Just to try something different I've spent some free time the last couple of days searching "hiss" at Audio Asylum(tweakers/DIY forum, general forum, and preamp/amp forum) and the PS Audio Power Forum.

All I can say is I've learned a hell of a lot about hiss, and to my suprise how often a lot systems have it (some just louder than others), how some very expensive pre amps and amps have it (Classe, Bryston, Lex, yada!!), to some extent what causes it (from less expensive parts (I/C's?), to faulty cables, to high gain amps, to tubes, etc).

My suggestion to anyone who is "stressing" over hiss that CANNOT be heard over source material, or from < than 1 maybe 2 feet away AT NORMAL listening levels (not yelling/just being exact), go and search these forums actually for some enlightning reading. If you hear hiss over your source, even during soft passages from your seating/listening area, work with Scott/Mike for a replacement.

A request to anyone who can try this for me: on CD input (or any analog input)/no source playing, select 5 channel stereo as output and at normal level/than at +10 and what do you hear. I'm getting hiss plus some funky ringing noise from my center channel.At plus 10 not a pleasent sound at all. Thanks

Here's a 'data point':

On my Outlaw 1050 receiver -

Volume set to '30' (normal listening level for me) digital input - silence.

Volume set to '30' (normal listening level for me) analog input - silence.

Volume set to '60' (way too loud listening level for me) digital input - silence.

Volume set to '60' (way too loud listening level for me) analog input - nearly silent. Must be within inches to hear a very quiet hiss.

I suggested the "high gain amp" theory before. My Parasound needs 1.2V input for full power output at maximum gain settings. The 950 puts out 6.3V max, but S/N for the 950 is taken at a much lower output. By turning the Parasound gain pots down to about 1/2 of max and setting all 950 trims to 0, I have a very loud output at +5 on the 950. Normal listening is at -10 on the 950. In all cases, hiss is not heard from more than about 2 inches from the tweeters.

When I turn the gain pots on the Parasound all the way up, hiss is noticable in the system from about 3 feet away at all volume levels. At these amp settings, I can only listen below about -15 on the 950, any louder and my ears would bleed. Yet the hiss is present. This leads me to think that the amp must be matched to the 950. Just turn down the amp's gain (if possible).

willscary

Don't know why this didn't click with me before. I use an older Parasound (HCA-800, bridged to mono) on my surround back channel. When I first got it last year, I had the gain turned up very high and got some noticeable hiss from my surround back (this was when I had a 1050 as my pre/pro). It wasn't noticeable during listening, but when there was no signal and I walked into the rear of the room I could notice it. When I set up the 950, I pulled the gain down on the Parasound, which effectively eliminated the hiss from that speaker (not counting hiss very near the speaker). The other channels (driven by a 750) did not exhibit this hiss with either the 1050 or the 950.

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gonk -- Saloon Links | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | 950 Review

That's the real trick isn't it - figuring out what level to assign as 'zero'. I wonder how the voltage gain (wide open) on the 950 compares to the competition. I also wonder what 0db was for soundhounds noise measurements.

I measured the noise on the 950 with the trims at "0" and the main volume knob at "00", with the inut on 'analog', and _not_ in the bypass mode The noise measurements are referenced to .775v, which is acknowledged as "zero db" in engineering terms. If Outlaw referenced the 1.5 volts they state as 'reference level' in the owner's manual, then you would add 5.73db to my measurements. If they referenced 2.0 volts, then you would add 8.23db to my measurements. If they were _really_ stretching the truth and referenced the maximum output level of the 950 which is 6.3 volts, then you could add 18.2db to my measurements.

I prefer to _not_ play with the numbers and use .775v as a hard, fast reference, not open to any intrepretation. In other words, if it hisses like a duck at this reference, then it is indeed a hissy duck.

Thanks Charlie. I think based on Charlie's data points, his Outlaw 1050 receiver does not have a hiss.

