Sorry guys ... but my faith in Outlaw Audio has gone. I have been waiting for several months for my 950 ... and have yet to get an answer as to where it is. Problem after problem have taken my business elsewhere ... I have just purchased a Sunfire Theater Grand III. I had really hoped a company would have come about that offered a great product at a good price. What I learned ... was just the opposite ... good things aren't cheap .. and cheap things aren't good.

Outlaw Audio has taught me one thing ... beware of misleading information and lies. And more then anything ... DON'T buy through the INTERNET. For years ... I have read about being aware of internet frauds ... and have finally found this advice to be true. Needless to say .... I will NEVER purchase any audio equipment through ANY internet company in the future!!!

I am canceling my subscriptions to any and all magazines that reviewed your products. Obviously ... they were given units that didn't adhere to the policies that the normal "Joe" would follow to get you products (and ... that work) and don't understand what Outlaw Audio is about.

I hope my staying away from publications that have mislead me into believing Outlaw Audio was a legitiment business and hope they understand my extreme disappointment and lack of following their advice in the future! Once again ... you get what you pay for. My biggest disappointment is that I actually waited for you people this long. My fault. A Good lesson learned.


Jeff Hubbard

Ps. I will be forwarding this E-mail to all of my subscriptions for Audio magazine and any forums on the above subject I can find.

Outlaw Audio is a true disappointment and an insult to the Audio industry! You are what every "brick and mortar" retailer is warning us about ... you are an insult to the industry!

Wait can be painful, I can acknowledge that, but hey, it's not like you actually paid for the product and never received anything. That would be fraud. But this? Come on!

Taking the time to fix things is the right thing to do. We can't blame Outlaw for that.

Once this story will be part of history, everything should run like with the other Outlaw products. And what I understand is that it should be smooth. Ok, maybe a few defective units from time to time, but they will be replaced anyway.

I'm currently not an Outlaw customer and I still don't know if I ever will... I'm still waiting for the 7100 news.

BUT IN ANY CASES, IT'S MY CHOICE TO WAIT.

From my past experiences with this industry Outlaw is a breath of fresh air. They are the sole reason that this female decided this mixed up messy hobby warranted a learning curve by myself. I sensed a company I could do business with. Numerous clients have enjoyed the advantages of the particularly advantageous niche the Outlaws offering of the ICBM filled, when it premiered. Many have had countless hours of enjoyment from their 1050’s at an incredible bargain as stacked against its previously equivalent compatriots at its debut.
I will shortly own two 950’s if I can talk my husband into the expenditure.

I do not want to make light of the ‘wait’ those have had, - who have not been as lucky as myself in the shipping cue. But I have surfed this sport and if you dig exclusively in the semiconductor industry and deeper, it is not at all uncommon for a launch of a slated project to have stumbling blocks and take 2 years to market fruition. It is normally not information the purchaser in A/V is privy to. Outlaws sole pipeline of Internet sales makes this a necessary evil for this co. target marketing strategies.

I’m sorry if I sound abrupt but I just spent 6,000. dollars with Sony and can’t get the time of day out of their tech line. Outlaw has treated me like I matter for a smaller expenditure out of my pocket towards theirs.
This is rare and it ‘buys’ me.
I don’t let the ‘Rags’ decide my purchases, if I use them, its as a tool, a base line calibration to start from entered into far broader and wider range of calculations and perspectives, part of a ‘data base’ if you please. I don’t trust many movie reviewers either.

Gees, Jeff, maybe you better cancel your subscription to Better Homes and Gardens and Guns & Ammo while your'e at it- and don't forget to email the Governor and your Congressman- I'm sure they'll want to know about this too!

Dear Jeff,


I am truly sorry to read of your disappointment. While I can understand your frustrations and your choice not to purchase our products, I hope that I can provide some insight as to what we are truly about. Outlaw Audio was created as a means to offer high quality audio products at affordable prices. We chose the Internet as a means to that end. Our first three products the Model 750, the Model 1050 and the ICBM have been well received by both audio enthusiasts and the press. During that time, we have created and maintained a reputation not only for our dedication to offering the very best value in the industry, but also our commitment to offering the very best customer service in the industry.


