Charlie - thanks for the input, but these belong in the "other" thread.

"Exactly. You'd think a preamp at twice the price could at least do that well". -

unless you've had a 950 in your sytem (and excuse me if you have), how would you know?

"It's starting to look like the Outlaws may have cut a few too many corners and managed to produce a quality assurance nightmare." -

geeze wheres the balance/perspective
Charlie, I've seen as many (probably more) POSITIVE reviews/posts on the 950 as negative. And this is meaningful, as generally more people complain bought something being wrong that right. Hence, a "nightmare" would be if the negative posts outnumbered the positives.

Maybe Outlaw can use the Atlantic Tech spec parts, partially or totally, to improve things."

See #1/ditto for the Atlantic Tech in YOUR home.

"If this is in fact the case and they are just having unit to unit variations."

Likley, and I think electronics are like sports for guys (me at least), as good as my 950 sounds to me, I still was sweating the hiss, even enough to complain some. Sports - the Raiders are my lifelong favorite team, and even at 3-0, I still complain /sweat the bad stuff.

I'm gonna cut the Outlaws some slack. Its a new unit, they had some issues (what new pre/pro hasnt), been very responsive to everyone/crap they CALL YOU at home/(bet your dealer never done that), and most importantly, the point of my thread was to discuss good/benifical news./(or better yet take your threadfart somewhere else).

I've solved my hiss/its well out of ear shot now. Lowering the gain 1/4 and recab with RS meter, its now ear to tweeter to bought 1 foot at +10 volume.

Not sure if juice bar added much yet/need to listen for awhile.

I still am getting a bit of a "buzz"/hiss as above in 5 channel stereo mode though. Anyone got any thoughts? No buzz in straight 2 channel stereo, just 5.

Davis S: I don't know how closely you've been following the various threads on the hiss issue, but it is a very real problem for a lot of people, including myself. Your fix is exactly the method I recommended awhile back to people who have gain controls on their power amps, but unfortunately a lot of amps don't have level controls, thus the people are stuck. It is really unreasonable to have audible hiss from more than a foot or so from the speaker in _any_ electronic component at normal gain settings. More to the point, I've personally made measurements on my 950 and that of another owner, and neither of the units met their published spec for noise, no matter how you cut it. A recent test in Sound & Vision magazine had similar test results. On top of that, there appears to be an unacceptably large variation in noise behavior between various units. The difference in noise between my 950 and the other one shocked even me (his was worse), especially given that they were both of very recent production. Your issue with the 'stereo 5' mode as opposed to the other modes is yet another variation that I've not heard of yet. I'm glad you found a fix you can live with, but unfortunatiely it's not so easy for a lot of people to get around this issue.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 05, 2002).]

Soundhound - agree, cept from what I believe I'm learing is that there are a lot of system intergration variables at work also.
So this statement "It is really unreasonable to have audible hiss from more than a foot or so from the speaker in _any_ electronic component at normal gain settings" is maybe not entirely true. As a consumer its what we want, but in our complex set-ups, with all the other variables included (Im guessing here) its not always going to happen. Just my guess/like your statement is a lot of consumers wish/guesses.

Me, I've got 4 dimmers, fridge, ceiling fan, etc in the same room/sharing same electrical as my system. Cable TV also.

Agree hiss is real, agree that its different in/varies amongst systems, except I now expect that. A small level of hiss seems inevitable, and in each of our homes/systems its likely to "measure" different.

I said above, if its audible above listening to source material, its a problem that Scott/Mike seem more than willing to work with us on. Just seems like if we are all looking for the holy grail (absolute silence/no hiss), we are not going to find it here/or with a lot of other equip.

How are you taking your measurements. Mine, only when I place my RS meter against my tweeter, at +10 does the needle even move. In my normal set-up position (40 inches out), and as I move in closer, needle dosent budge. What am I doing wrong?

People with amps with no gains/if their hissing to much, keep talking/working with the Outlaws. Whats the S/N on those amps, ie how much is amp contributing here.

My 5 channel stereo issuse is strange. Not really a buzz actually/more of a whistle. I plan on unhooking all components/and work backward to find it. If its there with just the amp, speakers, and 950, than 950 may be at fault. Will post back.

Care to weigh in on soundhounds dismal measured signal to noise ratio on 2 of 2 examples? How is this, and the big variation between samples, not a QA problem?

I really disagree, as there have been many, many preamps from various companies, and in all price ranges that ARE quiet. It is _not_ impossible to engineer a component, the complexity notwithstanding, that meets it's published specifications. Consumers should be able to rely on what manufacturers publish, to make purchasing decisions, otherwise we are back to things like the "wattage wars" of the late 60's and 70's before the federal trade commision chimed in. The 950 still has a problem with noise. I'm afraid that is a fact that many are experiencing.

By the way, the noise measurements were made with a lab AC decibel/voltage meter, and no, they are not subject to power line hash. I've been making measurements such as this for almost 35 years, and I think I've picked up the protocol by now.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 05, 2002).]

Charlie and Soundhound - fine, but take your negatives/theroy/expertise yada yada to the "analog introduces hiss thread" please. I was hoping to start a construtive/positive dialog for those with open minds and desire to "be happy" with their units. You too seem to scientific with your high end meters and stuff. Thats just not me/I "listen" with my ears/ not what some meter is yaping at me. By the way, you sure the batteries in your meter are good??

Sorry to dissapoint you, but I work professionally in the motion picture music industry, and I do my share of very critical listening. Sometimes meters are a handy tool to sort things out that would take a lot longer to do otherwise.

My meter is run off of 120v line current. What do you think I use, some RadioShack multimeter??

By the way, you can always start your own thread, and I promise I'll stay out, I can't control Charlie, however. (-;


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 05, 2002).]

many higher end prepros exhibit audible hiss. most simply mute it. scott pointed this out in his post (see: analog introduces hiss?, page 1).

many times in the studio, a single coil guitar would ooze unwanted noise. it was simply gated. no one would ever say to get rid of that noisy guitar, because the guitar sounded too good otherwise. end of problem...dead quiet between playing times.

to be honest, if i heard hiss during playback, i would send the 950 back...period.
since i don't (hiss is at 30" with ear to tweeter, not audible otherwise) i am fine with my situation. if i heard hiss during pauses or dead spots, and it offended me, i would consider gating my preamp because the 950 is worth keeping for it's sound/cost.

I'm aware of the muting situation - but just because a higher priced unit hisses, doesn't make it right to not meet spec. I have to wonder what _they_ state as a noise specification.

Anyway, I'm glad you don't experience hiss that bothers you. The 950 _is_ a real bargain, and sounds pretty good to me aside from the hiss. I had to unfortunately relagate mine to secondary switching duty because of the noise, and use my older Sony EP9ES for soundtracks.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 05, 2002).]

if you hear hiss at the listening position, without straining to purposely hear it, send it back. if you don't, keep it.

meeting specs is something this industry as a whole has never done. speaker response numbers, wattage numbers, thd numbers, jitter and dither numbers are all routinely rigged to be misleading and, in some cases, downright false.

i have to disagree that "many, many, preamps are quiet". a muted preamp isn't quiet...it's muted. plenty of other prepros hiss. i don't mean preamps, i mean prepros with the options built into the 950 having 5 or more sources plugged into them and driving kilowatt, all in one amps that have no freakin volume controls (whoever thought that one up?)

i doubt many prepros could pass the tests against specs that are posted in this forum. i also doubt that many, many of them at all price points are quiet.