Do the new 950s have lower than expected volume output? I've seen several posts about the "red-dot" 950s having this problem.

Hello Scott,

The "Red Dot" 950s simply have a lower gain (by 3dB). This is not a problem or a design error, just a difference.

The "Red Dot" Model 950 has more than enough gain to drive virtualy any amp to clipping.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scott (edited September 11, 2002).]

Was that one of the hiss fixes?


brianca.

It is truly amazing how people can and will pick anything apart. I am astonished that any home theater equipment is ever sold considering the way every piece of equipment is cut down.

scott,

my 950 arrived today. i just finished watching pearl harbor. you might want to ask my neighbors if there was a volume problem.

GOD heal the survivors of one year ago today, and remember all those lost.

I don't think it's meant critically. It's just an observed difference between the two units. People seem to be curious what the differences are. I don't think it's wrong for the people who have the new ones to comment on how they sound compared to the original units.


brianca..

He called it a "problem". Maybe I took it the wrong way. Sorry.

I personally can't wait to find out how loud my 950 will play.

(Still 6 - 8 weeks or so to go for me...)

Well it would be a problem if you lost headroom in the amp, right? 3db is half power? Or half amplitutde? how does that work?

From what Scott says, I don't think it's really anything to worry about unless you drive a Krell or Sunfire Signature at full power. He said it can still drive virtually any amp to clipping, so I would feel pretty safe that it could drive an Outlaw Model that loud. All you are losing is a little bit of loudness at the top end.

To my understanding, this is not the same as losing half the power in the amplifier. So at normal volumes (or even pretty loud levels) your system will sound exactly the same as it did if it had the extra 3db available on the 950.

A 3db loss in volume is just audible. Yes, if you cut the power by 3db, it is half the power. If you cut the VOLTAGE by 6db, it is half. A 10db change in volume is generally perceived by most people is being '1/2 as loud'. I would think the 3db lowering in gain was part of the 'fix' as this would contribute to a 3db lower noise floor if done in the output stage. It appears that the new units have a more drastic reduction in noise than what 3db would achieve however, so other steps were probably taken. In the end, just listen and enjoy, as the gain of a preamp has no bearing on your enjoyment, as long it is capable of driving your power amps to full output (and you out of the room). The only '3db of volume you are losing' at the top end, is what would probably be WAY into clipping of the power amp, not to mention your poor speakers, and your ears.



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited September 12, 2002).]

It's not doubling the power demand on the amp to maintain the same volume?


(I ask these questions not beacuse I want to hate the 950, but because I want to buy it)

No, not at all. In real world terms, it is simply that the 950 won't drive the amp as hard (probably into useless clipping!) as a preamp with more gain. In listening, it makes absolutely no difference what the gain of a preamp is. As an aside, in engineering perspective, it is desirable to have only as much gain as needed to drive a power amplifier into clipping, and no more. Having more gain than is actually needed just increases the noise the preamp contributes. Trust me, Outlaw is probably doing you a favor in lowering the gain by 3db!

ScottAvery, I don't think you need to be concerned about this. I received my red dot Outlaw 950 and installed it yesterday. I did have to calibrate all 8 channels about 2-3dB hotter than my original version in order to achieve reference level (75dB) at 0dB on the volume control.

But, paradoxically, I found myself running the volume about 3dB lower than I would have with my original Outlaw 950. That is, I was watching DD5.1+CR at about -17dB rather than -14dB in a 30x15 room. If I tried to play this at reference level, I would have had to leave the building.

Using Aragon 8008x3 (200wpc) for front and Carver 705x (125wpc) for surround.

ScottAvery, what kind of amp and speakers will you be using? Also, how big is your room?

Here's a comparison, I think it should be ok to get the idea of we're saying.

Take the McLaren F1. It goes like 230-235 mph. Imagine putting a speed governer that lets it go "only" 225. Are you really going to notice? It's not the same as putting something like a Honda Civic engine into the car (which would be like putting in an amp that's much less powerful). How many people can control a car going this fast anyway? (how many amps can really put out the power to match that high of a volume?)

The last couple posts are right, Outlaw probably did us a favor in lowering the preamp gain so that the amp would not clip.

[This message has been edited by BenjaminRigby (edited September 12, 2002).]

Some music is quite soft, and sometimes you may want to turn the volume up.

The volume knob goes from -80 db to +10 db. Is the range between -80 and -70 used?

It's fine with me that when the volume is on the max, in a loud passage, that the amp will clip since I don't have to play it that loud and, it allows me to turn the volume more loudly on a softer passage.

I've read recommendations in several places to increse the pre-amp gain to improve headroom in the amp, especially with subwoofers. Hence the questions about the impact of reduced gain in the preamp.

and... I've always heard that it is always better to have your AMP gain turned all the ways up for best performance. John Curl at Parasound is known for designing hot amps with pumped up gains.

(Oops... my bad.)Actually, I should have said that Parasound turns up the bias on their amps...not the gains. ---Nevermind----
I guess you can tell I am no engineer...

