Hi I'm going to ask a question that i am sure is getting old but I am about to throw my old receiver on the barby.What's the story with the 950 ? I've been putting off dropping the big bucks on a comparable product for a month and today I have an itchy trigger finger.Of course everyone has equipment out there that they can only sell at a great price TODAY !Yeah right! Anyway I'd prefer a 950 (of course I only know what I read about it here).ButOutlaw has a wonderful reputation.Anything new? Billy

The last official word was that it was still on track to ship in October. No recent news, however.

I received an email from one of the Outlaw's who happens to be out at CEDIA this week. He wrote (and gave me permission to post) ...


Later,

------------------
pat----

home: psklenar@home.com ... office: psklenar@uhc.com

no home page yet, so ...
Entertainment Center ---==*==--- DVD Collection

Thanks Pat ,Gonk. I am now also interested in the 770.Power hungry ? Who me ? Naaaaaaaah

Just a reminder.............................

LQQK

LOL
at that time , i was thinking DON'T get on the list now , it will mess up X-MAS [01]
now it looks like it going to mess up X-MAS [02],,,kids no new bikes this year

BOY TIME FLY WHEN YOUR PISSED

I just signed up on the waiting list for the 950/770 combo this evening. I read one of the posts that said they should be shipping again in October. If so, would anyone know what kind of date someone like myself would be looking at ?

The post said they should ship in October 2001.

Good luck Y'all,
My Aragon arrives tomorrow!
Mix

I sure hope the 950 ships sooner than Oct. (And I'm still guessing you'd have to add on at least 8 weeks for the waiting list and people with units now who want to return them.) My dealer today just got in the new Pioneer 45 receiver, and he said B&K will announce the Ref 40 at the CEDIA and that it will be shipping soon after. No word on price though.

Thanks for the update.

The Ref 40 should be interesting. What's not to like, American made and the useful notch filter for taming your worst room mode bass frequency.

Well, for one, how bout the $3000+ price?

The $3000 bracket really seems to be the 'sweet spot' for this sort of product. You can spend less or more but so far (and correct me before I make a big mistake) it looks to me like the best part of the curve falls in this zone.

When the 950 has shipped a significant number of units without issue I may consider it due solely to its' very attractive price, but I'm more inclined to wait a bit and buy one of these:

- B&K ReferenceXX
- Sunfire TG3
- Anthem AVM20
- ??? (suggestions?)

And they all fall in the same $$$ bracket. They're all upgradeable (the TG3 is REALLY cool this way) and have no serious issues I'm aware of.

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited August 27, 2002).]

Charlie: I've now seen several posts that speak of a popping sound problem that the TG3 has when changing inputs(I think that was the instance noted). Also, the AVM20 upgrade to DPL2 still isn't finalized due to problems with programming the new Motorola DSP chip. Eventually, I'm sure that these problems will get fixed but for now, I can't think of any new pre/pro, at any cost, which has launched without problems. It seems to be largely due to the complexity of units, their processors and the software programming.? The TG3 does look really interesting, has alot of onboard goodies and probably sounds pretty good too.

I think Widescreen Review is currently working on a TG3 review for publication.

Aragon StageOne:
24bit/192khz processors, THX Ultra II Certified. MSRP $4000.00.
Check it out.
Mix

I've seen the STG3 on ebay for like $2,700.
I've also heard that the Ref 30 has the popping problem when you switch inputs too , and that the on screen display comes up everytime you do something.
Fosgate Audionics has a pic and some stats on their new pre-pro on their web-site. It looks ok, imho. Hopefully Sherwoods new pre will be good. I think it'll be way less than the $3000 everybody else is at.

Merc -

I also like the TG3 so far - it looks like it's well thought out and I've always liked Carvers' products in the past. I've heard rumors about the health of Sunfire not being the best financially, so that is a bit worrying.

I'll be reading that review with interest.

Any idea where a person can get a PDF of the manual?

Charlie

IMHO anybody that pays more than about $1500.00 for any computer-based product in these times of rapid obsolesence is absolutely nuts. They all use basically the same chipsets, and once you get to the level of the 950 or thereabouts, it's all about feature sets, not performance. It's the old Rolex thing------give me a Timex, and I'll happily spend the change on something else. Wait for the 950, or possibly the Sherwood or Rotel. 1/4" thick Aluminum faceplates sound no more good than 1/32" plastic ones!!