"I prefer to _not_ play with the numbers and use .775v as a hard, fast reference, not open to any intrepretation. In other words, if it hisses like a duck at this reference, then it is indeed a hissy duck."

Why is it always so sceintific? My point (which I did'nt state very clearly - hoping some would take a more "what ya hearing" approach and go do some of the searching I did) is does your hiss impact what ya hearing? I even find some "stuff" spewing some BENEFITS of hiss (ala the tube/vinyl lover crowd)vs an extreme clean/low/no noise floor. Dont know what I'm trying to say here cept today was somewhat slow at work/had time to search and it was eye (or ear) opening.

Im trying sumthin new tonight. Bought a PS Audio Juice Bar (no surge/no filtering), plugging into my PS Audio Ultimate Outlet. I dont expect less hiss, but maybe some more detail, bigger stage, more punch. My Parasound 2205 Amp seemed to benefit from the Ultimate Outlet awhile back, and this allows me to somewhat expand its benefits to 6 pieces.

Tonight I'm going to try the gain reduction mentioned, as my 2205 have always been at max. Well see/hear later.

A promising result (preliminary):

First time I've tried this (dont know why), just reduced the gains by 25% on my amp, knocked up the channels a notch, and heard what I think was a postive reduction in hiss. Need to recalb with RS meter, and spend, put the 5 year old to bed, and spend some time with some vinyl and cd's, as well as DVD to see if I'm losing too much juice. On the Yankee/Angel game didnt feel need to even turn volumn up to hear, watched at -30 before/after, and sounds same with gains down.

Could it be, us with "gain controls" need to play around with reductions and hiss issues may be positively reduced/possibly resolved?

One thought is how many have the Parasound w/gain vs the Outlaw, Rotel, Sherebourn etc. Just a thought/denfinitely worth a try. By Sunday, I'll have gone through stuff (plus hopefully watched the Raiduhs pound on the Bills) and for me, put my hiss to rest.

Exactly. You'd think a preamp at twice the price could at least do that well. It's starting to look like the Outlaws may have cut a few too many corners and managed to produce a quality assurance nightmare.

Maybe Outlaw can use the Atlantic Tech spec parts, partially or totally, to improve things. If this is in fact the case and they are just having unit to unit variations.

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited October 05, 2002).]

Charlie - thanks for the input, but these belong in the "other" thread.

"Exactly. You'd think a preamp at twice the price could at least do that well". -

unless you've had a 950 in your sytem (and excuse me if you have), how would you know?

"It's starting to look like the Outlaws may have cut a few too many corners and managed to produce a quality assurance nightmare." -

geeze wheres the balance/perspective
Charlie, I've seen as many (probably more) POSITIVE reviews/posts on the 950 as negative. And this is meaningful, as generally more people complain bought something being wrong that right. Hence, a "nightmare" would be if the negative posts outnumbered the positives.

Maybe Outlaw can use the Atlantic Tech spec parts, partially or totally, to improve things."

See #1/ditto for the Atlantic Tech in YOUR home.

"If this is in fact the case and they are just having unit to unit variations."

Likley, and I think electronics are like sports for guys (me at least), as good as my 950 sounds to me, I still was sweating the hiss, even enough to complain some. Sports - the Raiders are my lifelong favorite team, and even at 3-0, I still complain /sweat the bad stuff.

I'm gonna cut the Outlaws some slack. Its a new unit, they had some issues (what new pre/pro hasnt), been very responsive to everyone/crap they CALL YOU at home/(bet your dealer never done that), and most importantly, the point of my thread was to discuss good/benifical news./(or better yet take your threadfart somewhere else).

I've solved my hiss/its well out of ear shot now. Lowering the gain 1/4 and recab with RS meter, its now ear to tweeter to bought 1 foot at +10 volume.

Not sure if juice bar added much yet/need to listen for awhile.

I still am getting a bit of a "buzz"/hiss as above in 5 channel stereo mode though. Anyone got any thoughts? No buzz in straight 2 channel stereo, just 5.