Bringing the 950 to shipping status has been a long and arduous process. During that time we experienced a roller coaster of ups and downs. Through it all, we worked to provide real and meaningful updates in our monthly Newsletters, and offered occasional updates sent out periodically to our electronic mailing list. In addition we have provided a forum, the Outlaw Saloon, for our customers and potential customers to discuss our products and our commitment to customer service.


Again, I am truly sorry to hear that we were unable to ship the Model 950 in time for your needs. As much as our customers have anticipated and waited for this product, no one is more disappointed in the delays than the Outlaws.


That said, the Sunfire Theater Grand is a superb processor and will surely provide you many years of wonderful service. I hope that someday you will reconsider your thoughts surrounding both the industry magazines as well as the Internet business model.


Thanks and regards,


Scott

Hey Jeff, you have a Sunfire Theater Grand III, I'd love to have one of those. I don't know why you're so bitter towards the Outlaws. A lot of us have been waiting a long time but the last time I checked, the Outlaws hadn't taken any of my money and they weren't forcing me to wait.

To bad you've given up on Internet companies, there are a lot of very good companies out there selling some great products that offer high value and superior performance. As an additional sdie benefit, most offer superior customer service. Most of my audio system consist of products I purchased from internet companies and auditioned in my own home. If I didn't like something, I returned it for a refund, no questions asked. Actually, some questions have been asked but mostly by the owners of the companies trying to understand how they might make their products better. If you're more comfortable buying from the B&Ms that's fine too but don't let this bitterness consume you, life's too short. Enjoy your new processor.

-bill

Yeah, the magazine thing was really over the top. Talk about taking it personally.

Sanjay

Don't give the guy a hard time. People get tired of waiting, after a while. Life is short. Last week another person on the forum announced he bought the HK AVR320 with Logic 7 to use as a pre/pro with. Before that a different person bought the Aragon Soundstage. And a lot of people bought the Rotel 1066.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited September 05, 2002).]

If I coulda afforded the Sunfire Theater Grand III, I personally would have gotten an Anthem instead.

But I can wait a little longer for the 950...

I hope they are shipping again by ... CEDIA. Or sooner:

http://ubb.outlawaudio.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000481.html




[This message has been edited by Kevin C Brown (edited September 05, 2002).]

Jeff:

Maybe we all missed something, but did the Outlaws take money from you can not deliver a product? Did they twist your arm and force you not to buy something else? Did they take away all your credit cards along with your car keys so that you couldn't drive to the store of your choice at any time to buy whatever you please?

Who are those "...any and all magazines" that have reviwed the Model 950? Only one magazine has done that to date because we can only presume that the Outlaws stopped production and shipments. By the way, if you look back to the OTHER Outlaw products, they were only reviewed AFTER the first shipments appeared. (Or didn't you take note of that?) Of course, taking this out on the magazines makes perfect sense, right?

Enjoy your new Sunfire -- if you had read the Outlaw Newsletters over the past few months, you would have seen them say that those who couldn't wait should buy something else.

Finally, if you are so mad at the Outlaws, can you name a B&M outlet -- or indeed, any other Internet based merchant that would actually allow someone to post as strong a message against them as you have doen right here in the Outlaw's own forum?

Yeah, they really are awful guys.

ARF ARF from Iggy the Dog

Jeff: To equate the Outlaw 950 roller coaster ride with online internet fraud is pure hyperbole verging on libel. You should reconsider your publishing of such balderdash.

As for the Sunfire, it is a very attractive unit at the online $2600 price. However, if you bought it from a B&M, you probably paid more than $3000. Hopefully, with that kind of cash outlay, you don't switch inputs with the volume level too high, or even during regular playback when the bitstream pauses and resumes, or the popping you hear will drive you to write more angry letters to the editor.

Sunfire has acknowledged the problem and has posted several software updates for the STG3 on its' website. Unfortunately, none of those fixes have worked for everyone. Recently, Sunfire has gone so far as to purchase some CD and DVD players from customers to test with the STG3 units. Still, no complete fix, but they are working on it.

