Hi all,
Longtime lurker, first time poster. Thanks to the unnamed masses who convinced me to get the 950. I just got my 950 this weekend and am delighted with its performance. I don't want to incite any hissy fits , but I actually like the way the 5.1 bass management is implemented in the 950. I realize now how much I was missing while playing SACDs via my Denon 3801 (and Parasound 1205) without the subwoofer.
I have a mongrel assortment of speakers with Fried (an unfortunate name) R/4 mains, Dynaudio Audience C122 center, and Bohlender-Graebener Radia X3 rears and Hsu VTF-3 sub.
I've set the 5 speakers to small with a crossover of 80 Hz on the 950.
Since I didn't want to have to manually turn off the bass management of the 950 when playing SACDs and DVD-As, I set the Sony CD775 SACD player's primitive bass management to 5 large speakers and no subwoofer. My concern was that if I had an LFE output from the SACD I might get the dreaded double bass, especially since the Sony's crossover is fixed at a high 120 Hz. I have to say that I didn't hear much difference when I did have an LFE output set on the SACD player, but didn't really take too much time to really test this out.
Does this set up make sense?
Thanks.

Hi tofufot, Almost. But there's a better way to hook up your SCD-CE775 (BTW, same SACD player I use).

The way you have your SACD player's settings currently (subwoofer OFF), the player is forced to blend the .1 LFE channel with the front two channels of the 5.1 mix. Better to set the player to the 'Direct' mode, so that all 6 channels are sent to the 950 without any bass management or channel combining; let the 950 handle all that.

And don't worry about the double-bass problem. Since you're using the 80Hz crossover, it won't affect you.

Good Luck,
Sanjay

Great and thanks for the quick reply Sanjay.
Jim

hi tofufot,

i was wondering if you could try the scenario sanjay recommended then switch the analog bass management to off (toggle switch on back of the 950 in the down position) and dial the crossover on your vtf-3 to around 45hz and a/b the two scenarios.

i personally think 80hz is too high for a sub setting and if you set the sub lower than that you'll be losing original content below 80 and above the sub setting.

if there is any double bass, it would be there anyway and was therefore intended. this way, the "double bass" as it seems to be referred to, would all be in your sub instead of between the mains and sub.

if you could try the two scenarios and post your findings here, i would greatly appreciate it.

also, any info on your fried r/4's would be equally interesting to me. have they been modded at all or are they original, how old, etc.

what sacd's are you listening to? how do you like the 950 and sacd?

Hi boss,
I'll try your suggestions later in the week, but I did a quick listen after setting the SACD player to direct mode to bypass its internal BM, and it did seem to lower the bass output. I'll need to do a more carefull listening session to be sure.

As for lowering the sub to 45 Hz, I was under the impression that setting the crossover to anything other than 80 Hz would negate the analog bass management for SACD, no? Right now I have the sub crossover set to max (90 Hz) and let the 950 handle the crossover duties.

I got the Frieds from a friend who was moving. I had never heard of the brand before, but turns ouot I was living only a few blocks from their main office in Philadelphia. They still sound wonderful even though they're about 20 years old, no mods. They're a transmission line design and rated at 30 - 20kHz +/- 2 dB and 90 dB sensitivity. Excellent midrange.

The SACDs I have include most of the Alisson Krauss titles which are all really excellent. I'm looking forward to her live recordings, which are supposed to be coming out in SACD and DVD-video later this year. BTW, you can get these cheaper directly from Rounder than I've seen at other online vendors. I'll be getting the Bela Fleck and Jerry Douglas SACDs from Water Lily. I have the redbook of Bela's Tabula Rasa, which is already excellent for CD, can't wait to hear the SACD of that. I've got five of the Stones' newly released and poorly marketed SACD/CDs. Quite impressive, though they really accentuate the inferiority of the recording equipment on the older discs. I've got a few DVD-As that I've gotten to reexperience through my RP-91, and especially like the Bela Fleck Tales from the Acoustic Planet II, although some purists might not like the use of the surrounds for some of the instrumentalists, but you can also listen in stereo. Both are much more musical and precise than the original CD.