Davis S: I don't know how closely you've been following the various threads on the hiss issue, but it is a very real problem for a lot of people, including myself. Your fix is exactly the method I recommended awhile back to people who have gain controls on their power amps, but unfortunately a lot of amps don't have level controls, thus the people are stuck. It is really unreasonable to have audible hiss from more than a foot or so from the speaker in _any_ electronic component at normal gain settings. More to the point, I've personally made measurements on my 950 and that of another owner, and neither of the units met their published spec for noise, no matter how you cut it. A recent test in Sound & Vision magazine had similar test results. On top of that, there appears to be an unacceptably large variation in noise behavior between various units. The difference in noise between my 950 and the other one shocked even me (his was worse), especially given that they were both of very recent production. Your issue with the 'stereo 5' mode as opposed to the other modes is yet another variation that I've not heard of yet. I'm glad you found a fix you can live with, but unfortunatiely it's not so easy for a lot of people to get around this issue.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 05, 2002).]

Soundhound - agree, cept from what I believe I'm learing is that there are a lot of system intergration variables at work also.
So this statement "It is really unreasonable to have audible hiss from more than a foot or so from the speaker in _any_ electronic component at normal gain settings" is maybe not entirely true. As a consumer its what we want, but in our complex set-ups, with all the other variables included (Im guessing here) its not always going to happen. Just my guess/like your statement is a lot of consumers wish/guesses.

Me, I've got 4 dimmers, fridge, ceiling fan, etc in the same room/sharing same electrical as my system. Cable TV also.

Agree hiss is real, agree that its different in/varies amongst systems, except I now expect that. A small level of hiss seems inevitable, and in each of our homes/systems its likely to "measure" different.

I said above, if its audible above listening to source material, its a problem that Scott/Mike seem more than willing to work with us on. Just seems like if we are all looking for the holy grail (absolute silence/no hiss), we are not going to find it here/or with a lot of other equip.

How are you taking your measurements. Mine, only when I place my RS meter against my tweeter, at +10 does the needle even move. In my normal set-up position (40 inches out), and as I move in closer, needle dosent budge. What am I doing wrong?

People with amps with no gains/if their hissing to much, keep talking/working with the Outlaws. Whats the S/N on those amps, ie how much is amp contributing here.

My 5 channel stereo issuse is strange. Not really a buzz actually/more of a whistle. I plan on unhooking all components/and work backward to find it. If its there with just the amp, speakers, and 950, than 950 may be at fault. Will post back.

Care to weigh in on soundhounds dismal measured signal to noise ratio on 2 of 2 examples? How is this, and the big variation between samples, not a QA problem?

I really disagree, as there have been many, many preamps from various companies, and in all price ranges that ARE quiet. It is _not_ impossible to engineer a component, the complexity notwithstanding, that meets it's published specifications. Consumers should be able to rely on what manufacturers publish, to make purchasing decisions, otherwise we are back to things like the "wattage wars" of the late 60's and 70's before the federal trade commision chimed in. The 950 still has a problem with noise. I'm afraid that is a fact that many are experiencing.

By the way, the noise measurements were made with a lab AC decibel/voltage meter, and no, they are not subject to power line hash. I've been making measurements such as this for almost 35 years, and I think I've picked up the protocol by now.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 05, 2002).]

Charlie and Soundhound - fine, but take your negatives/theroy/expertise yada yada to the "analog introduces hiss thread" please. I was hoping to start a construtive/positive dialog for those with open minds and desire to "be happy" with their units. You too seem to scientific with your high end meters and stuff. Thats just not me/I "listen" with my ears/ not what some meter is yaping at me. By the way, you sure the batteries in your meter are good??

Sorry to dissapoint you, but I work professionally in the motion picture music industry, and I do my share of very critical listening. Sometimes meters are a handy tool to sort things out that would take a lot longer to do otherwise.