As you are learning, no new complex pre/pros, regardless of cost, are being released without needing at least one fix...

Good Luck with your nice new unit.

One time, I read a movie review in the local newspaper. I went to see the movie and it was bad. So now I don't read newspapers anymore. And I only go to live theater now.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Merc,

You reference to the release of software fixes brings up my only serious concern about the 950. I still do not understand their choice not to include a user-installed software upgrade mechanism.

The techno;ogy will certainly change and develop. The 950 does not provide a simple path to implement those changes.

Any thoughts?

Regards,
Santa Clara Jim

I cant speak for Outlaw, but, I can saw this: Your statement about buying thru the internet is DEAD WRONG! Just over the last year I purchased a Tos 65HX81, a 5700 companion DVD player without a hitch. I even got a tech to come out for tweaking my set at no expense. I plan soon to buy either a DWIN CRT or the Sharp DLP Hi Def units.. I, for one, applaud Outlaw for taking care of these problems and think they are very reputable. You dont always get what you pay for and, although, I , too like the Sunfire unit, I couldnt justify paying so much more. If I were to go that route, I might as well go for Theta or a Lexicon! For now, Ill hang in there!!!!

Disappointed: You said that you "had really hoped a company would have come about that offered a great product at a good price." That is exactly what Outlaw is all about. While it is frustrating for those waiting for new or updated 950s, when all is said and done, everyone will have a high quality product at a fair price. Little Lena and Scott make a good point - you can't deny the success, quality, and bargain of the 1050 and other Outlaw products. And, only a fraction of the 950 users experienced a hiss problem. But Outlaw stopped the presses until they knew they had the problem licked. I can only imagine the frustration and stress at Outlaw as they read all the posts in this forum while they were working on the fix of the 950. Nowhere else can you find a company that allows a forum like this, where users (and non-users) can express their opinions, likes and dislikes, and ask questions. Also, I know of no other company that handles phone calls the way Outlaw does. So while Outlaw is not for everyone, they don't deserve to be slammed so hard. They might have fallen short on promises of anticipated 950 deliveries, but I don't believe there was any deliberate deception. I work for a fire truck builder, and sometimes we deliver late. But one of our priorities is quality over delivery. So, enjoy your system. There aren't many things better than sitting back and listening to great sound.
Mayor D.

ZING, got me Matthew. I read that last line of mine today and ‘thought’ now that doesn’t flow. Forgive me, I had my best friend and horse Co-partner (since we were 13) here last evening and we were both crying into 2 glasses of wine. She’s in the middle of the world’s worst divorce. (Two years now and still not signed, I never dreamt it could take this long). I was sensitive to aggression when I read the post and let tispy fingers fly without thinking, (I'm a lightweight).

I do read papers, and reviews and do compute them! They just rate a sliding scale with me. Wish I could attend live theater all the time, but I’m not in the best town for that. Although I did see Michael Crawford do ‘Phantom’ in LA. My most sublime live experience!

Since I forgot my manners, Dear Dissatisfied, I truly do hope you enjoy the SunFire. The ‘enjoyment’ is what we are all here for!

Jeff

You are dead wrong. As previously stated by everyone above me know one forced you to wait. No one took your money. Maybe the reality of paying 2000$ more has hit you and you need to vent.

The only thing that bothered me with this process was the optimistic schedule that outlaw set on themselves which left them eating crow numerous times. It appears now that they have learned from those mistakes and are being more realistic with their schedules.

TPS

Santaclarajim,
My guess is that Outlaw has pretty much packed everything into the 950 that they can for the outrageously low price of $899.00. Even the next step up is 50% more, and I seriously doubt it is 50% better. They just can't give you every technology available at that price point. I for one am grateful that they are the ONE AND ONLY company in this whole wide world that is making an effort to bring us this kind of quality product.

having never met lena, i can't verify if she is little, but i certainly can tell that she is smart, and one of the many reasons i'm still waiting for my 950.

my comment to disappointed:
sad....but cool...1 less ahead of me.