[This message has been edited by merc (edited September 12, 2002).]

Gain and headroom are seperate issues in engineering terms. More or less gain does not impact headroom per se. The "gain" of a preamp is not adjustable anyway, it is fixed by it's designer; you are just regulating how much signal is fed to the outputs with the volume control. Like a garden hose; the water pressure is fixed (or should be!) and as you turn the spigot, you are just letting more or less water through. Same with a preamp, only less wet....

Hell yes, ask Michael Schumacher if he would like his Ferrari reduced let's say one percent in horsepower or 5 to 10 mph less in top speed, he would not be world champion.

My theory as far as cars go MORE HORSEPOWER.

Now as for the topic I agree the three decibels is not (at least on paper) going to be missed.

LQQK

Ideally, you should start by setting your preamp volume control to "0" or "ref", and all the individual channel trims to zero. Play a DVD with test pink noise (5.1). Set the gain pot on the power amps for 75db sound pressure level per speaker. I know this sounds counter-intuitive, but that is the way it is done on film dubbing stages, except the reference level is 85db instead of 75db. Doing this, besides giving you a calibrated reference setting on your volume control, insures the best gain structure for the reproduction chain. I know, I know, this is not how it is presented in most consumer manuals, but just trust me on this one.

Actually, power to weight ratio, and on that count, a motorcycle will beat any car, any day.

So long as the torque doesn't flip the motorcyle over in a power wheelie.

Here's my take on the preamp gain.

Yes there is 3dB less gain on the preamp, which means the signal going out the preamp RCA's is 3dB less at the same volume setting as before. -3dB of voltage is, I believe, .293V (1-.707) down from 1V and .586V down from 2V.

The 950 spec (on the web site) is 1V rated output voltage at zero dB gain for analog bypass. The rated output for digital inputs is 2V (at 0dB playback). I am guessing this really means what the output voltage is when the volume readout says 0dB.

So now that output voltage is less than those values by maybe 293 and 586 millivolts resectively.

The 770 amp achieves maximum rated output with an input of 1.43V (also on the web page).

It appears that the 950 might now be derated to 1.414V (1-.686) for any digital input, which is almost 1.43V. The question is, can the 950 exceed it rating? Well you can turn the thing up beyond 0 dB right? So I would suspect it can.

For analog, I am less sure. Maybe it is now only rated for .707V instead of 1V.

As a comparison, the Rotel 1066 is rated at 1.2V output for a 200mV input. This would be an analog only input, since digital inputs are not voltages.

Also for comparison, the Parasound HCA-2205 amp is spec'ed at 1V input equals 28.28V output (THX reference level) and 1.5V input equals maximum amp output. The Bryston 9B is 125W x 5. For it, 1V in equals 100W out.

This is a technical issue and I am no electrical engineer. If Outlaw were to state the maximum output voltage (without clipping or seriously distorting the 950), that would answer the question for certain. It appears that 1V is loud, but not max volume for most amps. 2V is most certainly max power (or more) for about all amps.

If the max 950 voltage is high enough max out your amp, then the benefit of less gain is a less sensitive volume knob, meaning you have more usuable range before the volume is "too loud."

Huuuhhhhhhhh????

Geez, you are really splitting hairs here. First of all, a voltage difference of 1/2 is 6db, not 3db. 3db is half the POWER. Really, you might as well split hairs on the color of the AC line cord on the 950, as it makes about as much difference. As a general rule of thumb, pretty much all consumer (and professional for that matter)sound gear has a maximum voltage output of somewhere in the neighborhood of 7 volts, or +20db above .775 volts. This is due to the fact that they pretty much all use the same power supply voltages (plus and minus 15-18 volts DC) and pretty much the same ICs or in some cases output transistors.
Fix yourself a BIG pitcher of Margratias, sit back, throw on a good movie, and enjoy!!

Fix yourself a BIG pitcher of Margratias, sit back, throw on a good movie, and enjoy!![/B][/QUOTE]

Where have I heard this advice before? Charlie are you there?
DmC

Maybe it would be more appropriate to call the Volume Knob an attenuator.

It actually is called that in some applications. On a mixing console, it's called a 'fader'. I think the most descriptive label is one I've seen in British hi-fi; a 'loudness' control. But then again, they made Norton and BSA motorcycles, so what do they know?



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited September 13, 2002).]

Hey, wait a minute. I've had both a BSA and Norton and they were..... oh yeah now I remember, they were worthless.

Am I mistaken, but I thought there were no vol pots on the Outlaw amps. They are wide open at full power from the time you turn them on, and the preamp merely attenuates the gain.

I'm not sure - I'm not a designer of pre/pros, but I would have thought the 'knob' was attached to a digital encoder on modern equipment - the 1050 sure acts that way since there are no limits of travel - it turns until you get tired.

That would mean the 'knob' actually is controlling a variable in the software that is part of the internal math.

The internal math would determine the digital values that are applied to the output DACs.

Just a guess.