My meter is run off of 120v line current. What do you think I use, some RadioShack multimeter??

By the way, you can always start your own thread, and I promise I'll stay out, I can't control Charlie, however. (-;


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 05, 2002).]

many higher end prepros exhibit audible hiss. most simply mute it. scott pointed this out in his post (see: analog introduces hiss?, page 1).

many times in the studio, a single coil guitar would ooze unwanted noise. it was simply gated. no one would ever say to get rid of that noisy guitar, because the guitar sounded too good otherwise. end of problem...dead quiet between playing times.

to be honest, if i heard hiss during playback, i would send the 950 back...period.
since i don't (hiss is at 30" with ear to tweeter, not audible otherwise) i am fine with my situation. if i heard hiss during pauses or dead spots, and it offended me, i would consider gating my preamp because the 950 is worth keeping for it's sound/cost.

I'm aware of the muting situation - but just because a higher priced unit hisses, doesn't make it right to not meet spec. I have to wonder what _they_ state as a noise specification.

Anyway, I'm glad you don't experience hiss that bothers you. The 950 _is_ a real bargain, and sounds pretty good to me aside from the hiss. I had to unfortunately relagate mine to secondary switching duty because of the noise, and use my older Sony EP9ES for soundtracks.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 05, 2002).]

if you hear hiss at the listening position, without straining to purposely hear it, send it back. if you don't, keep it.

meeting specs is something this industry as a whole has never done. speaker response numbers, wattage numbers, thd numbers, jitter and dither numbers are all routinely rigged to be misleading and, in some cases, downright false.

i have to disagree that "many, many, preamps are quiet". a muted preamp isn't quiet...it's muted. plenty of other prepros hiss. i don't mean preamps, i mean prepros with the options built into the 950 having 5 or more sources plugged into them and driving kilowatt, all in one amps that have no freakin volume controls (whoever thought that one up?)

i doubt many prepros could pass the tests against specs that are posted in this forum. i also doubt that many, many of them at all price points are quiet.

Well, then again, if more than a few people were'nt noticing abnormal hiss, these threads would not exist. Myself, I don't have _any_ other piece of equipment (including a sony pre/pro) that is as noisy as the 950 (and it does _not_ mute in absence of signal). I really wish it were'nt so, but since it is the case, I have tried to support the finding with measured results, hoping Outlaw would get the message and fix the bloody problem, and it _is_ a problem. Home theatre is confusing enough for the average user without having to put up with inaccurate specifications, and assurances that 'they all do it' Sorry, to that I say "Bull****" Fix the problem, and there will be no complaints. Simple concept.

My current take on the 950 is that there appears to be variations among units, huge variations.

We have units that hiss loudly, units that are virtually dead silent, and all hisses in between. We have units that sound great for music and others that sound flat and dull and others that are bright, lean, with no warmth. We have units that can be at max volume and not clip the amps and others that are plenty loud at -20dB on the volume control.

Sure, everyone has different systems and different opinions, but could people's opinion vary any more than we have seen with the 950?

I am guessing that there is some sort of correlation here. Maybe those units that are hissy, also are louder, more dynamic, more exciting, less warm, and deemed very accurate. Other units that have less hiss, are considered flat for music. I haven't gone through the smattering of opinions to see if this correlation actually exists, but it could be there.

The bigger questions are 1) is there really these huge unit-to-unit variations? and 2) is this the results of QA, part tolerances, or the band-aids used to combat the hiss problem? Makes you wonder if you exchange your 950 for hiss, what you will get with the replacement - could be a totally different animal.

Or as I said before - people tend to complain bought most everthing, hence a lot of stuff gets blown out. Case in point, my VW Passat / and German cars in general are known to have little/quirky gremlins - dashboards that on occasion rattle, and you should see the number of complaints on the VW B5.com forum on this rattle. Owned mine for 1.5 yrs now/its rattled a couple of times, but on the forum you'd think there a major q&a issue because of it.