Thanks Bossobass, I can guarantee I’m little but I don’t claim ‘smart’.

I have been thinking that even though the name of this site is OUTLAW, with a logo that includes a horse, I should change my post name (which I came up with on the spur), - late late the first night I came in.
It’s dawned on me that in AV (without the history behind the choice) the ‘Smart’ part has a decidedly obnoxious ring to it! Here’s a bit of the history why the silly thing crossed my mind that night:

“Smart Little Lena in a pedigree is still cutting magic. He had 17 semifinalists in the three divisions of the 1999 NCHA Futurity led the '99 Futurity sales when 89 horses, or 84 percent of the 106 consigned, brought a leading gross of $2,553,100 for an average of $28,687. The leading sale horse, Mighty Fine Sue, was sired by Smart Little Lena. The pretty yearling filly, out of Meradas Little Sue, sold for $240,000.”
Credit to this site: http://www.smartlilplayer.com/html/smartlittlelena.html

If you guys are bored one day, Do you want to rename me??? And no… I don’t think I’d go for “Little Smartie Pants” even if deserved. Any suggestions???

SLL: Except for the fact, apparently, that Smart Little Lena(the horse) is a stallion, the name fits. Keep it.

[This message has been edited by merc (edited September 05, 2002).]

Jeff,

Your post expresses my feeling. Like you, I gave up 950 last week, and bought a Rotel 1066 instead. I have waited 950 for months, and cannot wait any longer. But, do not give me wrong. I still believed in e-business. It cuts a lot of overhead which reflects to the price, and benefits the customers like you and me. I agree with you. Outlaw makes a bad example on 950. I put a lot of faith on 950. However, through so much pain on waiting for months, I finally finally finally give up, and go to Rotel although 1066 costs 50% ($1350 v.s. $900) more the 950.


Outlaw,

I like your business type. I checked your website several times a day. Good service and good product with reasonable price. I have shopped several audio stuff through internet over years, and it really saves me a lot of money. Unfortunately, I cannot wait any longer on 950. If I could get a 950 last week, I would stay with you but .... I have to say bye-bye to you for a while (maybe a few years). Good luck.

Bye ...

James

James, very nicely said, I hope you have many good hours of sound with your new purchase. Keep watching the Outlaw site, I understand some other (new) products will come. And mayhap one which will fill a niche in the rack for you!

Enjoy!

…the above more genuinely reflects SLL on her ‘normal’ days when she has not just come off a ‘man bashing’ spree.

SLL, how about---Mary???

I do answer to that quite frequently

Lena, my sarcastic comment was directed primarily against the Jeff who started this thread; it's mostly coincidence that it could also have been read as applying to your post. Sorry.

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

"the advantages of the particularly advantageous"
"previously equivalent compatriots"

Since I spit that all out in about 30 seconds with some hard hitting fingers, - and reread the next morning and once I got to that last line.
I laughed
It was like I tacked on….”and I WONT eat my peas either”.

SLL -

I think your problem is that you are probably a very good typist, and can put "thought to paper" very quickly. If you were a slogging neanderthal at a keyboard like me you would have to read and re-read what you just typed, and would have discovered, "Oh, that's not me." regardless of how much inhibition reducing agent you had consumed and cried in or your current opinion of the opposite sex.

Please keep your name. I will take your word that you are small, and I am certain you are smart. You are certainly always a good read. I will correct you on one item, though. You used the word "cue", but it the context you used it, it's spelling is "queue". While this message probably would've taken you 30 seconds to post, it has taken me the better part of 10 minutes to compose. The worst part is that in addition to being slow, also being a male I am incapable of multitasking, so I could do nothing else while it took me the 10 minutes to compose this. Does that explain why you think we are always late?

Geez, and even after 10 minutes I couldn't get it posted without a typo...

i agree with skyfish completely...(sucking my thumb and twirling my hair...typing with elbows)

I never have to worry about typing too fast...I have the Simpson's-itist..."Your fingers are too larger for the keypad, please mash the keys for assistance!"

