, kinda). Ladies and Gentlemen, perhaps the "upgrade to the 1050" already exists? :-)

Seriously though, the problem with purchasing the 1050 for me is this. Am I about to spend $500 for a product that arguably had its peak from a HT perspective about two years ago? If I may be able to get a product with similar performance but more current features for the same price, maybe that is enough to supercede the 1050 alone? I've been taking note of various systems on the market, and even the "disposable" $200 HT in a box systems in Target, Wal Mart, et al usually offer DD EX/DPL II. I'm thinking why don't Outlaw do this? It seems to me that economies of scale have come to play for the big guys; they pay Dolby for the "name brand" technology, and can amortize the cost over a line of a dozen or more models and their production volume. Outlaw is stuck with two(?).

The final point that is driving my decision Denon's way is that Tweeter sent me a catalog that has a 1803/Mirage AVS combo package for $1000. I guess I will be heading over there to check that out soon...

“Specs” and “even the "disposable" $200 HT in a box systems in Target, Wal Mart, et al usually offer DD EX/DPL II.”

There is however that last little tiny weenie detail which starts reducing all those seemly limitless features and choices which I tend to stub my toe on.
Sound

AMEN Sister Lena! All the features in the world don't make up for mediocre sound.

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** Disclaimer - The above may or may not have any relationship with reality **

Personally, regardless of how great the 1050 sounds, I can no longer recommend it without adding a caveat that the 1050 has a problem decoding some DVD's that appears to be unique (see the Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets thread). This is especially true for people who are not planning to install a sixth speaker (which eliminates the work around posted in that thread). As I have found out, using the excuse the 1050 sounds better doesn't buy you anything when the kids and spouse point out that other families' systems can play this DVD just fine.

Combining that with the lack of DPL-II support, forces me to conclude that the 1050 is well past its half life as a product and may not be the best available system at its price point.

This is especially true for people who are not planning to install a sixth speaker (which eliminates the work around posted in that thread

Bruin, (you may need to correct me?!...I have never owned a 1050).
The workaround for problem encoded discs was just to [tell] the 1050 you had the 6th speaker, via speaker setup menu (did not need to have one physically).
However you still want to apply the 5.1 S Modes in the encoder ...not the 6.1 which will steer things diffrently.

Lena:

I don't want to repeat the HP thread here, but the creation of a phantom rear surround doesn't work (at least on my 1050) as it goes into 6.1 mode automatically and feeds most of the surround data to a speaker that doesn't exist. I am not the only person with the problem as the thread indicates. While I haven't watched Die another Day on DVD, based on others comments, it may also have a problem.

If someone is watching their pennies, relatively speaking, I would not recommend that they buy the 1050 given what I know today. Six months ago, I would have.

Note: If Outlaw started shipping 1050's with an upgraded processor subsystem such that this problem went away and included PL-II, then I would return to giving the 1050 an endorsement. If they made this availabe to existing 1050 owners (even at some cost) like they did for 950 owners, I would really be enthusiastic.



[This message has been edited by 73Bruin (edited June 13, 2003).]

Bruin's speaking specifically of the Chamber of Secrets disc, which forces Surround 6.1 mode on. Previous problem discs did not enable Surround 6.1.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

Just use 6.1 ....

Seriously, the back surround channel REALLY adds a lot to the experience, unless one absolutely cannot make it work I'd highly recommend giving it a whirl. Problem solved.

As for DPL2, it's (IMO) a bandaid that extends the useful life of 2.0 matrixed surround sources, not really the definition of the cutting edge.

The 1050 has a few warts, but the above are (to me) non issues. DPL2 in particular just seems (mostly) to fill a marketing checkbox.

YMMV.

Charlie: You really need to do your homework and read the other thread before posting a reply. Saying just use 6.1 when it doesn't work with 5 speakers for this particular DVD and possibly others is a non answer. - Problem not solved.

This thread is about whether the 1050 is outdated and since most people with a 1050 have purchased it for its HT capabilties and not, at least entirely, its 2 channel sound qualities, I believe the currency of its HT capabilites for various input sources is more than a check list item. IMO, DPL-II is a definite nice to have if you watch a lot of cable where most things are not broadcast in dolby digital. It also works to enhance VHS tapes. Frankly based upon some of the other threads I have seen about the quality of DTS sound vs Dolby Digital, I would gladly trade the 1050's limited DTS capability for DPL-II.

In summary, the 1050 while sounding great for its price point, has problems playing at least one and possibly more popular DVDs in 5.1. There are no valid workarounds with 5 speakers. None of us know how many more DVDs will be released like this. At least, as far as I can find, these problems appear unique to the 1050 which also lacks the ability to use DPL-II to enhance regular cable. Given this, how can you recommend it, without putting in a ton of caveats?

And we are using 5 speakers ... why are we stuck with 5 speakers?

I was just pointing out that (1) DPL2 is mostly irrelevant to DVD/Movie watching, unless one thinks watching TBS is movie watching and (2) a sixth (or seventh) speaker works out fine for a lot of folks and provides added benefit beyond fixing the 6.1 encoding problem.

I don't watch much TV - maybe I'm atypical, but any TV I happen to watch I just don't get too worked up over 'maximum fidelity'.

Two things:

First, you can use the 1050 just fine with only 5 speakers and a sub. There is a previously stated workaround that works for these problematic DVDs. You just need a DVD player that internally decodes DD or DTS, 6 interconnects, and the direct inputs on the 1050. Yes, it's a little extra, but it works.

Second, comparing DTS and DPLII is kinda like comparing apples and oranges. One encodes disrete channels of information while the other interprets surround channels from existing two channel information. Not having DTS on the 1050 would be a huge, at least from the marketing standpoint, flaw while not having DPLII is not as bad. In other words, you can work around the omission of DPLII without giving up too much.

I just have to point out also that the DVDs the 1050 has trouble with, although maybe popular titles, account for probably less than 1% of all released DVDs.

Just one more thing, I, as a perfectly happy 1050 user, would love to see the 1050 updated. Give me all the surround modes you want to plus twin direct inputs with analog bass management and I think Outlaw would have another winner on their hands. Best of all, it would put an end to this thread.

Charlie and Jason:

I remain in disagreement with both of you.

1) While I would love to go to 7 speakers, I have location/size problems adding additional speakers and a WAF that is limiting this as an option.

2) Charlie, I think there is more to HT movie viewing than just DVD. Specifically, I would find DPL-II useful for many of the digital movie broadcasts on the HBO and Showtime families (19 channels not including HDTV) that are not cablecast in Dolby Digital. Ditto with the 6 other digital movie channels I get on TWC.

3) Jason: Your solution has merit but getting a new DVD player such as a Denon 1600 plus the cables would cost more than a new 1050 and only marginally improve the picture quality that I get with my Panasonic RP-56. I would rather use those funds to go back to separates such as the 950/7100 combination.

Well, if everyone agreed all the time life would be pretty boring. In a nutshell, the 1050 works for me and a lot of others. It's not perfect, could stand an upgrade, but IMO is far from completely obsolete. If a person cares about sonic quality and is more interested in movies than TV it is still a budget contender.

It has real design flaws that (IMO) are more pressing than lacking a few surround modes.

For TV / casual movie (VHS/HBO) use other choices might be better. Personally if MSNBC, Bloomberg, Fox News The History Channel, The Weather Channel etc. are not in full DPL2 surround I don't feel I'm missing a lot....