Here's my review on the Outlaw 950. I am not an audiophile so this is completely subjective and non technical. I received my first unit back in mid May. I did not have the hiss issue but I noticed that my unit lacked the low end bass in stereo mode. I even visited Will (discussion board member) to listen to his setup and it sounded better than mine. I started corresponding with Outlaw support and they indicated that they would ship a replacement unit once they started shipping. In the meantime, I hooked up my front preouts through my old preamp to get more lowend ooomph.

I recieved my red-dot unit second week on September. I noticed a slight improvement on stereo sound and a different type of bass. Bass was neither better or worse, just different. Overall, it sounded a little better but still not what I was used to. I have a carver ct-5 stereo preamp and music from this unit sounded much fuller. Another issue I noticed that this unit had a louder hiss compared to my old unit. I could hear the hiss from my sitting position, 8 ft away. I contacted Outlaw and they immediately made arrangements for another replacement unit.

I got my second red-dot unit less than a week after. I went through the same tests again (same CDs and DVDs). This second unit still sounded much better in stereo but still lacked the oomph that i was looking for. Even at maximum bass settings, I only hear thuds rather than thumps. The good thing was that there was no more hiss. Now I was at a dillema whether to tolerate the stereo sound, continue to pass my fronts through my old preamp or buy a different unit. I asked my buddy to bring his rotel over. We went through the same tests. Stereo was way better on the Rotel but we both agreed that HT sounded better on the 950. Since I watch more HT, I didnt see the need to spend an extra 3-400 dollars for the 1066.

I decided to keep the 950 and just continue to use my old preamp. Now another issue came up when I connected the red dot unit to my pre-amp. I hear a really loud hiss through my fronts. It was maybe caused by the new changes they did to this unit, it just became imcompatible with that setup. So guess what the end of this story is? I returned the new red dot unit and kept my first one. I dont hear any hiss in stand alone or using an extra preamp. The carver adds fullness to the stereo sound enough to satisfy my needs. As an added bonus, since the fronts sound fuller and bass is deeper now, HT sounds soooooooooo much more explosive and alive.

Another note. One of the major factors I stayed with Outlaw was the level of support I received from Scott and Mike. They were reponsive, polite and patient. They ship units right away to my surprise because thats just not the kind of support I'm used to in dealing with Internet only businesses. So kudos to those guys!

So sorry about the long post. I just wanted to share my experiences and opinions. Hope everyone has/had a great day!

I ended up relagating my 950 to DSS, VCR and AM/FM duty only. It's really a shame I had to do this. I put my Sony EP9ES Dolby Digital processor back in service, with my Smart CircleSurround box which extracts Dolby EX better, I think, than the same function in the 950. For straight stereo, I run the analog output of my Sony DVD player directly to a very good vacuum tube stereo preamp that is in line with my main left and right speakers. I have to get up to turn a 'real knob' to change the volume, but the sound is as pure as it gets for stereo. The 950 hisses out to about 5 feet in my system, which has very efficeint horn speakers, but I can't hear it at my listening position 15 feet away. The vacuum tube preamp is dead quiet, even with my ear pressed to the tweeter. Progress??

Hi RMBG,


It was great seeing you a few months ago! I'm glad you ended up with a 950 you like. It gets down to which 950 is the best of the bunch.

I can certainly relate. Of the many 950's I have listened to here, no two of them sounded exactly alike. They were similar, but not the same. And as you discovered, some have different ways of hissing, than others.

It's the luck of the draw. If you don't like the one you first get, get another and see if you like it better or not. If it's worse, keep the original.

Enjoy!

Will


[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 02, 2002).]

Soundhound: Ya gotta be kiddin? You paid $900 for DSS, VCR and radio only?
And, I thought I was limiting the 950's use by using it for those funtions plus DVD playback?
I too added a Sony TAP-9000es and Outlaw ICBM for MC bypass music functions....?

Am I understanding properly that all these noise issues are associated with the 'pure' analog inputs?

Or more to the point, does this noise problem affect the 'normal' A->D->A analog inputs and D->A inputs? If not the TAP solution is what I'll look into, but if the digital side is also showing problems I'll need to look elsewhere. Maybe 1066+TAP????

Also, is the noise issue a gain structure problem I could fix with adjustable gain on the amps? I will have adjustable gains there.