A matter of interpretation.

To have as instrument for exploring what supplemental relations may be introduced, (what your trying to type) it is suggested that in living systems there is active a faculty (a brain) not recognized in the current physical picture (the computer), which induces decisions or choices between alternatives (the keys). Such a hypothesis will enable us to construct a link between mental activities (what you want to say) if we assume that the transmission conduit (the keys) is the carrier of aspects (what you type) received and subjectively reevaluated by the targeted faculty (the other persons brain) slightly altering the intent of the original faculty by a factor as small as Xx2 or as great as Y. In view of the continuity of all communication, we assume that expressions of these activities even while reconstituted to varying degrees by the subjective applications of the receiving faculty continue to present enough of the original materials intent when retrieved as to effect an exchange.

…elbows and small displays of spelling/grammatical errors, females and males allowed.

What???

I take it back. I don't believe you're little...

...ahhhhhhhh.....she's an attorney

Wait a minute, "Smart Little Lena" is a HE-horse?

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

Yes, he’s a stud. His name comes to mind quickly (to me) as he’s famous along with Doc Bar & Poco Bueno and other lines in recent years in cutting. Since I was thinking along cutting lines that night I could have considered any of the following mares names of which none are objectionable:

Buena Scoots - Miss Dual Doc - Hyglo - Little Del Ria Meradas - Sugar Minx –Trona - and Chickasha Glo

Or I could have picked one of these (the minds of men turning in papers to AQHA without females around to guide them boggels me)

Doc a Patty Cake - Doc’s Painted Lady - Foxy Freckles - Bar Socks Babe - Purdy Pistol - Shes Za Travelen - Rubys No Angel - Playboys Joyride - Handle this Kitten - Jezabell Quixote - Little Belly Button - Cats Barbie Doll - Debra Dun It

And my # 1 pick: ( this poor filly was really registered this way )
Judge my Fannie

I don’t know somehow even though he was a "He", “Smart Little Lena” didn’t sound so bad that night.

Given the other contenders you did just fine.....

I see that horse naming can get just as ridiculous as purebred dog naming! For example you could have been saddled(pun intended) with the name my wife gave our Great Dane which is ANIMIKIWANAKWAD. It is Ojibway for black heavy cloud or thundercloud, so named since she is black and very big. Thank heaven we call her Ani 99.99% of the time.

------------------
m-mmeyer

None of which is as silly as naming audio/video/home theater products...


ARF ARF says Iggy (jumping down off the keyboard as his master approaches)

What really bothers me is that Outlaw is now advertising the amp as available(in audio mags) which it is no where near available. I read promos in the audio mags about the 950 being available...IT ISN'T! Then I come on the Outlaw website and the home page announces "now shipping". If it is now shipping then send me one...no I'm told it will be another 2-3 months if I'm an optomist. Then Scott refers to keeping us informed via the monthly newsletters. Has amyone out there received a monthly newsletter each month??? Not me... I've gotten 3 since Spring(one was when I ordered.
I've been enjoying my 1066 for several months now...it's available - I've even seen some great prices on the web.
If a company can't sell me something and can't tell me when they can sell me something then it's NOT AVAILABLE and they shouldn't advertise it as such.

"What really bothers me is that Outlaw is now advertising the amp as available(in audio mags) which it is no where near available. I read promos in the audio mags about the 950 being available...IT ISN'T! Then I come on the Outlaw website and the home page announces "now shipping"." If it is now shipping then send me one...no I'm told it will be another 2-3 months if I'm an optomist. Then Scott refers to keeping us informed via the monthly newsletters. Has amyone out there received a monthly newsletter each month??? Not me... I've gotten 3 since Spring(one was when I ordered.

I've been enjoying my 1066 for several months now...it's available -"

Sounds to me by the fact your posting this here, you must not be "enjoying" your 1066 enough! Is your plan to add a 950 at home too? If not, dude, why the stress? You should enjoy what you've got and just leave the rest.

