Are they identical? Any differences between the two? Same behaviour on ALL inputs type?

Thanks,
Mike

I don't know the difference, but I believe if you check some previous posts, this topic was already touched upon. The other Outlaws should be able to point out the differences... Kevin C Brown are ya out there? There are many threads concerning this topic. Try this one... hope it helps
http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000464.html

DmC

[This message has been edited by DMC (edited September 02, 2002).]

Here's a thread that covers the problems with the Rotel.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&postid=971770#post971770

Basically, the 5.1 analog inputs, in addition to sending the correct signal to the "5" part of the "5.1", unfortunately also redirect the bass below 80 Hz (I think it is), to the ".1" channel. In other words the .1 channel has LFE *and* redirected bass from all the mains in there.

The Rotel also does this for 2 channels stereo in the "bypass" mode. (I.e., *not* using the internal digital crossover.)

And it also does it for normal 2 channel stuff, even if it is digitally crossed over, if you have the mains set as Large.


As far as the Outlaw, I think we only know that it has the 5.1 problem. Now, the good thing about the 950 is that you can avoid the problem entirely if you crossover using the 80 Hz analog crossover switch on the back. Sure, you don't get full range mains, but you don't get double bass either.

I really don't know if the Outlaw has the same 2 channel (analog and digital) problems that the Rotel does. I remember someone doing some tests once, but I can't remember the results because it wasn't relevant to me!

(I would use small everywhere and crossover anyway.)

Try out the Rotel in the shop. they don't all double the bass as described above. Mine does straight pass through on the 5.1 inputs.

brianca.

brianca- I don't know what's up with your unit. Even Rotel admits the problem on www.htguide.com in the forums...

>> Ahh, I see you already know about htguide.com ... Maybe Dre J will be able to figure out why's your is different.


[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited September 03, 2002).]

The 950 does it for 2 channel bypass mode, too. The difference is, it's not as much of an issue because you can turn off your subwoofer or lower its trim to get rid of the extra bass if you don't like it. It's only an inconvenience.

That "solution" is not available with the 5.1 input because doing that causes you to lose your LFE as well.

It's a horrible design mistake that could have been avoided easily with a "double bass" menu item buried somewhere. Yes, many people find it useful, and yes, that's why Outlaw added it, but the fact that it's not defeatable is incomprehensible. The Outlaws *have* a well-thought out BM solution (ICBM-1) that is rendered useless by this defect.

The lesson from all this: Just because you think it's a "nifty" feature and just because think many, even most, people will like it and use it, you MUST always provide the the base behavior as an alternative becaus there will be some people who won't like it. Forcing things like this down people's throats is worse than not including the feature at all. For you can always make up for a feature a product doesn't provide; it's much more difficult to undo a feature you can't disable.

Before people come to the conclusion that I hate my 950, I'll say that this has never been an issue for me. Probably because I've never used the 5.1 inputs and because when I use the analog bypass, I turn down the sub.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

This issue did finally bother me with some specific discs... so, I added a $400 Sony TAP-9000es preamp and an ICBM to the mix. IMO, the total sonic qualities and options of this combo matches(or exceeds) the sonic quality of a much more expensive Anthem AVM-20. And, of course, easily beats the Rotel 1066 in my opinion. YMMV!

How do you do the hookups? Sounds interesting.

Thanks for the info so far.

Here is one guy that uses two ICBMs with his 1066:

http://home.fuse.net/ill-dre/RSP-1066%20Dual%20ICBM%20SANDWICH.htm

I really hate the fact that I will probably have spend another $500 + a ton of additional quality cables to solve a problem that should have been addressed in the product right from the start.

I bought a DVD-A player and I would like to use it…

And the Anthem is simply out of reach for me. Gee... Do I need to wait another year for a "working" product? (I know that Rotel is working on a big brother of the 1066. My guess is that this D.Bass "feature" will be fixed. But how much will it cost???) Or I could buy a 1050 and forget it for a while?

I'm not in the mood of changing my audio equipment every year, so I want something that is bug free from the start.

Should I look for an integrated instead? What do you think?

Charlie: I too used a pair of ICBMs, one for SACD and one for DVD-A, but now I gave up on DVD-A so I sold my second ICBM. I run everything through the Sony P9K preamp as so:
1. MC SACD player --> ICBM --> (5.1 Input 1)9PK
2. Stereo 2 channel analog --> (5.1 Input 2)9PK
3. Outlaw 950 --> (5.1 bypass Input)P9K
4. Outlaw 950 Rear Center Pre-outs --> amp --> speakers

Finally,
5. P9K 5.1 outputs--> amps --> speakers

This allows me to use the ICBM for SACD and my 950's triple crossover for movies and digitally converted output. Yet, my analog music takes the most direct route possible.



[This message has been edited by merc (edited September 03, 2002).]

Perhaps I'm dense (some have already opined as much) but are you saying the P9K to 950 analog in?

I'm looking for a 5.1 DVD-A solution with no (zip, nada) bass management. Is it possible?

Charlie: Nope. The 950s 5.1 preouts go through the P9K's 5.1 bypass inputs. The P9Ks bypass inputs pass straight through the P9K without even going through the volume control and work without turning the P9K on.
Sure, that's easy. Just eliminate the ICBM in my setup and you are good to go. Your DVD-A analog output will only pass through the analog volume control of the P9K and nothing else.

Wow. That's the first workable (for me) solution I've heard - thanks!

To clarify something about the 950's bass management and DVD-A, I had asked Outlaw how the 950 and the ICBM handle the "subwoofer" channel. Since there is no standard for DVD-A, it's a little inaccurate to say it's 5.1, rather, it's 6.0 or it's whatever the mix engineer decides it to be. I have a couple of DVD-As that have some rather high frequency information in the "subwoofer" channel, even some vocals, I think (e.g. a few tracks on Toy Matinee). I normally bypass the crossover on the subwoofer but, when playing DVD-As, I engage the crossover on the subwoofer to filter out the high frequencies to prevent the resultant distortion. Whatever the engineer intended for me to hear in this channel is lost.

When I asked Outlaw about the 950 and the ICBM regarding the sub woofer channel, Scott's reply was that the ICBM filters out anything over 150 hz and the 950 filters out anything over 120 hz.

When I get my 950, the built in LPF will save me the step of engaging my sub's crossover, but for anyone who likes to play the 6.0 discs and really looks for that full range info in the "subwoofer" or "6th" channel, you'll have to find a workaround.

Any idea spatially 'where' the 6th DVD-A channel is supposed to be?

I have a 6.1 system with the center rear being full range (dedicated sub on that channel) so I could send the 6th DVD-A there in theory. It would work just as good for bass as LFE, but if it's not supposed to be behind you.....

I'm moving to theory, BTW - everything works there.

I may need the ICBM, but I'm going to try and find a DVD-A with internal bass management in the digital domain. My center front is 'small'.

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited September 04, 2002).]

Charlie,

There isn't really a specification for the "6th" channel for DVD-A, hence the problem. My understanding is that it's used as a subwoofer channel or a center height channel, meaning it's placed over your center channel. I think center height is what the Chesky (sp?) offerings want it to be.

If you rear center is full range and can handle the LFE, why not give it a try? Unless and until a spec is agreed upon, anything goes for the recordings so why not for our setups.