The ''loudness" knob is indeed just a controller of a digital circuit in some equipment. However the actual volume can be controlled in a number of ways. One is to scale the digital to analog converter mathematically. Another approach is to control a resistive 'ladder' network where turning the control shunts in precision resistors in the analog signal path, thus attenuating the signal. How the 950 does it is anybody's guess. Many ways to try to get an errant Norton to start up....I mean to attenuate a signal.

That may well be the case. Most pro amplifiers and some consumer ones have input level adjustment pots. The Outlaw amps are not 'at full power' all the time however. The amount of voltage you put into them will determine how much power they put out.

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited September 13, 2002).]

LQQK, the car comparison was if a normal person driving, not a professional racer. The pro would be like having a $10,000 amp hooked in. None of us everyday people would notice, just like like many amps would not notice a difference. I don't think I could control a car going that fast. And to my understanding, a speed governor only limits the top speed (if this is wrong, imagine one that works the way I am thinking). Normal operation and acceration would be exactly the same.

The huge Ford diesel pickups have a governer that stops the fun and games at 97 mph, but considering the capabilities of the rest of the package I bet even a professional driver wouldn't care.

And by trimming the channels +3 there is no difference - so I don't see it as an issue, unless one already had those adjustments pinned too.

They could be controlling volume mathematically through the DACs, but I doubt it. Each 6dB would require a single bit, which would make for 90/6=15 bits, on top of the 16-24 needed for most source material. I suppose they could have put in a 39 bit DAC, but the specs for the unit do list 24 bit DACs.

Additionally, I thought (perhaps erroneously) that the volume readout on the 950 indicated the amount of gain it was currently applying; that 0dB meant that the signal was essentially pass-through; that positive numbers meant gain and negative numbers meant attenuation. Is that not the case? If so, then changing the preamp by 3dB means that it's not the case anymore.

I don't know where I heard that idea from; maybe I just pulled it out of a hat or something.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

By the way, I have 5 Norton Motorcycles. I have 3 750's a Fastback, Roadster and S-Model. I have 2 850's both are MKIII's. I grew up on Honda's but got the desire for an English bike after taking a small engines class which was instructed by a teacher who loved Triumphs and Indian motorcycles. The Norton Commando was different from other British bikes, smoother and more reliable. My 1975 MKIII Interstate has 65,000 miles on it, came stock with disk brakes front and rear, stainless steel fenders, Left foot shift, electric start. I added electronic ignition, and a single 34mm Mikuni carburetor to make it more reliable and easier to start. I have been very happy with it. They were good bikes in their day and met the expectations of their owners. But other countries changed those expectations (for the better) and the rest in history.

I knew that comment about Brit Bikes would get you going.....I ride myself, and have had a few that would now be classics (not Brit) but sold them thinking they would be worthless later - HA! Sounds like you have quite a garage full there. A '69 Bonnie maybe? Enjoy!

The only Triumph I had was a 79 bonnie, the wet frame. I sold it. To be honest with you I could not stay on the bike for more than a mile or two, too much vibration. The Norton Commandos had the Isolastic suspension system which isolated the rider from the vibes. It didn't get rid of them, but I could get on a Norton and do 300 miles easy and didn't have to stop for gas. 60 mpg 6.3 gallon tank on the Interstate model. They also had about 55-60 HP and 58 foot lbs of torque. The 750's were known to do high 12's at about 110 out of the box. The Commando gathered quite a reputation, after all it was only around for 5-6 years, sold only about 100,000 units, took Kenny Roberts and Yamaha 3 years to be able to beat it on the oval. etc....

[This message has been edited by MeanGene (edited September 17, 2002).]

The importance of output voltage on the preamp depends on the sensitivity of your amplifier. For example, my Acurus is rated for full output at 1.1 volts. So if the 950 really is at .707V it is an issue.
What are the old specs vs the new?

Tom

Both the old manual and the new spec the output at 1.5V. However, the on line spec sheet from 3/1 shows 1.0V.

Is that the fix?

Can someone please clarify?

Thanks
Tom

accidental post

[This message has been edited by Will (edited September 17, 2002).]

I have a Cinepro 2k5ll amp connected to a Parasound AV2500, I was getting hiss so Cinepro had me open the top & move a switch for each channel which reduced the input, maybe what Outlaw did with the preamp just reduce output to lower hiss.

Note that in the manual, it also says that the _maximum_ output is 6.3 volts. THAT is the important spec, not the 'rated' output which is pretty much meaningless as far as driving a power amp. This means that, given enough INPUT voltage (pretty easy as equipment is pretty standardized), the output of the Outlaw will go all the way to 6.3 volts, MORE than enough to drive your power amp into clipping. Relax......

I guess the 6.3V is a max under the best conditions. The specs, such as S/N, THD, etc, must have been measured when the output voltage was set to 1.5V into a 100kohm load. Thus, like most other specs, they are just specs - no way of knowing what they are under other conditions, but it probably doesn't matter much anyway.

Exactly, that is why I try to advise people to just ignore the 'specs' and put much more weight on how it works and sounds in THEIR system. Specs can be manupulated just like statictics...and we all know where THAT leads.