How many actual (on-going) problems can we count on the 950.
1)hiss
2)composite up-conversion (think other pre-pros have it to)
3)I'm out of thoughts here. Bueller/Anyone??

Soundhound - I totally respect you, your measurements, and your profession (actually kind of jealous/just a boring Budget guy myself). I guess my point in "listening with my ears" was that isn't that what most of us really do at home. I'm as anal as anyone with my system, but at the end of the day its my ears/not a professional grade sound meter telling me if its sounding good.

Agree with bossobass too, if we could count how much equip "dosent meet specs", and didnt buy it cause of it, crap, my boombox would be in my room.

Bottomline is the 950 aint perfect, but I'm a firm beliver in the big picture, and with our systems there are many variables to account for in making things right. The sum of all the parts is way greater than the 950 alone. For some, the 950 just aint making the grade in their environment and maybe its time to move on. For others/(specifically me from my original point in this post), I've worked on it and believe I've got it.

Just need to fiqure out whats up with 5 channel stereo mode. Anybody else get a weird whistle/noise in this mode?

Generally, noises of this type are caused by some type of digital leakage/defect like some clocking signal beating with some other clock signal of a different frequency. The whistling you hear is not normal, or at least I've not noticed it in my admittedly limited use of that mode. If it really bothers you, you can always 'roll the dice' and request another 950 from the Outlaws.

It sure seems like that is the case.



Well, strictly speaking QA wouldn't actually cause this issue, but it would be their job as final arbiters of what's 'good enough to ship' to assure this sort of thing not happen. I'm really wondering (at risk of being ridiculed again) if this might not be a reason behind some clone makers (claims) to be substituting a few higher quality / tighter tolerence parts.

Obviously this would be a real nightmare for QA, since they are responsable for making sure bad units don't happen, but the final blame would be shared with engineering and/or manufacturing. Marketing often plays a big role too, as they often exert a lot of pressure to ship the item in question without due care to ensure engineering, manufacturing and quality assurance are comfortable with the 'good to go' status.

Nah, are you saying that marketing types would knowingly engage in "controlled lieing"??


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 06, 2002).]

It wont bother me at all, as I dont use that mode for anything anyway. I use to use it on my Denon AVR 3200, alot for that matter, but now find PL II and DTS Neo to be to my liking for DVD's that have poorer DD sound.

Hi guys,
I have one of the pre-amps that hiss badly and I believe has an s-video problem.

Here is my humble take.
Normal I would go much higher end than the Outlaw. For $900 (if there werent any problems) the Outlaw would be a steal. However, personally I am surprised that no one has ever mentioned a small thing that I picked up in one of the first posts when the first hiss issue in March was developing. It was stated that the manufacturer supplimented a new part. That concerned me because that will imply that Outlaw will have a hugh QA problem since they dont have a plant that appears to be following their design specs to the letter.
I may be out of line, but David S your remarks and attitude are not constructive. We all know that most of the Outlaw may not have a hiss isuue, but you have to realize that when we start claiming the 950 can beat amps more than 3x its price it must be expected to be treated like a amp that is woth $3000 and not $899. If I was at a dealer showing me a $3000 amp hissed like mine I would think he was crazy.

It is not a slight hiss issue I have having. In HT mode when I have my CRT projector on I can be forgiving. However when I am listing to music and my other equipment are silent, that is different.

This is serious, otherwise the 950 will just be $899 pre-amp, which most guys like myself would not have even entertained looking at.

This is my humble opinion.

Thanks,
clopez

You are quite right that meters have lousy musical taste, and not much better taste in movies (but I guess Hollywood doesn't display much taste in movies either)...Anyway, Look at it this way. Measurements are only a tool to help dig out problems when they are suspected - they give hard numbers that can point to a resolution of a problem: comparasons can be made objectively on things like noise. Otherwise a lot of time can be wasted on guesswork. As a finance guy, do you _guess_ how much money is coming in or going out? (I'm assuming you don't work for Enron) No, numbers do that. Measurements have nothing to do with musical judgements, or sound quality ones either - I don't listen to my meters about music, and they don't listen to me about numbers. We co-exist.