I'm by no means a golden eared audiophile, but the 950 through the DACs sounds almost as good as the Denon used as a preamp via the analog bypass. Through the 950's analog bypass music is really more lifelike, especially with the SACDs and DVD-As and some recent well-engineered CDs such as Norah Jones and Nickel Creek.

BTW, in case anyone's keeping score, I have to be about 5 or 6 inches from the speakers to hear a soft hiss at +10 dB in analog mode

I would think that the crossover used more heavily depends on the low freq extension of your mains.

The rule of thumb I have always subscribed to, is to set the crossover 1 full octave higher than the low freq extension of your mains.

So if your mains go down to 30 Hz (20 Hz is really rare, actually), 1 full octave up is 60 Hz.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tofufot:
[B]Hi boss,
As for lowering the sub to 45 Hz, I was under the impression that setting the crossover to anything other than 80 Hz would negate the analog bass management for SACD, no? Right now I have the sub crossover set to max (90 Hz) and let the 950 handle the crossover duties.
___________________________________________

i was suggesting that you disable the bass management (switch in down position). this will allow your speakers to play full range (no x-over) and 45hz, or you might try KCB's suggestion of 60hz setting on your sub's x-over to pick up where your mains leave off.
____________________________________________

I'll be getting the Bela Fleck and Jerry Douglas SACDs from Water Lily. I have the redbook of Bela's Tabula Rasa, which is already excellent for CD, can't wait to hear the SACD of that.
____________________________________________

i didn't know bela was available on sacd. who is water lily? i want those discs. do you know if they are available in multi-channel sacd? i'm no purist. multi-channel is the best use of the format to me.

and thanx for the info!

http://www.waterlilyacoustics.com/main.htm

[This message has been edited by sdurani (edited September 24, 2002).]

Still working on everyone's helpful suggestions, but I got this reply directly from our favorite Outlaw, which confirmed my hunch:
Hello Jim,

Thanks for contacting the Outlaws!

You should just set the bass management to "off" or "large" in the SACD
player. You may leave the LFE turned on. Then turn the bass management on
the multi-channel inputs of the Model 950 "on". This will apply proper
bass management and prevent any possibility of double bass.

Please do not hesitate to let me know if you have any other questions.

Best Regards,

Scott

I assumed, but haven't verified that if I had the 950's bass management turned off that I would lose the LFE output.

As for Water Lily, it's a very eclectic label based in California and specializes in audiophile recordings (click on the tech specs link on the web page Sanjay mentioned) of Eastern and East-West hybrid music. It's definitely not Flecktones stuff, but it's in the same spirit and I find it quite accessible nevertheless. I won't know till I get the recordings but I think they're stereo SACDs.

Jim

If the analog bass management is off, the LFE signal is still passed from your SACD player through the 950 to your amp. Nothing is lost at all.

What the bass management does is move information below 80Hz from the other channels and redirect it to the sub. The design of the six-channel analog input on the 950 has been the subject of a great deal of debate because the 950 *always* redirects information below 80Hz from the five full-range speakers to the sub/LFE channel (adding that information to the information already on the LFE channel), but it leaves that information in the full-range channels if the bass management switch is off. Hence the concerns many people have about "double bass." If the switch is on, the information that is redirected to the sub is removed from the main channels. That's why Scott referred to this arrangement preventing any possibility of double bass.

------------------
gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

[This message has been edited by gonk (edited September 24, 2002).]

Yup, it's not what it does with the 5.1 toggle switch set to ON, but what it does when it's set to OFF that's the problem in the design.

It should have gone to a direct to volume control mode and then out the other end.

Besides a potential problem with double bass (due to the LFE channel being blended with all the bass below 80 Hz from the other 5 channels, besides the 5 main speakers getting full frequency information) on 5.1 material, it poses an even greater problem with those DVD-Audio and SACD discs that are mixed with either a full range "heads up, voice of God" channel instead of an LFE channel, or the new way of mixing with no center channel and no LFE channel where those two are routed for use as stereo side channels.

You see the problem with the way the OFF setting on the 5.1 analog input toggle switch is implemented now?

Another BIG reason why OFF should have meant exactly that.

