Yup, it's not what it does with the 5.1 toggle switch set to ON, but what it does when it's set to OFF that's the problem in the design.

It should have gone to a direct to volume control mode and then out the other end.

Besides a potential problem with double bass (due to the LFE channel being blended with all the bass below 80 Hz from the other 5 channels, besides the 5 main speakers getting full frequency information) on 5.1 material, it poses an even greater problem with those DVD-Audio and SACD discs that are mixed with either a full range "heads up, voice of God" channel instead of an LFE channel, or the new way of mixing with no center channel and no LFE channel where those two are routed for use as stereo side channels.

You see the problem with the way the OFF setting on the 5.1 analog input toggle switch is implemented now?

Another BIG reason why OFF should have meant exactly that.

Dan

Doh!!! I'm slow on the uptake and now see what the fuss is about. Thanks for the help. Lot's of variations to try, but even with a non-optimized system, I'm still quite impressed with the new setup.
Jim

Jim, You never lose LFE information, whether the 950's analog bass management is ON or OFF. The LFE (.1) channel is sent from your SACD player to the 950 and then from the 950 to your sub. Nothing lost along the way. At worst, you may get additional bass that you don't want; but not less.

Best,
Sanjay

Actually, there is some information lost using the 6 channel direct. When the subwoofer channel contains information with a frequency over 120 Hz, it is filtered out by a low pass filter on that channel. It isn't redirected anywhere.

The filter works quite well. Before my 950 showed up last week, I hooked up my bass guitar rig, which is full-range, in place of the sub. I had a Kenwood 409 which is a true pass through on the 6 channel direct. I have a DVD-A player but I think the "lack of standardized" mixing exists in both formats. Reviewing the "Toy Matinee" DVD-A a little yielded significant info above the bass. The first track has snare drum early reflection or gated reverb in the "sub" channel.

Bill, Is there a 120Hz low pass filter in the LFE's signal path on the 950's 6-channel analog bypass connection?

Best,
Sanjay

Sanjay,

Yes, there is a 120 hz LPF on the 950 6 Ch direct. I asked Outlaw about it some time ago when I was considering an ICBM for DVD-A use. The ICBM has one too but it is set at 150 hz.

Personally, I think it's a great idea since most users are not likely to have a full range speaker at the subwoofer position in their systems.

I've gone through several of my DVD-As that have high frequency stuff in the sub channel since my 950 arrived and I'm extremely happy with the bass management as well as the LPF. It may not be what the mix engineer totally intends, but it works for me.

Kicking this topic up a notch. I haven't had time to do all the tweaks that were suggested, but I found the following article interesting. What do you all think?
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/feature-article-multiple-crossovers-9-2002.html

Interesting article. I wonder if the concerns he raises about multiple crossovers apply to the 950 and if so, how the Outlaw engineers solved the problem.

I'm currently in a very similar situation to the one he described; i.e. near full-range mains crossed over at 40 Hz. I wonder if I should set them to large, even they aren't quite full-range?

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Before anyone gets too concerned about Florian's comments re multiple crossover points, they ought to read both pages of this thread ; especially the comments by Philip Brandes. Note how Florian's views, re different crossovers for different speaker groups, change by the end of the thread.

Best,
Sanjay

in the cited article, mr. florian talks about "throwing everything between [x-over point of the sub] and 120hz of the lfe channel away." but, just before that, he says that thx has determined that the vast majority of soundtracks contain basically nothing between 80hz and 120hz because of the brick wall at 120hz. so, in reality, you are "throwing away" only between the sub x-over point and 80hz.

as i've said before, the better standard for speaker placement is the itu standard, included in which is the requirement for all 5 speakers to be identical and full range.

having a full range tower on your tv is not practical for ctr. ch so, adding a small sub to the center speaker is a simple solution.
(i'm using an 8", front firing, ported, powered sub with high pass into the center channel amp...cheap 100 watt sub and works nicely). l, r, ls, rs, should be identical and full range.

set all speakers to large, and set the sub x-over to 70hz and dial-in from there. don't trust your speaker man. specs as to low end response. use the autosound disc, but either way, start your sub at 70hz and adjust the x-over and phase from there.

finally, with a test disc and meter, use a parametric eq to tame any bump in response.

this is the best setup and won't have to be tweaked much between HT and multichannel sacd/dvd-a. (unless you buy a chesky disc)

also, don't discount speaker placement and delay settings. small tweaks here yield big results. i tell you, it's worth the effort to set up this way and tweak to perfection. the sacd discs i've mentioned elsewhere in the forum truly sound amazing and i basically need no adjustment to switch to HT other than the phase issue kcb brought up, which i am currently investigating in my setup.

and...multiple x-over settings, summed and sent to the sub DO cause phasing problems that can't easily be dealt with. thx, by the book, or itu, by the book. everything else doesn't work as well. i like itu better...by far, for HT and music, but...you decide.