Steve:

Funny, we've all gotten more than a few newsletters over the past few months. In fact, one just popped into my master's mailbox yesterday. I've seen all the newsletters posted here and in places like HTF, so have you not been looking?

But what do I know, I'm only a dog.

ARF ARF, says Iggy

Yeah, while I'm sure that the 950 delay was due to genuinely unforeseen glitches, the outlaws have shown a clear pattern of "optimistic" estimates. Their change in communications strategy would seem to be indicative of their having learned the perils of optimism in engineering. Nonetheless, old habits apparently die hard.

Hopefully, they're beginning to understand that:

1) if you say nothing (or very little), people will hate you a little bit. Later, when the product shows up at their door, they will love you.

2) if you say something that turns out to be wrong, people will love you a little bit immediately, then hate you more later. When the product shows up at their door, however, most will still love you.

3) if you say lots of things that turn out to be wrong, people will love you briefly for each one, but grow jaded and bitter as they begin to wonder whether you might be saying these things on purpose. Many people will still eventually buy the product and love you (or at least the product). Others will remain bitter for a long time. And rightly so.

[This message has been edited by neuroaudio (edited September 10, 2002).]

Well Said neuoaudio!!

Is that from ancient Chinese Proverbs?

Neuro, you just described politicians.


Steve, if you are into proverbs how about this one,
"Stay with the measurer until he reaches the door."
"He who gets in between the onion and its shell shall come out with its stinking smell."
"Patience is a virtue."
"Yanking on a dog's ears is no more foolish than interfering in an argument that isn't any of your business."
"If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all and go listen to your 1066 and relax."
OK, the last one I changed a bit.

Well today I sent in a survey to a magazine that enters me into a drawing to win an Outlaw home theater system with a 950 and 755. Drawing is in Oct. If I win (or whoever)...wonder if I will get a 950 before some folks on the list or will have to wait indefinitely for the prize????
BTW - everbody who is waiting for a 950 just moved up one spot as I took my name off the list.

Good proverbs and advice. To those who wish to forum fight: Im not bashing the 950 as from all I can ascertain it is a very good value for what you get. I wanted to buy one. They are just not available to purchase and I get irked by seeing repeated messages that it is available. I'm burned out on hypocracy and BS(live in Wash DC area). There is also something about the excitement and hype created for something that goes unavailable for months. Haven't people been waiting since last Dec.??

I have been enjoying the 1066 especially with music. I haven't even visited this site in over a month. I picked up a Parasound 2 chan. amp(used), Maggie speakers(used) and a new Njoeb Tjoeb 4000 cd player. Using the 1066 zone 2 pure stereo output, I'm enjoying the best music that I've ever had in my home...quiet,full detailed. All except the 1066 was bought on the net. Anyone wanting a great cd player value check out the Njoeb Tjoeb. Tube output section is awesome.
I'll go back into my cave now and listen to some music.

Steve: Wow. I like your 2 channel setup. However, such gear deserves a more transparent preamp as the 1066s analog stereo inputs pass through more than the volume control. Additionally, using the Zone 2 output may degrade the sound even more. I'd recommend that you find a $375 Sony TAP-9000es and use it for your nice 2 channel system. Of course, the P9K also give you the option to switch 5.1 ch inputs and also provides for a completely passive 5.1 bypass input for your 1066's output.
Good Luck!

Merc - What do you mean it's passing more than the signal through?? Zone 2 is 2 chan only with no controls except volume. It won't pass anything but analog inputs through to zone 2. There's absolutely no noise with ear to speakers or Maggies. You really think that Sony pre-amp will sound even better. I realize it can always be better if you spend more money but I can't imagine it being a whole lot better. My zone 2 is in different room.

Hi Steve,
Sorry, if I was incorrect about the zone 2. I assumed it was handled just like the primary output. Although I had a 1066 for a short time, I did not try the zone 2 output. Are you sure that it will not pass a signal from a source which is digitally inputted? Anyway, IMO, you still would probably be better off, with your nice gear, passing your 2 channel through a dedicated 2 channel. I only recommended the P9K due to its' high reviews, stereophile A rating, my experience with it, and of course, its' low cost.