Dan

Doh!!! I'm slow on the uptake and now see what the fuss is about. Thanks for the help. Lot's of variations to try, but even with a non-optimized system, I'm still quite impressed with the new setup.
Jim

Jim, You never lose LFE information, whether the 950's analog bass management is ON or OFF. The LFE (.1) channel is sent from your SACD player to the 950 and then from the 950 to your sub. Nothing lost along the way. At worst, you may get additional bass that you don't want; but not less.

Best,
Sanjay

Actually, there is some information lost using the 6 channel direct. When the subwoofer channel contains information with a frequency over 120 Hz, it is filtered out by a low pass filter on that channel. It isn't redirected anywhere.

The filter works quite well. Before my 950 showed up last week, I hooked up my bass guitar rig, which is full-range, in place of the sub. I had a Kenwood 409 which is a true pass through on the 6 channel direct. I have a DVD-A player but I think the "lack of standardized" mixing exists in both formats. Reviewing the "Toy Matinee" DVD-A a little yielded significant info above the bass. The first track has snare drum early reflection or gated reverb in the "sub" channel.

Bill, Is there a 120Hz low pass filter in the LFE's signal path on the 950's 6-channel analog bypass connection?

Best,
Sanjay

Sanjay,

Yes, there is a 120 hz LPF on the 950 6 Ch direct. I asked Outlaw about it some time ago when I was considering an ICBM for DVD-A use. The ICBM has one too but it is set at 150 hz.

Personally, I think it's a great idea since most users are not likely to have a full range speaker at the subwoofer position in their systems.

I've gone through several of my DVD-As that have high frequency stuff in the sub channel since my 950 arrived and I'm extremely happy with the bass management as well as the LPF. It may not be what the mix engineer totally intends, but it works for me.

Kicking this topic up a notch. I haven't had time to do all the tweaks that were suggested, but I found the following article interesting. What do you all think?
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/feature-article-multiple-crossovers-9-2002.html

Interesting article. I wonder if the concerns he raises about multiple crossovers apply to the 950 and if so, how the Outlaw engineers solved the problem.

I'm currently in a very similar situation to the one he described; i.e. near full-range mains crossed over at 40 Hz. I wonder if I should set them to large, even they aren't quite full-range?

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Before anyone gets too concerned about Florian's comments re multiple crossover points, they ought to read both pages of this thread ; especially the comments by Philip Brandes. Note how Florian's views, re different crossovers for different speaker groups, change by the end of the thread.

Best,
Sanjay

in the cited article, mr. florian talks about "throwing everything between [x-over point of the sub] and 120hz of the lfe channel away." but, just before that, he says that thx has determined that the vast majority of soundtracks contain basically nothing between 80hz and 120hz because of the brick wall at 120hz. so, in reality, you are "throwing away" only between the sub x-over point and 80hz.

as i've said before, the better standard for speaker placement is the itu standard, included in which is the requirement for all 5 speakers to be identical and full range.

having a full range tower on your tv is not practical for ctr. ch so, adding a small sub to the center speaker is a simple solution.
(i'm using an 8", front firing, ported, powered sub with high pass into the center channel amp...cheap 100 watt sub and works nicely). l, r, ls, rs, should be identical and full range.

set all speakers to large, and set the sub x-over to 70hz and dial-in from there. don't trust your speaker man. specs as to low end response. use the autosound disc, but either way, start your sub at 70hz and adjust the x-over and phase from there.

finally, with a test disc and meter, use a parametric eq to tame any bump in response.

this is the best setup and won't have to be tweaked much between HT and multichannel sacd/dvd-a. (unless you buy a chesky disc)

also, don't discount speaker placement and delay settings. small tweaks here yield big results. i tell you, it's worth the effort to set up this way and tweak to perfection. the sacd discs i've mentioned elsewhere in the forum truly sound amazing and i basically need no adjustment to switch to HT other than the phase issue kcb brought up, which i am currently investigating in my setup.

and...multiple x-over settings, summed and sent to the sub DO cause phasing problems that can't easily be dealt with. thx, by the book, or itu, by the book. everything else doesn't work as well. i like itu better...by far, for HT and music, but...you decide.