Will,

Thanks again for you hospitality. I am currently enjoying my system and will not tinker with it anymore. Passing the fronts through my old preamp is working well for me. Now on to my TV purchase.... :-)

The "noise" or hiss is through all speakers with any source selected. When I turn my unit on and it is on a digital source, such as DVD, with nothing playing, it is quiet. Once I change to analog CD input, the hiss appears. Switching back to DVD does not "re-mute" it and the hiss is still there.

Applejelly,

My 950’s have never displayed that behavior (and I checked in early user days) for the occurrence of hiss activated and sustained across all sources once you pass the initial mute circuitry and have switched into and back out of any analog source. I can flip back and forth all day between D and A inputs.
Never occurs on Digital with mine.

Yeah, well my system is not very typical, and I admit I have rather low standards for the program sources the 950 handles. The 950 replaces a Fosgate Model 3 which went belly up. I don't use DSS or my VCR or radio for any serious listening or viewing. I was just disappointed by the excess noise. I was hoping I could use the 950 for DVD playback, but unfortunately, my old equipment works better at this task, so I pressed them back into service. I've always had the vacuum tube preamp driving my main left and right channels (the preamp is a custom design and build) and always use it for 'pure stereo' playback, which I am very picky about, as it is used as a final quality control step for film music soundtracks I master. I have a button which controls an 8 channel relay switcher which changes the input from the whole system from a HT mode to the output of my mixing console for work duties.

The noise measurements I have done on my unit and Will's have been taken in the analog/DSP mode which seems to be a worst-case mode. That mode is basically using any input, but having the input switched to 'analog' , _not_ 'bypass'. On my unit, having any input switched to 'optical' or 'coaxial' digital input reduces the hiss level quite a bit.

If you are able to turn down the level control of you power amps while keeping the trims and main volume on the 950 at "00" or below, and get a volume level you're happy with, you will reduce the hiss by the amount you reduce the level on the power amps.

The analog input is the noisiest mode on my unit also (not the bypass mode) but if I switch to a digital input and back to an analog input the noise does not remain high, as on your unit. It appears the hiss remaining high is a seperate issue, unfortunately......

However, *my* 950 does exactly what applejelly sees. Switching back to DVD in mine does not re-mute it. The hiss remains. Just like in applejelly's.

Soundhound,

In the above post, 'analog CD input' means in my case 'stereo bypass' and not the analog digital DSP stereo mode that, as you know, has even MORE hiss than 'stereo bypass'. The MORE hiss is reduced, to REGULAR hiss, as you know, when switching out of the analog digital DSP mode, to for example, stereo bypass (my 'analog CD input'), or to a digital (non-analog) mode like COAX1. And it stays in REGULAR hiss. Applejelly's point is that when the 950 first turns on, even the REGULAR hiss is missing. But the REGULAR hiss comes on as soon as he switches to analog (and, in my case the REGULAR hiss comes on after something plays, even in a digital mode).

Will


[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 02, 2002).]

OK guys, allow me to suggest a 'hiss labeling protocol'

No hiss: ah!
Low hiss: hiss
Regular hiss: hisss
More hiss: hissssss
Extreme hiss: HISSSSSS

agreed upon?

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited October 02, 2002).]

It sounds like a faulty IC that's creating the hissing condition. Now the fix might not too an easy fix (perhaps swapping out IC board that handles a certain portion of the inputs).

Maybe putting in the board that would normally go into the high zoot Atlantic Technology P2000......

Anybody look at the insides of the AT?

It's possible that despite the marketing claims to the contrary, the AT on the inside is the same as the 950. If AT wanted to make their pre/pro different, wouldn't they have added functionality? No, instead they say they're adding premium hand picked components. Sheesh.

In theory swapping out higher grade ICs in a production line is a pretty simple thing, as long as each 'run' is pretty long. And the cost would be pretty much limited to the downtime on the line plus the extra cost for higher zoot parts. Lots simpler than re-engineering.

It would be dangerous for a company to make public claims like this and not be able to back them up, it seems to me.

I also really like the cosmetics of the p2000. Wonder what the street price will settle down to be?

I'd love to hear them back up the claim. But do you think they'll tell us which parts are premium parts in the 950 clone, and non-premium parts in the 950?


[This message has been edited by Will (edited October 02, 2002).]

I tried calling around to Atlantic Technology dealers in my area to see if they have, or are going to have any P2000s on display so that I might listen to one or hopefully take a quick noise measurement such as I did on my unit or Will's. They all responded that the unit is a special order item only, which they would not have on display. Geez, do we have to take _their_ word for it too?