I kinda agree with soundhound about spending too much due to "rapid changes"; but on the other hand, if the unit sounds great, really great, for 99.9% of the media out there, you can enjoy it for a long time without "missing out."

Another unit to check out is the new Naim AV2. Perfect Vision is reviewing one shortly. It is $4k MSRP, but so is the Aragon.

That's not even close to being true. Yamaha does their own DSP. Denon and Sony and others use AD SHARCs. Rotel and Outlaw and others use Cirrus. B&K and Anthem and others use Motorola.

And then there's software, DACs and ADCs, power supplies, board design, etc, etc.

You might argue that the end effect is the same, and I would mostly agree with you there , but there are many different chip sets out there.

I have seen that the Ref 40 might list as low as $2800. That would put it in the low $2k's for the street price. I'd consider it at that point, especially if it has a true 2 channel bypass mode, and a true 5.1 analog passthrough. (No "double bass".) The Ref 30 is rated very highly on www.audioreview.com compared to other pre/pros.

A number cruncher is basically a number cuncher, whether Sony, Denon, Yamaha, Intel, or anyone else. The only real variable is the skill of the person writing the software, and that is not exclusive to the expensive brands. A good power supply can be designed by any compentent person, whether from an ultra expensive company or not. Sorry... feeling kinda surly from waiting for my 950....

[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited August 28, 2002).]

Well... I've seen the Outlaw 950 sold as low as $750. I have not seen the BW 40 advertised officially for less than anything...? Still, even with the so called double bass, I prefer the Outlaw 950 to the BK 30. It is cleaner and less veiled and that makes all the difference in the hearing world. Oksy?

I kind of liken the whole "justify the price thing" to the car industry. You can drive a Geo Metro (no offense owners) or you can drive a Mercedes (no offense owners). Both will "get you there". They both have engines and tires and some of the same options: air, radio, wiper delay, etc.. but one will get you there in more style: dual climate control, wipers on the headlights, etc... it's all relevant to the cost (in most cases). If you can't afford a Mercedes then the Metro will still get you there, just not in the same style and comfort etc..., but should you hate Mercedes owners or call them foolish or think that Mecerdes' should cost the same as the Metro? No. If I had Mercedes money then I would go buy a Lexicon or a Nagra or Sim Audio, but since I don't, I won't hold it against them or tell Mercedes to lower there prices cause it's not fair.

[This message has been edited by Maximum7 (edited August 28, 2002).]

I don't agree completely. Rolex vs. TImex isn't at all about feature sets, its' about much more intangible things. The Sunfire or B&K have some intangibles, but they also sport tangible real advantages. IMO you're only half right, or is it half wrong?



Charlie

I guess it comes down to who you're trying to impress - yourself or someone else....

Intangible means INtangible - NON-physical. So for material goods anything 'intangible' would have to relate to NON-PERFORMANCE issues - and without doubt get into the field of status, exclusivity, 'snobbery' - etc.

And that is indeed the whole point of searching for equipment which has INTRINSIC value and has not had its price goosed up for intangible characteristics!

[This message has been edited by Jason Kent (edited August 28, 2002).]

Exactly. So things like 9.1 capability, field upgradeable firmware, more inputs, more outputs, balanced outputs, etc. would seem to be pretty darn tangible advantages.

The Rolex wouldn't do anything a Casio couldn't, and in reality the Casio would almost certainly keep better time.

I'm a Timex person myself...

The analogy between cars and computing devices (really what a pre/pro is) is really apples and oranges! Cars are a relatively mature technology that's not going to fundamentally change in the forseeable future (at least gasolene powered ones). Computing is it's VERY infancy. Cars of 20 years ago were basically like the ones now (I might say better), but computers of today (and home theatre electronics) are going to look as silly and quiant 20 years from now as a Commodore or Apple II does now. Cars (and motorcycles for me) are bought for their styling as much as for their performance (Harleys MORE for style than performance - excepting the V-Rod, but don't get me started!) Both tangible and IN-tangible reasons come into play. Home theatre electronics are bought (or should be bought for) their performance and "bang for buck" _especially_ considering the changing nature of the state of the art. True, I paid a fortune for one of the early Macintoshes, but at the time there were no other machines that did what I needed to do at any price. Now, there are plenty of choices. Same in the case of the 950; Outlaw is forcing the price point down (probably more aggressively than they would like, considering all the pain!), and soon there will be PLENTY of choices in the under 1K price point. Paying more at this point as far as I'm concerned, is folly, and the'yre are plenty of snake oil types that will gladly take your $3,000 for a $1,000 box.