[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 06, 2002).]

Actually I think that may be the definition of marketing...

"I may be out of line, but David S your remarks and attitude are not constructive"

Your statement is BS/my atitude is fine and my intent was an attempt to be most construtive. AGAIN, there are several other posts for you and others who have an ax/a problem/ or just tend to be a pain in the ass most of your time, so go over there and post your dribble. My focus is on whats RIGHT on the unit, yours is not. Now go away cause you really have pissed me off!!

"but you have to realize that when we start claiming the 950 can beat amps more than 3x its price it must be expected to be treated like a amp that is woth $3000 and not $899. If I was at a dealer showing me a $3000 amp hissed like mine I would think he was crazy."

Dude, you sound so gullable. 1) do you believe everthing you read, or do you EVEN attempt to find out for yourself. 2) take a course in Marketing at the local JC, maybe you can learn something, and freeking most importantly 3) re-read my FIRST post, do a freeking search yourself, and learn that these so called high-end 3,000+ freeking pieces also have the potential to hiss. Read, you can read cant you. Damn, I'm glad the Raiders kicked the crap out of the Bills today, or I might have come off as pissed here:>

"This is serious, otherwise the 950 will just be $899 pre-amp, which most guys like myself would not have even entertained looking at."

I've gotta extra $50 that says "most guys" would entertain looking at the 950.

sh: when i was young and my tech pulled out his rta and spl meters, i chided him. i too, claimed that it only mattered that it sound good to my ears and no meter could better that.

i have since apologized to him (he now owns a rather large light and sound company). they are great tools, and necessary to cut to the quick and can also find some little thing your ear just can't point to.

having a go-to guy who has the right tools and knows how to use them is is a valuable thing...in any profession. it allows guys like me to speak our opinions with some authority. some times you have to fly in the face of theory and numbers, but most times, math don't lie.

i'm glad you're available here.

DavidS: Re. Whistle...

I've got something that isn't really a whistle but more of a "motorboat" sound that starts at a high frequency ahd ramps down, eventually sounding like a wind storm. Not really hiss, and louder than most people say their hiss is. It only happens in digital mode and although I can reproduce it, I haven't found the right procedure yet (and have yet to spend a lot of time on it). It happens when I'm in a digital mode and either stop DVD playback (HTPC with TheaterTek) or exit the player. If I had to guess at what the sound is I'd say it's the sound of a PLL clock trying to hunt for the incoming signal's recovered clock. I'll have to put a scope on the coax to see if there's a source there or not when it happens.

This problem never happens when I've got an active source so I'm not too worried about it. When I do have a source and the material has silence in it, I do hear a hiss but I have to be 4ft from the speaker to hear it and don't expect *anything* to be any better than this.

The other thing (while I'm at it) is that the digital input is so darned sensitive to other stuff turning on or off in the house. I've got all my audio gear on a dedicated line but I still lose sync (and therefore sound) for a couple of seconds whenever the TV turns on or the air conditioner turns off.

I don't mean to bitch, I'm a happy camper, but there seems to be a few "issues" outstanding.

Cary

Cary, have you measured the AC voltage coming out of your outlets? Sounds like it may be a bit borderline/low, and the 950s power supply might be dropping out of regulation as the voltage dips even more for an instant when the air conditioning etc comes on. I actually have this problem myself, but with my audio workstation, and I lose clock and therefore sync with picture for an instant, but that's enough to screw me up if I'm doing a layback or something. I finally cured the problem by putting a variac in line between the wall outlet and my workstation. I adjust the output of the variac to exactly 120 VAC, and then even when I get a dip from my air conditioner coming on, the output of the variac does not dip enough to cause problems downstream. Generally most electronic equipment is stable down to around 100 VAC, but there are of course variances to this. Computers seems very hardy against power surges or brownouts no doubt due to the autoranging/switching power supplies in some of them. Hope some of this info helps.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 07, 2002).]