Sounds like Will and I are in the same boat.

Mine is very simple. I have one level of hiss that comes from all 5 speakers. I can hear the center the easiest, probably due to speaker location, and the surrounds the least, certainly due to location/tweeter height. In a quiet house, I can hear it from 12' away.

If the 950 is powered up at a digital input, the muting circuitry in on, and it is dead quiet. Once the material starts, the hiss appears.

If the 950 is powered up at an analog input, there is the hiss. Switching to a digital input does not change the hiss. Analog bypass mode also does not change the hiss at all.

applejelly -

add mine facts to those you (and Will) stated. My original "acted" the same way, execpt the amount of hiss was higher (hear from across the room).

A new nuance(sp) I've encountered. My reddots hiss seems to have increased since I originally received it. And stranger yet, the hiss is louder during the daytime than at night. More external interfence going on during day?

I'm still really happy with the sound I'm hearing from my 950. My hiss cannot be heard over any source material I'm playing, including those silent moments on CD's or vinyl. Mr. Anal in me simply somtimes thinks could sound be even better with less hiss.

Interesting tidbits - my sister in law has the Denon AVR 4800 with Energy Veritas 2.4's. On all her analog sinals/no source playing, at max volumn, hiss can be HEARD at +5 to 6 feet. Center channel hiss is worst.

Good Guys had the Denon AVR 5803 hooked up with the Veritas 2.4's, and SAME hiss/distance could be heard in their "high-end" room.

RDMB - could you explain how you're hooking in your second two channel preamp? Are you going out from the 950 into say an aux or video input on your 2 channel, and from there out to the L&R on the amp?

Do you find that this timbral change to just 2 speakers distracting with HT? I have an old Rotel pre that I'm looking to do something similar with. Thanks for any help.

HT,

Yes, I connect my 950 front preouts to the aux input on my preamp. I pick a volume level on my preamp and keep it there all the time. I then calibrate my 950 accordingly. This way, I dont have to play with 2 volume controls all the time.

Stereo sounds way way better to me since my preamp adds more processing and gives it that extra oomph that my 950 lacked. I don't know if this degrades the quality since I'm adding another layer but I don't notice it so it's all good.

HT actually sounds better in this setup as well (IMHO). Running my fronts as large, it adds more bass and fullness to the sound. Especially in action or explosive scenes. Sometimes, I dont even feel the need to turn on my sub. I don't notice any double bass either.

I'm quite happy with this setup. I don't blame it on the 950, it just didnt satisfy my tastes on stereo sound.

rmbg - yes I remember we both were discussing our reservations about the 2 channel sound on our 950's and considered returning them at the same time.

With the wife and kids out of town I'm going to experiment with this tonight. I'd be happy enough to get a decent sound in 2 channel even if the great HT sound was compromised a bit.

BTW, do you connect your CD player directly into your two channel pre, or is it still connected into the 950?

HT,

All my components are still connected to the 950. I actually don't touch my old preamp anymore after i set the volume, bass and treble levels on it. Let me know how you like the sound on yours with this setup.

So the bass and treble are something other than flat? If so that would explain a few things...

Charlie,

Yes, the bass on my 950 is kinda weak and flat sounding for me so I needed my old preamp to do some extra processing to add more bass and imaging to my stereo sound.

RDMB - I'm nervous about have 2 a/d conversions in the loop and would prefer the analog going directly into the Rotel. But I'll try it both ways. I got a cheap Radio Shack AB switch which I'll upgrade to a more audiophile version if the AB route looks promising.

I'll report back what I find.

OK I tried the AB switch that routed my fronts between my Rotel 2 channel and my 950. The degradation was beyond words. Maybe there are "high end" AB switchers out there, or its just the nature of the beast.

Then I tried what you suggested and connected the 950's front through the Rotel. I was shocked by how much better music sounded in 2 channel. The warmth, ambience, weight, accuracy was all amazing. Except that there was a bit much energy in the upper mids which made extended listening fatiguing. But minus that problem, both pre's together sounded better than each seperately.

But alas switching to HT even after recalibration was simply aweful. And since HT is the 950's strong suit, I guess I'll just have to find another solution for 2 channel. Mabye its time to pop for the Sony TAN9000ES? Or the McCormack TLD-1 with HT passthrough. But at the moment we're saving pennies for the new HT projector.