Timex rules......

I'd agree if the less expensive item provides identical or better functionality, functionality being defined by perfomance of primary function. For instance, your Timex is a watch, whose primary function is not to impress women in bars or business associates or whatever, but to keep accurate time. In performing the primary function of a watch it clearly outperforms a Rolex for much less money.

In the case of a pre/pro the primary function is signal management, including switching and processing. In this case the Sunfire TG3 (for example) has clear benefits over the Outlaw 950 (again, for example) in the performance of their primary function. Whether the difference in performance is worth the difference in cost is a matter each buyer must evaluate for him or herself.

Thus I find the Timex/Rolex comparision not really representative of the issue. All IMO and YMMV of course.

Wait a minute, I thought that was the primary function of a pre/pro...

I agree. Also, I would say the same thought would apply regarding the features found in each particular processor.

If you really believed that, why not buy a $500 receiver and use that as a pre/pro?

If you say that there's no or not much difference between the Outlaw at $950 and pre/pros costing more than $1500. Why would there be any more difference in a receiver at $500? You could save a lot of money that way.

Plus, due to economies of scale, a receiver at $500 actually might have *more* engineering hours put into its design. (I.e., they sell a lot more of them, so the R&D overhead per unit is a lot less. Plus the many common components that would be in units just below or just above that particular unit in a company's product line.)

Hey, today's $500.00 receiver probably outperforms a $1500.00 unit of a few years ago!!!

There is a downward threshold to anything built for a certain price point, below which overall quality and reliability suffers. The quality of the switches, jacks, and controls for instance. Also, a really cheap receiver cannot afford to put as powerful a DSP chip into its design, therefore the processing is compromised by having to make do with less processing power. Just listen to the "boingy-chruch" reverb settings that some receivers have. They are trying to make shortcuts in the processing power devoted to what is a rather complicated process. Same thing with computer program plug-ins for DSP for your soundcard (or my digital workstation) Some processes take 2 or 3 DSP chips to get the reverb or other effects right. The Outlaw 950 probably is pretty close to that "sweet spot" where the quality of the components is good enough, yet there is little "fat" wasted on cosmetics. Also, notice they don't even attempt to do "room simulations" which cuts DSP overhead (and are pretty useless IMHO) and would probably sound pretty crappy anyway in a unit costing under $1000.00.

I'm sure you know all this already...



[This message has been edited by soundhound (edited August 28, 2002).]

You just contradicted yourself dude.



So a "number cruncher" isn't just a "number cruncher."

I don't know about y'all, but the 6 channel Aragon Aurum Class A preamp that is part of tha Aragon Soundstage that I installed yesterday most certainly does not sound like a Casio!
The only person that I'm out to impress is myself. I listen to music, and/or, movies everyday. Couldn't wait for the Outlaws any longer. The only thing I have to wait on now is the upgrade to some newer formats and 24/196 chips. With the way this unit sounds and functions right now it will be an extremely pleasurable wait.
$1700.00 on Ubid. Incredible deal. I spoke with Steve at Mondial/Aragon. With the release of the StageOne, they sold all of the remaining 2001 Soundstages to Ubid. I couldn't be more satified right out of the box. I'm just wondering how much better it will sound with a little time on it.
I'll be auctioning-off my spot on the waiting list. (Just kidding).
Good luck.
Mix

[This message has been edited by MixFixJ (edited August 29, 2002).]

I was referring to FUNCTION, not the relitive POWER of a DSP. The DSP in a $199 unit HAS THE SAME FUNCTION AND CRUNCHES NUMBERS the same way as that in a $4,000.00 unit, the only difference is in scale. BUT given sufficient DSP power allocoated to the job at hand, that $199 unit COULD in theroy decode DD as well as the $4000.00 one.

Mix- I might just have to take a look-see for one of those Aragons. I have two Acurus A200x3's now, and that would make for a nice setup...