Soundhound, good call, thanks! I didn't think of low voltage, I was thinking more of a ground level "upset". I will definitely check this tonight. I might even know where I can get a variac just in case. Thanks.

Cary

Cary & Sounhound:

Thanks for some feedback/and a more positive spin to this thread.

David S,

You said,



I guess you should follow your own advice, because you don't have a clue what is going on with the marketing or manufacturing issues that are causing the hiss issues and nothing you are contributing in this thread is moving things forward. Why don't you butt-out while we try to isolate the problems, your commets are not helpfull at all.

Yes, I have specific experience (VP) with developing, manufacturing and marketing Taiwan products (Ethernet switches) for the US. By the way, manufacturing quality (i.e. parts substitution without authorization) is a big problem in Taiwan manufacturing.

[This message has been edited by bstan (edited October 07, 2002).]

Look - I started this thread, not you. Just because I approached this whole hiss thing from another perspective, and NEVER did I say it did not exist, your telling me to butt out. I assure you I will not, and as I have stated several times in MY thread, YOU "butt-out"/use the other thread for your "problems/negatives", and dont be such an a-hole!

Hey - do I need to split you two up?!?!?

[Just a joke!]

Seriously, JGB, I'm pretty sure 'bstan' was aiming those comments to 'Davis[d] S' and not you.

I think almost everyone here has tried to be civil and it is a tribute to the lack of moderation and caliber of the participants.

Charlie - JGB = Davis S (from work and home), and I apologize for being an a-hole myself, just gettin testy when being told to butt-out/non constructive/and basically ignorant in my own thread.

Just seems if any attempt to "fix"/improve the hiss (outside of Outlaw starting over from scratch) is not an option to a lot of people. I'm just not that scientific, and outside of using my sound meter at set up and periodic checks, I just listen. Maybe I'm deaf, saw well over 100 Grateful Dead concerts over 15 years, probably affected my hearing.

I'am happy to report that MY fixes have worked in MY system. Spent the weekend with gains lowered/PS Audio Juice Bar new to my set-up, and am very pleased with the result.

Hiss at normal listening levels (-15 to -30) is pretty much now ear to tweeter, and at +10 I'd say its within a foot/probably less. CC still hisses the most, although not even sure if thats accurate as CC tweeter is at stand up ear level. From my couch, no hiss is heard at all.

I guess I should just leave this thread now and let any and all naysayers gobble it all up:>

I hate it when that happens

Personally I think as long as it stays civil there is always potential for constructive discussion. If everyone always agreed nothing would get resolved.

As I re-read the title of my thread, I realized that maybe the term "thingy" conveyed to some that I felt this hiss issue is a non-issue, overblown, etc.

Let me just say that this was not my objective, and I do realize the 950 hiss exists, and in some systems is an big issue. It was for me, I'm on my third 950, and lowering the gains on the first 2, would not have reduced their hiss enough. My third 950 arrived with much lower hiss, and my gain reduction seems to have solved it.

Titles kinda like that e-mail post hittin send, doh, did I really say that to him??

Were either of your other two units 'red dot' units?

No - first was my original in May. #2 was a late June unit, which I believe was prior to the stoppage. #1 and #2 had no difference in the amount of hiss. #3 is red-dot unit.

Like you, I've cycled through a few 950's. While there were hiss differences, they sure were subtle with mine. My current 950, with the red dot, does not hiss much differently than the 950's I had before. That's my experience, for what it's worth.

Soundhound measured the noise in my red dot, and says it is much noiser (hissier) than his red dot 950.

There seem to be variations, in the red dots. Mine sounds great, despite the hiss.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 07, 2002).]